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is Canaanites/Phoenicians a Paternal ancestry or a cultural phase ? are Lebanese Semitic or not ?

What

New Member
Around 69% of the Saudi Arabia Y-chromosome pool could be considered of direct or indirect Levantine ascription ( Which is also Anatolian ) while 17% of the Saudi Arabia Y-chromosome pool is typical of Mesopotamia ( could also be considered Anatolian) , While the remainder 14% of Saudi Arabia Y-chromosome pool arrived from African ( Which could even be the source of Semitic ) .

Also Armenian = European ( not Mideast )

I would also add that most Saudis are likely ancient Sumerians ( who are also from the Levant + Mesopotamia ) who ultimately are associated with Anatolia .


Sumer was the southernmost region of ancient Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq and Kuwait) which is generally considered the cradle of civilization. The name means “land of the civilized kings”.
 
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What

New Member
Closer in origin that goes back 100,000 years? Perhaps. But why is that important?

it cant be 100,000 years --- its Just 5000 to 10,000 years - actually not a long time ----- its also important if you want to know your origin --- thus yes its important ----- but naturally you value your Druze ethnicity , and thus origins is not important to you .
 
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Myso

Active Member
Orange Room Supporter
I would also add that most Saudis are likely ancient Sumerians ( who are also from the Levant + Mesopotamia ) who ultimately are associated with Anatolia .


Sumer was the southernmost region of ancient Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq and Kuwait) which is generally considered the cradle of civilization. The name means “land of the civilized kings”.

Any citations on Saudis being Anatolian?
 

The_FPMer

Well-Known Member
Recent study proves the genetic similarities between Lebanese Christians, Druzes and Sephardic Jews. It also highlights that Lebanese Muslims are much more closer to Syrians and Arabs than Christians.

 

God+Blood+Cedar

New Member
What most people fail to realize is that Middle Eastern Semitic People are not originally Semites - they were Semitize ( it was part of the cycle of cultural shifts)

The oldest Midwestern Civilization is Sumer they were not Semitic, yet they are closely related to Saudis in fact almost identical .

in the end of the day Semitic is an offshoot of Afro-Asiatic (culture & language) which originated between Egypt and Sudan, by contrast the pre Semitic (culture & language) of the people of the Mideast was shaped in Asia far from Egypt & Sudan and Sumer is an example of many .


is Canaanites/Phoenicians a Paternal ancestry or a cultural phase ?

No, its not a Paternal ancestry ------ its a cultural phase of many cycle of cultural change that stooped with Arabic .

Lebanese have diverse Y-dna (Paternal Lineages) thus they simply don't have a common ancestor - they are mostly descendants of different migrant groups like New Yorkers, for example :

a Lebanese who is Y-dna J1 is closer to a Saudi Arabian Y-dna J1 or Kurdish Y-dna J1 then to other Lebanese who are not Y-dna J1

a Lebanese who is Y-dna J2 will always be closer to a Saudi Y-dna J2 or Kurdish Y-dna J2 then to other Lebanese who are not Y-dna J2


A Maronite Lebanese Who's Paternal Lineages are J2 is closer to a Sunni Saudi or Muslim Lebanese who is J2 ,,,, but a Maronite will always feel closer to a fellow Maronite (even if they realize that they don't share the same paternal Lineages ) then to a Muslim with the same paternal origins ----- because ethnic identity is shaped by mentality - that is shaped by the culture you are born in to & how your family & community raised you to identify with - in short you are born in to it , language is a form of communication not a blood - culture are costumes not blood - religion is culture spirituality you are born in to ( when you decide to change the identity you are born in to this is called cultural shift )


final note :

Autosomal DNA is associated with a certain period of history influenced by geography rather then Paternal origins , many genetic shows are based solely on it , which is very deceiving since they ignore Y-dna (Paternal Lineages) which is literally you real origin, the rest is a side show of geographic settlement history aka Autosomal DNA but not your origin
Your statement is full of anecdotes and speculation on your own part. Y chromosome DNA is not a perfect indication but on a macro level the analysis is more robust. J2 haploid is the largest portion of the current population of Lebanese (roughly 28%) the Lebanese population is far from homogeneous. J1 is the second largest.

