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Islamic Fascism Creeping Into Lebanon

Red Phoenix

Legendary Member
#41
What concerns me, and the reason I started this thread, is that over time Muslims in Lebanon start behaving like Muslims in other countries.

Christians might get upset or offended by certain things but they won't physically threaten anyone.
Remember that time a retail shop was smashed and boycotted because it sold slippers from china that had cartoony gravestone on them that had a few crosses ?

Or that time a priest was beaten on his way to his show on telelumiere because he talked about secular values (i forgot his name)

Lebanese christians are very close to lebanese muslims when it comes to messing with their holy stuff

The inquisition the church launch against 'satanic' ppl and the arrests?

If a pub used a cross and someone had it on camera it would be shut down as well

And u know im no western hippy nor pro islam
 
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  • spacecreature

    Well-Known Member
    #42
    Did you ever ask yourself why would anyone want to portray the Holy Mother as a ... ?

    We understand our religion very well. And we understand why people go that far in attempts to throw mud at it. Our opposition to such nastiness goes beyond being offended.

    Furthermore, creativity has nothing to do with crudeness and ugliness. If you can't grab attention towards your work without shocking people with vulgarity, your work belongs in the garbage.
    I don't think you understood my idea. I will try again :) I was saying on a creative basis, like brainstorming, if you are not allowed to express "crudeness and ugliness" first, you won't be able to move on onto the more sublimated and sophisticated stuff. Hope it makes more sense to you now?

    And shocking people has always been the backbone of Art since like forever. In form/medium or in substance/theme . It's just that what used to shock us was nothing compared to what is needed now to have a similar impact.
    Madonna has built a career based on the shock factor, and no one can argue she is not an icon in modern pop culture and will definately go down in history as one. You might not like what she is offering, but she is still an artist. We are arguing about two different things, you are giving a judgement on the quality of art, I am talking about the freedom for it to exist, regardless of its quality or added value, even if you see it as garbage . I hope it makes more sense now.

    PS: I am Christian too and also love reading into conspiracies so I am aware the church is systematically being targeted, by the outside and also from within, for reasons we know and more reasons we might not know. The more you read into this stuff, the more intreaging it is. And Madonna could very well be a masonic illuminati devil worshipper b#$ch for all we know. But this should not be an excuse not to accept the points raised here, that most religious people have "fascist" tendencies . Maybe now it's the muslims time to overdoing it, as the Christians had more time to do it and can now move on and progress. Same concept mentioned before :)
     

    Ralph N

    Active Member
    #43
    Remember that time a retail shop was smashed and boycotted because it sold slippers from china that had cartoony gravestone on them that had a few crosses ?

    Or that time a priest was beaten on his way to his show on telelumiere because he talked about secular values (i forgot his name)

    Lebanese christians are very close to lebanese muslims when it comes to messing with their holy stuff

    The inquisition the church launch against 'satanic' ppl and the arrests?

    If a pub used a cross and someone had it on camera it would be shut down as well

    And u know im no western hippy nor pro islam
    My Hero



    Grégoire Haddad was a bishop and at some point Patriarch of the Melkite Greek Catholic Archeparchy of Beirut and Jbeil, yet he believed in secularism, was among the first to strike his religious affiliations from his civil records and supported civil marriage. He believed that the idea of a civil marriage is harder to apprehend among the Christians because Christian figures “feared loss of power and money” and asked Lebanese to fight for this idea.
    Known as the “Red Bishop”, Haddad received several warnings and threats for his daring take on several issues related to religion, politics and society in Lebanon and was once attacked by religious extremists. He fought for over 40 years against sectarianism and helped found the Civil Society, a secular socio-political movement.


    “If one is a true Christian, he should be able to accept people as they are, and if people wish to exist in a certain manner, then no one should deter them from doing so, and it is the state’s duty to provide them with the right laws to support their way of living. In the end, if one wishes to cross out their religion, it does not mean that they have lost faith, and a man should be valued because he is man and not because of the belief he practices.”
     

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    #44
    What concerns me, and the reason I started this thread, is that over time Muslims in Lebanon start behaving like Muslims in other countries.

