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is Canaanites/Phoenicians a Paternal ancestry or a cultural phase ? are Lebanese Semitic or not ?

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
" the Phoenician alphabet is the same as the alphabet used by King Solomon as well as the same alphabet of the Samaritan Torah which the oldest text of the Torah only indicates at the fact that the Phoenicians were The Hebrews and that they were also the Israelites "

The Jews of today use Arabic cuisine and even claim it as israeli cuisine - that dose not mean they are Arabs nor inventors of the Arabic cuisine which also has Arabic names not Jewish ( this cuisines evolved in the Arabic phase&culture ) .
Fine, good to know that you never read a book of history so I excuse myself from continuing in the discussion because I am sure you will not know what I am talking about.
Enjoy your thread
 

What

New Member
This explanation of the name Phoenician is not accurate and there are no Greek sources that confirm that the word Phoenician is indicative of a dye.
It is more plausible to say that the name is derived from the word phenom or phonetics.
The fact that the Phoenician alphabet is the same as the alphabet used by King Solomon as well as the same alphabet of the Samaritan Torah which the oldest text of the Torah only indicates at the fact that the Phoenicians were The Hebrews and that they were also the Israelites.

" Torah which the oldest text of the Torah only indicates at the fact that the Phoenicians were The Hebrews and that they were also the Israelites"

The Torah claim that the israelite's are the Children of Abraham , However based on Y-dna we know for a fact that Jews are not the Children of Abraham - Jews are also converts to Judaism like any other religion - nothing special .
 

Myso

Active Member
Orange Room Supporter
A lot of things to comment on. I'll try to be brief.

(1) Recent Genetic studies disprove your hypothesis here. E.g Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture. Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture Maronites (and Druze) cluster together. While Lebanese Muslims cluster a bit further away. So two Maronites would naturally be genetically closer to each other and identifiable. (Even through a 23andme test).

(2) Abraham is not a historic figure. Abraham is an alteration of the Hindu "Brahma" and his wife Sarah is an alteration of goddess Saraswati. It's also interesting that Mohammad referred to the Kaaba as a house built by Abraham when it's a Hindu temple, the black stone structure being a common structure in Hindu temples to identify a goddess' vagina.

(3) 25% of Lebanese do hold Phoenician ancestry but through mixing. Many original Lebanese came down from Anatolia and nearby areas originally. So I wouldn't say Lebanese are Phoenicians, Crypiots or Arabs. But basically a mixture that created a new identity. Moreover, in the crusades, not many of the populace was affected. Something like less than 2% if I remember correctly. So the high concentration of European genes in Christians and Druzes would be from the period of migration down from Europe into the Lebanese mountains to avoid persecution.
 

Myso

Active Member
Orange Room Supporter
(3) 25% of Lebanese do hold Phoenician ancestry but through mixing. Many original Lebanese came down from Anatolia and nearby areas originally. So I wouldn't say Lebanese are Phoenicians, Crypiots or Arabs. But basically a mixture that created a new identity. Moreover, in the crusades, not many of the populace was affected. Something like less than 2% if I remember correctly. So the high concentration of European genes in Christians and Druzes would be from the period of migration down from Europe into the Lebanese mountains to avoid persecution.

Also at the time, the Proto-Druzes would have been Christians, Jews and Pagans. They started/created secret societies when they were in Lebanon.
 

Myso

Active Member
Orange Room Supporter
Also, probably many people on here post about genetics. But if Lebanese were that interested in the subject and do genetic tests, I'm pretty sure Arabism would die in Lebanon. Especially in the Druze community.
 

The_FPMer

Well-Known Member
This explanation of the name Phoenician is not accurate and there are no Greek sources that confirm that the word Phoenician is indicative of a dye.
It is more plausible to say that the name is derived from the word phenom or phonetics.
The fact that the Phoenician alphabet is the same as the alphabet used by King Solomon as well as the same alphabet of the Samaritan Torah which the oldest text of the Torah only indicates at the fact that the Phoenicians were The Hebrews and that they were also the Israelites.
The Phoenicians were Canaanites. Israelites were Canaanites as well. It is the opposite of what you are saying. It is biblical Hebrew that was taken straight from Phoenician, not the other way around. Judaism and Greek mythology were strongly influenced by Canaanite/Phoenician dieties.
 

