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Lassa Land Larceny: Patronizing Patriarch Postulate vs. Irate Indigenous Invaders

President-Elect Apo

Your will, my hands.
Orange Room Supporter
I don't underatand you. FPM takes a reasonable stance against a political relationship which is proving to have been counter-productive and you blast them for it? Nevermind the fact that you're mistaken regarding FPM supporters (hardcore or not, there has always been and will always be political differences within the FPM base), don't you think you're being critical just for the sake of it?

It took long to take such stance, they had no problem with its counter-productivity as long as it was netting them free state positions/ta3yinet/presidency...etc.. And no I'm not being critical for the sake of it, the u-turn in positions makes these critics legitimate.

Edit: PS: don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see FPMers realizing the gravity of the mistake they did by allying to HA. I'm just hoping it is out of experience and realizations after years of trials, and not just a seasonable change in mood before jumping back in their lap.
Since the best way to combat HA is denying them the internal shar3iyye and cover.

Aoun's position pre-2006 was erroneous, and the MoU came as a rectification of that. Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization.

I thought the whole legacy of Aoun was anti-Militias, and sorry but HA's behavior doesn't leave much room to avoid calling it like that... and as time goes, it shows that the pre-2006 Aoun was the best and correct version of Aoun.
 

Dr. Strangelove

Nuclear War Expert
Staff member
It took long to take such stance, they had no problem with its counter-productivity as long as it was netting them free state positions/ta3yinet/presidency...etc.. And no I'm not being critical for the sake of it, the u-turn in positions makes these critics legitimate.



I thought the whole legacy of Aoun was anti-Militias, and sorry but HA's behavior doesn't leave much room to avoid calling it like that... and as time goes, it shows that the pre-2006 Aoun was the best and correct version of Aoun.
It wasn't a U-turn, as if out of nowhere. You can criticize FPM for being too patient, but Bassil and the FPM have been warning Hezbollah things will come to this for years. I'm sorry, but there is nothing sudden, unreasonable or inconsistent with what is happening today. The relationship has not been severed, neither... In fact, we would gladly renew our understanding if Hezbollah finally committed to the cause.

As for your second paragraph, Hezbollah was viewed as a force of resistance, not a militia. Until the October 17 protests, Hezbollah was well-behaved in that respect, bar May 7 (which many still say was a necessary evil that helped avoid a civil war).
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Aoun's position pre-2006 was erroneous, and the MoU came as a rectification of that. Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization.

That's an oversimplification. You can't dismiss Aoun's former stance as an "erroneous position".

Aoun changed his opinion about HA overnight.
 

Dr. Strangelove

Nuclear War Expert
Staff member
Please tell me you are kidding. Are you denying the fact that the alliance with HA did set the path to the presidency?
Aoun deserved that position purely on the base that elected him. Hezbollah had another candidate in mind. Also, Aoun was eventually voted in by (almost) everyone, each for their own reasons to do so.

You chose your words carefully. "Set the path". I am not denying that, but "setting the path" does not equate with the accusation that the FPM got positions and appointments within government due to an unfair militant advantage provided by the MoU with Hezbollah.
 

Genius

Legendary Member
Aoun deserved that position purely on the base that elected him. Hezbollah had another candidate in mind. Also, Aoun was eventually voted in by (almost) everyone, each for their own reasons to do so.

You chose your words carefully. "Set the path". I am not denying that, but "setting the path" does not equate with the accusation that the FPM got positions and appointments within government due to an unfair militant advantage provided by the MoU with Hezbollah.

There is a definite part that was rightfully earned through elections and size.
However, the current situation in the country/region can minimize and overturn your rights as a party based on size, and constitution rights, and in other cases extend your power and reach.
I will give you the example of hariri, who based on elections and size, and through interpretation of our weird constitution and pact, should be a bigger weight than what he currently is. The iranian axis and weapons, have lopsided many decisions and power. Denying that FPM is riding this wave to its advantage is a bit naive.
 

Dr. Strangelove

Nuclear War Expert
Staff member
There is a definite part that was rightfully earned through elections and size.
However, the current situation in the country/region can minimize and overturn your rights as a party based on size, and constitution rights, and in other cases extend your power and reach.
I will give you the example of hariri, who based on elections and size, and through interpretation of our weird constitution and pact, should be a bigger weight than what he currently is. The iranian axis and weapons, have lopsided many decisions and power. Denying that FPM is riding this wave to its advantage is a bit naive.
It wasn't to its advantage at all, nor was that ever the goal of the MoU. That is precisely the point that I am trying to make. We can argue the wisdom of FPM's alliance with Hezbollah for hours, but at the end of the day it was a gambit in the hope of fixing this Godforsaken circus of a country, and that gambit failed.

Also, all that talk about Iran and weapons lopsiding power is bullshit as far as I am concerned. The so-called Iranian axis is counteracted by an equally powerful (on the local stage), equally (if not more) destructive Western axis. What is more, both sets of puppets belonging to these axes are in bed with each other. They are all part of the cancer that is killing this country.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
It wasn't to its advantage at all, nor was that ever the goal of the MoU. That is precisely the point that I am trying to make. We can argue the wisdom of FPM's alliance with Hezbollah for hours, but at the end of the day it was a gambit in the hope of fixing this Godforsaken circus of a country, and that gambit failed.

Also, all that talk about Iran and weapons lopsiding power is bullshit as far as I am concerned. The so-called Iranian axis is counteracted by an equally powerful (on the local stage), equally (if not more) destructive Western axis. What is more, both sets of puppets belonging to these axes are in bed with each other. They are all part of the cancer that is killing this country.