    Christians might get upset or offended by certain things but they won't physically threaten anyone.
    it certainly depends on where the islamic religious authority resides, and this has always followed political influence across the islamic world. at times even when we had exceptional religious leaders like the late sayyed fadlallah, most shiites were following khumeini and khamini2i instead, because of the political influence iran exerted on the shiite street. saudis on the other hand have a different strategy and export their brand of islam to be distributed through the local mosque, and thus a new wave of wahhabi financed and wahhabi inspired imams springs out attracting many especially in the poorer neighborhoods.

    the Lebanese instability and the ongoing investment in the sunni/shiite strife is not helping things either and is severely impacting the identity of the Lebanese muslims, without mentioning some of the extremist ideologies imported by the syrian refugees which also leaves an impact on the Lebanese psyche.

    the liberal and open-minded muslims are under a tremendous scrutiny from their muslim compatriots, but in order for them to thrive and flourish, they need more factors and catalysts that currently are still missing from the equation, in particular the economic factors that are sending tripoli, the north, and the biqaa in to poverty, which plays to the favor of extremists and extremism.
     

    gramsci

    Legendary Member
    #45
    My Hero

    View attachment 10182

    Grégoire Haddad was a bishop and at some point Patriarch of the Melkite Greek Catholic Archeparchy of Beirut and Jbeil, yet he believed in secularism, was among the first to strike his religious affiliations from his civil records and supported civil marriage. He believed that the idea of a civil marriage is harder to apprehend among the Christians because Christian figures “feared loss of power and money” and asked Lebanese to fight for this idea.
    Known as the “Red Bishop”, Haddad received several warnings and threats for his daring take on several issues related to religion, politics and society in Lebanon and was once attacked by religious extremists. He fought for over 40 years against sectarianism and helped found the Civil Society, a secular socio-political movement.


    “If one is a true Christian, he should be able to accept people as they are, and if people wish to exist in a certain manner, then no one should deter them from doing so, and it is the state’s duty to provide them with the right laws to support their way of living. In the end, if one wishes to cross out their religion, it does not mean that they have lost faith, and a man should be valued because he is man and not because of the belief he practices.”
    a very hnoured person..
    a person that i had the honour to meet .
     

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    #46
    PS: I am Christian too and also love reading into conspiracies so I am aware the church is systematically being targeted, by the outside and also from within, for reasons we know and more reasons we might not know. The more you read into this stuff, the more intreaging it is. And Madonna could very well be a masonic illuminati devil worshipper b#$ch for all we know. But this should not be an excuse not to accept the points raised here, that most religious people have "fascist" tendencies . Maybe now it's the muslims time to overdoing it, as the Christians had more time to do it and can now move on and progress. Same concept mentioned before :)
    the points raised here and everywhere else should be accepted solely based on their rational value.

    in particular any discussion for religious fascism that is not tackled on an ideological level is simply meaningless because religions are defined and presented in terms of their ideology. how can fascism be attributed to a faith that shuns it by definition? fascism is in fact attributed to human nature, thus it is normal for it to manifest itself even when it goes against the very tenants of the faith, you will still find adherents pushing for it. in fact it is becoming very evident that fascism is more prevalent in atheist communities than it is in Christian churches, and by far.

    to market such statements btw is very dangerous, as it blends the wolves with the sheep, and you will be dressing religions that are fascists by nature with religion that pushes people to accept others and bond with them on a human level. you may have that statement with the best of intentions, but we cannot allow it to pass unnoticed :p

    now to your statement that nothing should be forbidden in arts, it is nothing short of a travesty, it is true that art should reflect our aspirations as human beings, and freedom is the leading criterion on that list, and it is true that everything which expands human knowledge into new territories sends can be shocking, however some things are very unacceptable in every field, even in porn you cannot but reject child pornography and bestiality. art aims to capture the best there is about human essence, human aspirations and human imagination ; beauty, harmony, creativity, etc.. and to push them to the next stage. to substitute these components for ugliness, disgust and chaos with a premeditated intention to offend, is no longer art, but rather a psychological sickness.
     