The_FPMer

Well-Known Member
A lot of things to comment on. I'll try to be brief.

(1) Recent Genetic studies disprove your hypothesis here. E.g Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture. Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture Maronites (and Druze) cluster together. While Lebanese Muslims cluster a bit further away. So two Maronites would naturally be genetically closer to each other and identifiable. (Even through a 23andme test).

(2) Abraham is not a historic figure. Abraham is an alteration of the Hindu "Brahma" and his wife Sarah is an alteration of goddess Saraswati. It's also interesting that Mohammad referred to the Kaaba as a house built by Abraham when it's a Hindu temple, the black stone structure being a common structure in Hindu temples to identify a goddess' vagina.

(3) 25% of Lebanese do hold Phoenician ancestry but through mixing. Many original Lebanese came down from Anatolia and nearby areas originally. So I wouldn't say Lebanese are Phoenicians, Crypiots or Arabs. But basically a mixture that created a new identity. Moreover, in the crusades, not many of the populace was affected. Something like less than 2% if I remember correctly. So the high concentration of European genes in Christians and Druzes would be from the period of migration down from Europe into the Lebanese mountains to avoid persecution.
Recent studies have shown that Phoenician is highest marker among Lebanese. Phoenician/Canaanite is the native and original culture of the land. It is not imported by a foreign invader, like everything that came afterwards, from Hellenization all the way to Arabism in the present moment. Dabke for example, unlike what many state that it's an arabic dance, it was a Phoenician ritual to weed off evil spirits. Even in Hebrew, the root word for it is dibuk, which simply means "Possession".
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
.
The Phoenicians were Canaanites. Israelites were Canaanites as well. It is the opposite of what you are saying. It is biblical Hebrew that was taken straight from Phoenician, not the other way around. Judaism and Greek mythology were strongly influenced by Canaanite/Phoenician dieties.
The Phoenicians are the Israelites who invented these dieties because they worshiped idols. Even the Bible says that the Israelites worshiped Baal and Ashtar, or Ashtarout. The Israelites were idolaters. They were not Jews. Only the a Samaritan Israelites were monotheistic and thanks to them we have the Phoenician i.e. Paolo-Hebrew Torah preserved in the Phoenician alphabet.
We know about the Canaanites from the Torah. If you have a text that mentions them outside the Torah, I would like to know what it is.
Is there any text written about the Canaanites and was preserved to confirm your theory? The answer is no.
The only tex available to us and is speaking about the Canaanites is the Torah, which was written in the Phoenician alphabet, same alphabet used by King Solomon.
I would like to see the texts written by these Canaanites which proves that it is them and not the Hebrews who invented the alphabet
The Canaanites had no alphabet and the only source that speaks about them is the Torah is a fact.
 

What

New Member
A lot of things to comment on. I'll try to be brief.

(1) Recent Genetic studies disprove your hypothesis here. E.g Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture. Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture Maronites (and Druze) cluster together. While Lebanese Muslims cluster a bit further away. So two Maronites would naturally be genetically closer to each other and identifiable. (Even through a 23andme test).

(2) Abraham is not a historic figure. Abraham is an alteration of the Hindu "Brahma" and his wife Sarah is an alteration of goddess Saraswati. It's also interesting that Mohammad referred to the Kaaba as a house built by Abraham when it's a Hindu temple, the black stone structure being a common structure in Hindu temples to identify a goddess' vagina.

(3) 25% of Lebanese do hold Phoenician ancestry but through mixing. Many original Lebanese came down from Anatolia and nearby areas originally. So I wouldn't say Lebanese are Phoenicians, Crypiots or Arabs. But basically a mixture that created a new identity. Moreover, in the crusades, not many of the populace was affected. Something like less than 2% if I remember correctly. So the high concentration of European genes in Christians and Druzes would be from the period of migration down from Europe into the Lebanese mountains to avoid persecution.

WTF :

1- Fact : cluster is not paternal ancestry - cluster = exchanging women with your neighbour----- by contrast : Y-DNA is ancestry ( your origin ) the real deal , and this is what i am talking about ( Many people want to avoid Y-dna because it undermines the cluster identity aka exchanging women identity which is associated with geographic settlement/and thus naturally exchanging women ) .