As far as the origins of both....it has been demonstrated that both J1 and J2 share ancestry in the Caucuses region near Ararat and even north into Georgia. J1/J2 split occurs around 7000 years ago as J1 left the caucuses and migrated south to the Arabian peninsula... the J2 subsequently followed around 4000 years ago.
DNA wise, we cannot know for sure who are the Phonecians but based on the Mediterranean analysis (See Malta genetics and language) the J2 is the closest possible.

Does that mean all J2 are Phonecian? Absolutely not! In fact, the country with the largest population percentage of J2 is Dagestan. In my own anecdotal example, my family is Syriac and from Diar Bakr Turkey...Escape to Lebanon in 1915... and we are J2. I would never claim a Phonecian identity though the Phonecians probably shared lineage with my ancestors.

As a culture, Phonecian died long ago when Hannibal was defeated at Zama by Scipio Africanus. The Lebanese of today are a mixture of Greek/Roman, Anatolian/Turk And Arab culturally (not genetically)... though this is all being washed away by globalization monoculture of consumerism. The only indication left is that Lebanese seem to have retained some innate skill for being shady merchants as the Phonecians were...

Final point: it is utterly RIDICULOUS to claim pride of a people you descend from. Arabist, Phonecian revivalist, Hellenistic... all are yearning day dreamers. The Phonecians didn’t become a powerful empire by fawning over long dead ancestors. Culture is transient.., the ability to survive, prosper and thrive is what counts.
 

God+Blood+Cedar

New Member
it cant be 100,000 years --- its Just 5000 to 10,000 years - actually not a long time ----- its also important if you want to know your origin --- thus yes its important ----- but naturally you value your Druze ethnicity , and thus origins is not important to you .
You are correct in the time period... J1 J2 as separate groups did not appear until around 7-8000 years ago in the most widely accepted analysis. The split probably occurred between brother chieftains in what is now Armenia...J1 brother took his tribe and moved south into Mesopotamia. J2 brother stayed in caucuses. “Arabs” of the lower peninsula are just descents of Mesopotamians who left later on and moved further south.
 

Ice Tea

Active Member
Of course Lebanese Christians (and to a large extent, Durzis) largely descend from Canaanites. But I don't know why peopy focus so much on them. By the time of Jesus, the Canaanite language was already long dead, and the people of the Levant were speaking Aramaic. Until the 1800s people in Zagharta were still speaking the Syriac dialect of Aramaic in fact. Syriac is the culture identity of a Maronite, not Phoenician. I believe Syriac should be thought in all Christian schools, but if people are so eager to be 'Phoenician' they should just learn modern Hebrew instead, since it's basically the same Canaanite language as Phoenician.
 

Habibibi

New Member
what a perfect thread for me to repost a quote that I posted a while back in another thread ... this was taken from a book and the quote was actually said while discussing whether or not to allow Syrians to migrate...


"during the heated discussion surrounding the Immigration Bill–whose supporters sought to limit migration of non-Europeans–Senator Reed proclaimed that before WWI: “We got the trash of the Mediterranean, all that Levantine stock that churns around through there and does not know what its own ancestry is. It came here in large numbers from Syria…”

He was talking about lebanese and syrians (at the tine Syria and Lebanon were 1 country ruled by the turks and americans called us syrians) and by the responses ive seen on this board about this topic he was right about 1 thing. We really do not know what are own ancestry is...
 

Xynus87

New Member
The original Mideastern are most likely Y-dna J ( this includes original Lebanese ) the rest are immigrants.
That's too vague and wrong. First of all, the paleolithic (most ancient) Levantines were under haplogroup E-Z830, Natufian main clade. Actually, J lineages are the immigrant ones, as J1 came from Anatolian/Zagros pastoralists, and J2 likely came from Mesopotamia. If you want to check the real ancient Levantines they are under E-Z830, T-L206, L-M317 and G-P303 (Neolithic inhabitants, c. 7000 BCE). J came during the bronze age (c. 3300 BCE).
 

fidelio

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
That's too vague and wrong. First of all, the paleolithic (most ancient) Levantines were under haplogroup E-Z830, Natufian main clade. Actually, J lineages are the immigrant ones, as J1 came from Anatolian/Zagros pastoralists, and J2 likely came from Mesopotamia. If you want to check the real ancient Levantines they are under E-Z830, T-L206, L-M317 and G-P303 (Neolithic inhabitants, c. 7000 BCE). J came during the bronze age (c. 3300 BCE).