You are naive if you think that the West masterminded by the Jewish bankers accept anyone to stay aside and not collaborate and fight for them. See all those Lebanese Xians (from Batrak and even Free Patriot Movement) who rushed to bow and apologize from the American Safiha because of the perfectly Legal Work of the brave Judge Mazza7.
 

Dr. Strangelove

Nuclear War Expert
Staff member
You are naive if you think that the West masterminded by the Jewish bankers accept anyone to stay aside and not collaborate and fight for them. See all those Lebanese Xians (from Batrak and even Free Patriot Movement) who rushed to bow and apologize from the American Safiha because of the perfectly Legal Work of the brave Judge Mazza7.
I don't understand your point. Are you saying we HAVE to take a side, either with or against the USA?

If so, then you have to agree that a stance against the USA would be much more forecful if backed by a strong Lebanese state and a people that is not going hungry in the dark. That is why covering Berri's corruption AND waging a righteous resistance are completely incompatible.
 

Genius

Legendary Member
It wasn't to its advantage at all, nor was that ever the goal of the MoU. That is precisely the point that I am trying to make. We can argue the wisdom of FPM's alliance with Hezbollah for hours, but at the end of the day it was a gambit in the hope of fixing this Godforsaken circus of a country, and that gambit failed.

Also, all that talk about Iran and weapons lopsiding power is bullshit as far as I am concerned. The so-called Iranian axis is counteracted by an equally powerful (on the local stage), equally (if not more) destructive Western axis. What is more, both sets of puppets belonging to these axes are in bed with each other. They are all part of the cancer that is killing this country.

This talk is becoming very subjective. The western saudi axis was perhaps more prominent in the previous American and saudi administrations. Right now, the country is left to the iranian mullahs to toy around with. Macron came himself twice the duo didn't even flinch and spit on him and initiative.
The irony is that you deny the power to the iranian axis when at the same time complain that they hindered every attempt to fix anything that the country.

I respect the part at least where fpm admits a failure. That's a good start.
Hopefully a clearer vision next time. It was so very obvious that a foreign armed Islamist sectarian militia will not help build a country.
 

Dr. Strangelove

Nuclear War Expert
Staff member
This talk is becoming very subjective. The western saudi axis was perhaps more prominent in the previous American and saudi administrations. Right now, the country is left to the iranian mullahs to toy around with. Macron came himself twice the duo didn't even flinch and spit on him and initiative.
The irony is that you deny the power to the iranian axis when at the same time complain that they hindered every attempt to fix anything that the country.

I respect the part at least where fpm admits a failure. That's a good start.
Hopefully a clearer vision next time. It was so very obvious that a foreign armed Islamist sectarian militia will not help build a country.
It is not the Iranian axis which hindered the attempts to reform the country, but the mafia state. That includes everyone from Berri to Hariri to Joumblatt to their lapdogs and benefactors.

I do not deny their power either. I am denying they are solely in power.
 

Genius

Legendary Member
It is not the Iranian axis which hindered the attempts to reform the country, but the mafia state. That includes everyone from Berri to Hariri to Joumblatt to their lapdogs and benefactors.

I do not deny their power either. I am denying they are solely in power.

Had they decided to fight corruption, the wheel of reforms would have roared...

Yes the mafia state is the one directly responsible, overseen and protected by the ones carrying the weapons.
They have their reasons, they hint at shia unity, internal stability etc... but really, a strong state weakens the need and role of hizbulah. The weaker the state, the stronger they remain internally and internationally.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
I don't understand your point. Are you saying we HAVE to take a side, either with or against the USA?

If so, then you have to agree that a stance against the USA would be much more forecful if backed by a strong Lebanese state and a people that is not going hungry in the dark. That is why covering Berri's corruption AND waging a righteous resistance are completely incompatible.
You have a valid point. HA AND others including FPM didn't do enough to fight corruption.

I suggest that HA and FPM open a new page and work together for a valid and transparent plan to fight corruption without repeating the mistakes of the past and without spending our times in blaming each others for these mistakes. If HA and FPM have enough good will, this should succeed.

Some of these mistakes :
- MoF in the hand of Amal (I have always (sauf lorsque l'enjeu était de contrer les attaques contre la communauté Chiite) advocated that MoF be given to Charbel Nahhas)
- The failures of the Ministry of Justice (in the hand of FPM)
- FPM outlaw and sectarian decisions (FPM can't not respect the laws and the constitution and then blame HA for not stopping Berri filthy tricks)
 

Dr. Strangelove

Nuclear War Expert
Staff member
You have a valid point. HA AND others including FPM didn't do enough to fight corruption.

I suggest that HA and FPM open a new page and work together for a valid and transparent plan to fight corruption without repeating the mistakes of the past and without spending our times in blaming each others for these mistakes. If HA and FPM have enough good will, this should succeed.

Some of these mistakes :
- MoF in the hand of Amal (I have always (sauf lorsque l'enjeu était de contrer les attaques contre la communauté Chiite) advocated that MoF be given to Charbel Nahhas)
- The failures of the Ministry of Justice (in the hand of FPM)
- FPM outlaw and sectarian decisions (FPM can't not respect the laws and the constitution and then blame HA for not stopping Berri filthy tricks)
I share a lot of your sentiment, but out of genuine curiosity, where do you believe the FPM failed to respect the law?
 
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