2- Most of Mideastern Arabs (in Arabia & Levant) have the same Paternal ancestry aka Y-dna J - they also speak the same language , have the same religion and culture, driven from Islam ( Islam crated the Arab world this is why Tribalistic Lebanese Christians strongly oppose the Arab identity/language and support the Aramaic language since they believe its associated with the Christian religion - although even Aramaic and all the Semitic languages were spreed by the ancestors of Arabian/ haplogroup J1 )----- haplogroup J1 is not originally Semitic , the ancestors of Mideastern people are not originally Semitic .

From all of haplogroup J1 lineages , only FGC11 and L93 are related to Arabic speaking people as it seems to be unique in Arabian peninsula and North Africa. And it means that most of Arabic tribes, who are of FGC11 lineage, descend from a unique male who lived in the Levant 4600 years ago, and moved southwards. What makes it strange is the fact that, except FGC11, all other lineages of J1 are speakers of non-Semitic languages. This might be a clue that FGC11 lineage might have adopted Arabic and Canaanite languages 4000-4600 years ago. Our hypothesis for language replacement of J1-FGC11 from Sumerian to Hebrew and Arabic, which we call Semitic languages now, is based on historical events and records as well as genetics The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations

3- most of the population of Saudi Arabia are originally from the Levant Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with nearby regions.

4- Phenotype & Genetic cluster is pointless when it comes to Paternal ancestry ( origin ) - Genetic cluster is a sign of exchanging women & geographic settlement - There are European looking & Brown looking & black looking members of the Saudi Royal Family- that dose not mean they dont have the same Paternal ancestor their Autosomal DNA is different but their paternal ancestry is the same ( aka same Paternal Grandfather and this is what counts )

5- Phoenicians is cultural phase not a Paternal ancestry ( French and American are a cultural phase not ancestry or Paternal origin )
 
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What

New Member
Also, probably many people on here post about genetics. But if Lebanese were that interested in the subject and do genetic tests, I'm pretty sure Arabism would die in Lebanon. Especially in the Druze community.


Most of the Mideastern Arabs (in Arabia & Levant) have the same Paternal ancestry aka Y-dna J - so it wont undermine Arabism in fact Arabism is about uniting people in one culture , this was its strength - - - Islamist oppose Arabsim they want Islamism ( uniting Muslim under Islam ) - Islam is against Arabism but not Arabic

in short Arabic united most members of the Y-dna J family - Haplogroup J is a prevalent Y-chromosome lineage within the Near East and Arabia .
 
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What

New Member
Also at the time, the Proto-Druzes would have been Christians, Jews and Pagans. They started/created secret societies when they were in Lebanon.

That's your opinion not a fact - this opinion is driven by the desire of aligning Christians Jews with the Druzes vs Muslims .
 

What

New Member
A lot of things to comment on. I'll try to be brief.

(1) Recent Genetic studies disprove your hypothesis here. E.g Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture. Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture Maronites (and Druze) cluster together. While Lebanese Muslims cluster a bit further away. So two Maronites would naturally be genetically closer to each other and identifiable. (Even through a 23andme test).

(2) Abraham is not a historic figure. Abraham is an alteration of the Hindu "Brahma" and his wife Sarah is an alteration of goddess Saraswati. It's also interesting that Mohammad referred to the Kaaba as a house built by Abraham when it's a Hindu temple, the black stone structure being a common structure in Hindu temples to identify a goddess' vagina.

(3) 25% of Lebanese do hold Phoenician ancestry but through mixing. Many original Lebanese came down from Anatolia and nearby areas originally. So I wouldn't say Lebanese are Phoenicians, Crypiots or Arabs. But basically a mixture that created a new identity. Moreover, in the crusades, not many of the populace was affected. Something like less than 2% if I remember correctly. So the high concentration of European genes in Christians and Druzes would be from the period of migration down from Europe into the Lebanese mountains to avoid persecution.