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    gramsci

    Legendary Member
    #48
    I couldn't meet him.... I wish I could...
    lets say he is one of very few in lebanon ,
    he had a futuristic and perfect vision of lebanon. and about interconfessionl dialogue.. through a secular vision--
    he separated the material necessity from human values an re organized it in his vision to built a correct society based on human values ..
    his ideas are a hope for any rebirth of the middle east diided among sects an war torn...must be tought in school instead of the religious lessons..

    he is a true christian ..
     

    spacecreature

    Well-Known Member
    #49
    ... because religions are defined and presented in terms of their ideology, the trend for fascism is in fact attributed to human nature, so even when religions do not nurture that ugly trait, you will still find adherents pushing for it. in fact it is becoming very evident that fascism is more prevalent in atheist communities than it is in Christian churches, and by far.
    In practical terms it's the religious people of concerned sects who reflect what a religion is all about, not just the books. Yes the books might say this or that (that's just philosophy) but that's irrelevant. If for example most muslims/jews/Christians insert religion behave a certain way, then you can safely attribute that trait to the religion in question. Religion is a practice, not just litterature for intellects to debate about!
    If most muslim girls are encouraged to wear a hijab, I don't care if the Coran doesn't clearly mention it, you can say Islam wants its women covered.
    So yes I agree with you that you can attribute fascism to human nature, but you can't dissociate the people from the religion. They ARE the religion.

    And yes I agree with you, atheism is just another religion plane and simple :)
     

    Weezy

    Well-Known Member
    #51
    What concerns me, and the reason I started this thread, is that over time Muslims in Lebanon start behaving like Muslims in other countries.

    Christians might get upset or offended by certain things but they won't physically threaten anyone.
    Muslims in Lebanon are no different from Muslims outside Lebanon
     

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    #52
    In practical terms it's the religious people of concerned sects who reflect what a religion is all about, not just the books. Yes the books might say this or that (that's just philosophy) but that's irrelevant. If for example most muslims/jews/Christians insert religion behave a certain way, then you can safely attribute that trait to the religion in question. Religion is a practice, not just litterature for intellects to debate about!
    If most muslim girls are encouraged to wear a hijab, I don't care if the Coran doesn't clearly mention it, you can say Islam wants its women covered.
    So yes I agree with you that you can attribute fascism to human nature, but you can't dissociate the people from the religion. They ARE the religion.
    even what you are claiming here is nothing but a core Christian concept, "you will know them by their fruits" "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." it is a recurring theme in Christianity. so you can rest assured that had you understood this delineation from its Christian perspective, you would not have been an outsider looking in, but rather you would have been effectively contributing from within to mend the ever existing gap between ideas and deeds.

    part of the reason why some Christians behave in a very unchristian like manner is that they have reduced their Christianity to nothing but a group identity to find strength in numbers, sprinkled with some rituals on top. but that again, and without going into much details, is another core principal in Christianity "You are the salt of the earth: but if the salt has lost its savor, how shall it be salted? it is thereafter good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men."

    the reality of the matter is that Christianity is by definition about endorsing perfect standards that are very impossible to meet, and given that perfection is a rather practical impossibility, Christians are not simply a rarity by definition, but rather theoretically speaking there can be no Christians at all. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

    additionally, it is nothing short of a severe fallacy when you attempt to redefine something by its opposite. it is very well understood that Christianity by definition is always meant to be a rarity even among those who call themselves Christians. you should know that as a Christian though, no?

    there are still other logical fallacies in your perspective. the majority of Christians are very accommodating and understanding. Christ is mocked around the clock and yet no throats are being slit and no threats are being distributed. the misleading accusation of fascism usually follow whenever Christians point out the errors in these ways, or speak in the defense or as witnesses to a given truth, and this is the least they should do. it is obvious though that these accusations are nothing short of bullying attempts to bring Christians into submission by people who find strength in numbers, not in truth, values and reason.

    And yes I agree with you, atheism is just another religion plane and simple :)
    every person believes in something, and by definition the word worship defines what that person holds as the most valuable. not subscribing to anything is also something that many people worship, to their own demise, i should sadly point out.
     

    Weezy

    Well-Known Member
    #53
    This is a thread to expose instances of Islamic fascism creeping into Lebanon. Here is a story that recently came out:

    A German DJ known for mixing live radio extracts into his sets was playing at a popular Lebanese club. While going through the radio channels, one of them happened to have a quran recitation, and a few seconds of it made it into the set. The DJ does not speak Arabic, so he had no idea.

    Some Muslims found a recording of that night and kept it for weeks, until ramadan, in order to make a big fuss about it. The DJ and the club apologized and explained it wasn't intentional, but the "offended" crowd had the club shut down anyway.