Ya3ni la fina n2ellak la2, wala fina n2ellak é...
 

Ice Tea

Active Member
Anyway, answering the OP's questions. The Canaanite ancestry of Lebanese Christians is obviously a genetic one, both paternally and maternally. We're close to being 100% Canaanite genetically, as genetic studies have proved. When it comes to genetic cluster we're closest to other Levantine Christians, the Samaritan people of Israel and the Druze.

Culturally speaking, the Dabke dance is of Canaanite origin. But that is obviously not enough to make one identity as Canaanite. Jews preserved the Canaanite language and some Canaanite/Israelite holidays but they don't identify as such.

Like I said in an earlier post, the true identity of all Levantine Christians is Syriac. In fact the word Syrian was synonymous with Christian until the rise of pan-Arabism when Muslims also started identifying as 'Syrian'. Pan-Arabism was invented by some Christians as a mechanism of self-defense against much more dangerous pan-Islamism, so the connotation of the word Syrian changed from exclusively Christian to broadly 'Arab'.

Nowadays how Lebanese Christians identify as has to with which Church they belong to. Maronites are completely aware of their Syriac tradition, while some Rums still believe they are Arab or even Greek in origins. Anyway, despite that we all share a Christian culture and identity that is shared by all MENA Christians. A Lebanese Christian, no matter what sect, will always feel closer to an Assyrian, an Armenian or a Copt than to their Muslim neighbour. We see Muslims as strangers in our land, or more precisely we feel as strangers in our own land when we are surrounded by Muslims.
 

Xynus87

New Member
Anyway, answering the OP's questions. The Canaanite ancestry of Lebanese Christians is obviously a genetic one, both paternally and maternally. We're close to being 100% Canaanite genetically, as genetic studies have proved. When it comes to genetic cluster we're closest to other Levantine Christians, the Samaritan people of Israel and the Druze.

Culturally speaking, the Dabke dance is of Canaanite origin. But that is obviously not enough to make one identity as Canaanite. Jews preserved the Canaanite language and some Canaanite/Israelite holidays but they don't identify as such.

Like I said in an earlier post, the true identity of all Levantine Christians is Syriac. In fact the word Syrian was synonymous with Christian until the rise of pan-Arabism when Muslims also started identifying as 'Syrian'. Pan-Arabism was invented by some Christians as a mechanism of self-defense against much more dangerous pan-Islamism, so the connotation of the word Syrian changed from exclusively Christian to broadly 'Arab'.

Nowadays how Lebanese Christians identify as has to with which Church they belong to. Maronites are completely aware of their Syriac tradition, while some Rums still believe they are Arab or even Greek in origins. Anyway, despite that we all share a Christian culture and identity that is shared by all MENA Christians. A Lebanese Christian, no matter what sect, will always feel closer to an Assyrian, an Armenian or a Copt than to their Muslim neighbour. We see Muslims as strangers in our land, or more precisely we feel as strangers in our own land when we are surrounded by Muslims.
What you just said is based on pure bias and pro-sectarian ideas. Lebanese Muslims are just as native to Lebanon as Christians. "Our Land" is OUR land, Christians, Muslims or Druze..
 

Xynus87

New Member
I would also add that most Saudis are likely ancient Sumerians ( who are also from the Levant + Mesopotamia ) who ultimately are associated with Anatolia .
No proof whatsoever. Sumerians remained in Mesopotamia. Also Sumerians were made of genetic components called Iran_N and Levant_N. And Iran_N was quite distinct from Anatolia_N.
 

Ice Tea

Active Member
What you just said is based on pure bias and pro-sectarian ideas. Lebanese Muslims are just as native to Lebanon as Christians. "Our Land" is OUR land, Christians, Muslims or Druze..


It's not about genetic origins or stuff like that, we're not race-obsessed like that in real life. Levantine Christians are actually one of the least racist people on Earth, hence we feel close even to Nigerian Christians since they share our struggle. While Muslims have always seen Africans as inferior and used to have slaves.