" Abraham is not a historic figure "


No one can say he didn't exist- his story has been exaggerated and fabricated but even the stories of Jesus and prophet Mohamed and Ali - have been exaggerated and fabricated ( Muslim scholars have always acknowledge this ) yet they are factual historic figure , documentation was easier in their times then Abraham times but it was not perfect either .
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
That's your opinion not a fact - this opinion is driven by the desire of aligning Christians Jews with the Druzes vs Muslims .
The Druz and all Mowahedin in the Mohamadean sectarian practices were Jews who believed that Mohamed was a prophet and they also did not have to convert into any thing new by accepting the prophecy is not an opinion. It is documented in historiography. Mohamed did not bring a religion called Islam. Islam was written in Khorasan.
Only when Zoroastrian converts into Islam invented the Shafeii sect in Nishapur in Iran which was countered by the Muslim Orthodox who were Christian Orthodox converts in Constantinople, that Jews who accepted the prophecy of Mohamed were persecuted and went underground.
All so called Shi'a sects today were sects developed by Jewish converts except the Twelver Shi'a of Iran. They were Zoroastrian converts like the Shafeii.
 

What

New Member
The Druz and all Mowahedin in the Mohamadean sectarian practices were Jews who believed that Mohamed was a prophet and they also did not have to convert into any thing new by accepting the prophecy is not an opinion. It is documented in historiography. Mohamed did not bring a religion called Islam. Islam was written in Khorasan.
Only when Zoroastrian converts into Islam invented the Shafeii sect in Nishapur in Iran which was countered by the Muslim Orthodox who were Christian Orthodox converts in Constantinople, that Jews who accepted the prophecy of Mohamed were persecuted and went underground.
All so called Shi'a sects today were sects developed by Jewish converts except the Twelver Shi'a of Iran. They were Zoroastrian converts like the Shafeii.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


it reminds me of the many anti Islam propaganda :

The catholic Church invented Islam

Jews invented Islam

The Aliens came and invented Islam :finger:

And now your unsound hypothetical Trolish propaganda . :woot::wtf::yuck:
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


it reminds me of the many anti Islam propaganda :

The catholic Church invented Islam

Jews invented Islam

The Aliens came and invented Islam :finger:

And now your unsound hypothetical Trolish propaganda . :woot::wtf::yuck:
ما قلتلك انه ما فيك تعقلها معي
 

What

New Member
A lot of things to comment on. I'll try to be brief.

(1) Recent Genetic studies disprove your hypothesis here. E.g Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture. Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture Maronites (and Druze) cluster together. While Lebanese Muslims cluster a bit further away. So two Maronites would naturally be genetically closer to each other and identifiable. (Even through a 23andme test).


" So two Maronites would naturally be genetically closer to each other and identifiable "

Not True since we are talking about Paternal ancestry (origins ) - and not Genetic cluster = which is associated with exchanging women and geographic settlement which obviously leads to exchanging women - however this dose not affect your Paternal ancestry (origins ) .

A Saudi J1 and a Maronite J1 will always have the same Paternal ancestor and thus closer to the Saudi in terms of paternal ancestry then to fellow Maronites who are not J1 - but ethnicity/identity is associated with cultural rather then origins - it can influence your - genetic cluster - if you exchange women frequently - however it has no affect on your origin (aka Y-dna) .
 
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What

New Member
It is already known & accepted by most of authorities that Abraham was originally from the city of Ur in Sumeria. So it is impossible for him to know Canaanite language when he lived in Sumeria ( a non Semitic speaking area/people of mostly J1 lineages ). It is thought that Terah, the father of Abraham, left Sumeria with his sons, Abraham & Haran, possibly 2000-2200 BC during the reign of Ur III. Historically, the Third Dynasty of Ur controlled the city of Ur and the southern Mesopotamia. In this sense, it might be supposed that the native tongue of Abraham was Sumerian ( A Non-Semitic-tongue ) before they settled in Canaan. You can read some verses from the Book of Genesis about Abraham and the city of Ur

[11:2] And as they migrated from the east, they came upon a plain in the land of Shinaar (Sumer) and settled there.
[11:26] When Terah had lived seventy years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
[11:27] Now these are the descendants of Terah. Terah was the father of Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran was the father of Lot.
[11:28] Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his birth, in Ur of the Chaldeans.
[11:29] Abram and Nahor took wives; the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor’s wife was Milcah. She was the daughter of Haran the father of Milcah and iscah. [11:30] Now Sarai was barreen; she had no child. [11:31] Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife, and they went out together from Ur of the Chaldeans to go into the land of Canaan; but when they came to Haran, they settled there. (Book of Genesis)