    In the comments' section, many Muslims are behaving as if it's impossible that a German DJ could not recognize a quran recitation. They grab the pitchforks right away, without asking themselves why in the world would the DJ intentionally do such a thing.

    There is even a Muslim woman who claims to be offended, but her profile pictures are of her wearing a revealing dress and swimming in a bikini.

    Punishing this act isn't Islamic fascism. This isn't Europe. Muslims will not tolerate such actions even if they do wear bikinis you stalker.

    There are 5 or 6 Mosques in downtown Beirut next to Garten. The management should know what's tolerable and what is not.

    I heard Future movement filed the lawsuit, well done Hariri 2018.
     

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    #54
    Muslims in Lebanon are no different from Muslims outside Lebanon
    Of course not. And i hope you understand this is not a compliment to a religion.

    This homogeneity explains the problem of Islam and the darkness the whole Islamic world lives in.

    Practiced Islam is notorious for erasing culture and dictating every step of your life through an absurd hadith and code that no one seems to understand or try to modernize. Everything is dictated, dress code, hair, food, language, to the ritual of the toilet. And everything is forbidden. Music, dancing, culture.

    Europe is rich through its diversity. Small countries with different customs, culture, languages.... This diversity explains tolerance and the flexibility of Christianity which offered Europe a religion without erasing their culture.
     

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    #55
    Muslims in Lebanon are no different from Muslims outside Lebanon
    That is unfortunate, but I appreciate your honesty. We certainly have our differences, but I prefer this honesty to crocodile tears and the "how dare you say such a thing about us" fake outrage show that people usually put on.

    Punishing this act isn't Islamic fascism. This isn't Europe. Muslims will not tolerate such actions even if they do wear bikinis you stalker.

    There are 5 or 6 Mosques in downtown Beirut next to Garten. The management should know what's tolerable and what is not.

    I heard Future movement filed the lawsuit, well done Hariri 2018.
    Why do you want to punish something that was done unintentionally?

    If you go to Japan or Russia or Peru or wherever, and you unknowingly do something culturally offensive, then apologize as soon as you are made aware of your mistake, would you like it if people kept treated you like you did it on purpose?
     

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    #56
    In practical terms it's the religious people of concerned sects who reflect what a religion is all about, not just the books. Yes the books might say this or that (that's just philosophy) but that's irrelevant. If for example most muslims/jews/Christians insert religion behave a certain way, then you can safely attribute that trait to the religion in question. Religion is a practice, not just litterature for intellects to debate about!
    If most muslim girls are encouraged to wear a hijab, I don't care if the Coran doesn't clearly mention it, you can say Islam wants its women covered.
    So yes I agree with you that you can attribute fascism to human nature, but you can't dissociate the people from the religion. They ARE the religion.

    And yes I agree with you, atheism is just another religion plane and simple :)
    You disprove your own point with the part in red :)

    Most Christians do not physically threaten anyone for offending their religious sensitivities. In fact, Christianity is the most mocked, ridiculed, under attack religion there is; yet, you will hardly find anyone being harmed for doing the mocking, ridiculing, and attacking (even though it is very intentional).
     

    Ralph N

    Active Member
    #57
    You disprove your own point with the part in red :)

    Most Christians do not physically threaten anyone for offending their religious sensitivities. In fact, Christianity is the most mocked, ridiculed, under attack religion there is; yet, you will hardly find anyone being harmed for doing the mocking, ridiculing, and attacking (even though it is very intentional).
    What about The Great Constantine? and what about the genocide we committed in the Amerikas?!! We were responsible for the death of 98% of the red indians do you know that? and Christopher Columbos said that they are nice people and they are very feeble people and simple people...
    The change that happened in Christianity is because they cannot bluff anymore so people went for science and medicine rather then voodoo kanoudou...

    Its not because we are great that we have diversities in our community its because we evolved...but it has little to do with religion... in fact if there was no revolution on religion people wouldnt have reached the moon or huble telescope wouldnt reach the end of our solar system....
     

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    #59
    What about The Great Constantine? and what about the genocide we committed in the Amerikas?!!
    The change that happened in Christianity is because they cannot bluff anymore so people went for science and medicine rather then voodoo kanoudou...
    You want to compare the actions of power-hungry monarchs from hundreds of years ago to the stances of islamic clergymen and regular Muslims today?
     
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