The main difference between a Lebanese Christian and a Muslim is CULTURE. Druze used to be inbetween but nowadays they are much closer to Christians. The Islamic culture is of such a violent magnitude that sometimes even tho we should be used to that after centuries of opression, we get shocked how violent they can be.
 

Xynus87

New Member
It's not about genetic origins or stuff like that, we're not race-obsessed like that in real life.
Which is quite odd because I never mentioned genetics or "race" - a useless social construct.
Levantine Christians are actually one of the least racist people on Earth, hence we feel close even to Nigerian Christians since they share our struggle.
Meanwhile a Muslim can state they also feel closer due to struggle with Cameroonian or Ethiopian Muslims.
While Muslims have always seen Africans as inferior and used to have slaves.
That explains why Africa houses millions of Muslims.
 

SAVO

Active Member
A Maronite Lebanese Who's Paternal Lineages are J2 is closer to a Sunni Saudi or Muslim Lebanese who is J2 ,,,, but a Maronite will always feel closer to a fellow Maronite (even if they realize that they don't share the same paternal Lineages ) then to a Muslim with the same paternal origins ----- because ethnic identity is shaped by mentality - that is shaped by the culture you are born in to & how your family & community raised you to identify with - in short you are born in to it , language is a form of communication not a blood - culture are costumes not blood - religion is culture spirituality you are born in to ( when you decide to change the identity you are born in to this is called cultural shift )

from a historical standpoint , maronites immigrated to lebanon from syria..
their maroun saint is from Mahrade town and they never made a secret about it ..
if theytafe discendency from assyrian people , that make sense since this map show the old assyrian empire geographical extension

1604190798970.png
 

Lebanon_not_Arabic

Well-Known Member
from a historical standpoint , maronites immigrated to lebanon from syria..
What were the name of their cities and villages in Syria?

The sect originated from actual Syria, not the people. Unless you have some historical documents talking about the exodus of the Maronites from their cities and villages in Syria.

Saint Maron and his disciples were from the Orontes area (in actual Syria). The sect originated from the Orontes area; and in the 5th century, Abraham of Cyrrhus (Saint Maron's first disciple) came to Afqa- Aqoura and converted the local inhabitants who were pagans. (The name "Nahr Ibrahim" (Adonis river) comes from Abraham of Cyrrus). After Abraham, many Maronite monks came from Syria to Lebanon and continued the conversion from Akkar passing by Jezzine and Tyre.

It is evident that although apostles and evangelists were "Syrians" but the population was "Lebanese".

90% of the toponym of our cities and villages are in Phoenician/Aramean and not in Syriac/Maronite, meaning that the population kept the original name of their villages even after the disciples of St Maron came in.

.
 

SAVO

Active Member
What were the name of their cities and villages in Syria?

The sect originated from actual Syria, not the people. Unless you have some historical documents talking about the exodus of the Maronites from their cities and villages in Syria.

Saint Maron and his disciples were from the Orontes area (in actual Syria). The sect originated from the Orontes area; and in the 5th century, Abraham of Cyrrhus (Saint Maron's first disciple) came to Afqa- Aqoura and converted the local inhabitants who were pagans. (The name "Nahr Ibrahim" (Adonis river) comes from Abraham of Cyrrus). After Abraham, many Maronite monks came from Syria to Lebanon and continued the conversion from Akkar passing by Jezzine and Tyre.

It is evident that although apostles and evangelists were "Syrians" but the population was "Lebanese".

90% of the toponym of our cities and villages are in Phoenician/Aramean and not in Syriac/Maronite, meaning that the population kept the original name of their villages even after the disciples of St Maron came in.

.
that was stated in the thread by me..all what u said above ..
i talked about the presence of arabic christian tribes in lebanon who apparently later converted to maronite ..u can contribute to the discussion here https://www.oroom.org/forum/threads/the-levant’s-dna-mosaic.55987/page-16#post-2176517
 

The Bidenator

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
that was stated in the thread by me..all what u said above ..
i talked about the presence of arabic christian tribes in lebanon who apparently later converted to maronite ..u can contribute to the discussion here https://www.oroom.org/forum/threads/the-levant’s-dna-mosaic.55987/page-16#post-2176517
I'll pass
 
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