In the 11th chapter of Genesiss, it is told that Abraham’s ancestors settled in Sumeria (Sinear) after the flood. And later, they built a city there, and lived in Ur. The Gilgamesh book of Sumers also tells the Great Flood, and it is also thought by some authorities that Utnapishtim recorded in Gilgamesh was Noah, who survived a local flood around Mesopotamia or in the east. According to Islamic and Jewish resources, the Great Flood occurred in a specific region instead of all the world. In other words, it is thought that the Great Flood did not affect all the world. One of the earliest records about the Great Flood is also the Sumerian creation myth called the Eridu Genesiis.


in short : Abraham was unlikely a Semitic man
 
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Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
It is already known & accepted by most of authorities that Abraham was originally from the city of Ur in Sumeria. So it is impossible for him to know Canaanite language when he lived in Sumeria ( a non Semitic speaking area/people of mostly J1 lineages ). It is thought that Terah, the father of Abraham, left Sumeria with his sons, Abraham & Haran, possibly 2000-2200 BC during the reign of Ur III. Historically, the Third Dynasty of Ur controlled the city of Ur and the southern Mesopotamia. In this sense, it might be supposed that the native tongue of Abraham was Sumerian ( A Non-Semitic-tongue ) before they settled in Canaan. You can read some verses from the Book of Genesis about Abraham and the city of Ur

[11:2] And as they migrated from the east, they came upon a plain in the land of Shinaar (Sumer) and settled there.
[11:26] When Terah had lived seventy years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
[11:27] Now these are the descendants of Terah. Terah was the father of Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran was the father of Lot.
[11:28] Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his birth, in Ur of the Chaldeans.
[11:29] Abram and Nahor took wives; the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor’s wife was Milcah. She was the daughter of Haran the father of Milcah and iscah. [11:30] Now Sarai was barreen; she had no child. [11:31] Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife, and they went out together from Ur of the Chaldeans to go into the land of Canaan; but when they came to Haran, they settled there. (Book of Genesis)


In the 11th chapter of Genesiss, it is told that Abraham’s ancestors settled in Sumeria (Sinear) after the flood. And later, they built a city there, and lived in Ur. The Gilgamesh book of Sumers also tells the Great Flood, and it is also thought by some authorities that Utnapishtim recorded in Gilgamesh was Noah, who survived a local flood around Mesopotamia or in the east. According to Islamic and Jewish resources, the Great Flood occurred in a specific region instead of all the world. In other words, it is thought that the Great Flood did not affect all the world. One of the earliest records about the Great Flood is also the Sumerian creation myth called the Eridu Genesiis.


in short : Abraham was unlikely a Semitic man
FYI Sam is a biblical person whose decent and his offspring are only known to us from the Torah.
Your fallacy is situated in your assumption that the text is false but Abraham is True and without providing us with the counter text which falsifies the Text where Abraham exists you want us to imagine a scenario that makes an argument without providing material evidence to the contrary and also assume that it can be true.
If the Genesis is false then there was no Abraham, where else did you find out about Abraham. I am curious to know.
 

What

New Member
FYI Sam is a biblical person whose decent and his offspring are only known to us from the Torah.
Your fallacy is situated in your assumption that the text is false but Abraham is True and without providing us with the counter text which falsifies the Text where Abraham exists you want us to imagine a scenario that makes an argument without providing material evidence to the contrary and also assume that it can be true.
If the Genesis is false then there was no Abraham, where else did you find out about Abraham. I am curious to know.

" the Genesis is false - there was no Abraham "

Genesis might be exaggerated and has false information - but its not totally false - saying there was no Abraham is like saying their was no God - you simply cant prove it .
 

Myso

Active Member
Orange Room Supporter
Most of the Mideastern Arabs (in Arabia & Levant) have the same Paternal ancestry aka Y-dna J - so it wont undermine Arabism in fact Arabism is about uniting people in one culture , this was its strength - - - Islamist oppose Arabsim they want Islamism ( uniting Muslim under Islam ) - Islam is against Arabism but not Arabic

in short Arabic united most members of the Y-dna J family - Haplogroup J is a prevalent Y-chromosome lineage within the Near East and Arabia .

Modern research shows Druze came down from Anatolia. (Specifically Lake Van, Turkey today).
 
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