Law to Strip MPs and Govt Officials Immunity From Prosecution in Fight Against Corruption in Lebanon

Do you support a law stripping all Lebanese officials immunity in order to fight corruption?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Rafidi

Legendary Member
I think we can have a second law to pardon for all financial crimes that have been committed previously, similar to the the pardon after the civil war for the warlords and their crimes against humanity. In doing that, we would strip MPs, ministers, the president, the PM of immunity from prosecution. While we would find it hard to fight corrupt officials from the past, such laws (to pardon past acts and to strip govt officials their immunity) will ensure a clean future for our country and our children. The immunity these guys have is an impediment to fight corruption. I started this thread as a sequel to the below posts in another thread:

(I would also ask the Mods to please include a poll to this thread with a simple yes or no question to know if members here support the motion to strip all govt officials immunity from prosecution. Do you support a law striping all Lebanese officials immunity to fight corruption?)

You like taking credit where you have none.

Berri is an MP first of all. That means he has immunity from prosecution. The fitnah mongering of FPMers to create problems between Amal and Hezballah will never bear any fruit. You're wasting your stupidity, which you imagine are clever tricks. You cannot prosecute Berri. If you want to, then work towards changing the law and dropping the immunity of MPs. That's actually very essential in fighting corruption. For as long as people are held as divine figures above the law and above prosecution, there will always be people who will do as they like and go free. That's the culture of impunity that actually exists in the heart and minds of the average Lebanese. We always imagine and want to assume some form of superiority and above the law mentally. It isn't only in Lebanon. Everywhere. We are also corrupt as a people even outside Lebanon. That feeling of being a special breed of dogs! And actually we are not. The moment the law is applied on all, no one will cover anyone. And you wouldn't need Hezballah to assume the roles of judefe and jury to prosecute anyone. It isn't the role of Hezballah to prosecute anyone. Hezballah has evidence against Saniora and they have handed the evidence to the judiciary. And today Saniora isn't an MP. He ceased being an MP because he did not contest to become one in last year's election.

So if anyone has evidence against Berri bring it forth. And it is paramount to change the law and strip MPs of their immunity. The world over or at least in most law abiding countries only presidents and PMs have immunity. Sadly, our system is sectarian. A Shia cannot be president or PM in Lebanon. The moment you draw a law to strip MPs of their immunity and you want the president and PM to have immunity, the Shia will insist the Speaker post is also granted immunity. So I think you should stop trying to belittle our intelligence. We aren't stupid people as you think or you're actually just acting stupid. Berri is above you. He will likely be speaker till he dies. He acts as one of the three presidents in Lebanon. Your aim at belittling him will cause reactions that you will not be pleased with. Trying Berri will mean trying Aoun and Hariri too. Stripping Berri's immunity will mean stripping Hariri and Aoun too. That's the level of Berri at the state and sect levels. Until he chooses not to be an MP and cease to be a speaker, then you can prosecute him. Until then stop making noise. And if you want to continue barking, at least grow some teeth which you can use to bite. That is: pass a law in parliament stripping everyone of immunity to prosecution. Let everyone from MPs, to ministers, to the speaker, to the PM, and to the president have no immunity from prosecution. That is how serious people fight corruption. Not by applying selective bias. Not by acting like children who do not understand the laws in the country.

And personally, I do think if we are to become a country of law and order, our officials have to be stripped of their immunity. This immunity they have is making them act like outlaws.

...Anyways, calling anyone fesid or whatever names, without having solid evidence and presenting it to the judiciary is just like releasing hot gas. You hit no nerve. Just the plain truth which you're allergic to. Fighting corruption shouldn't be selective or based on FPM alliances and friendship and modswings of FPMers. No one should be immune including the president, speaker and PM. That's the way forward if we are serious about fighting corruption and if we truly want to restore the people's confidence in the state; drop the immunity clause for all public and govt officials. Very simple to do. Insulting Berri will only lead to heighten sectarian tension. You insult Berri, the average Amal supporter will insult Aoun. To the average Shia, Aoun isn't superior to Berri. Aoun is president and not Berri by sectarian opportunity. Get that clear and start respecting Berri or at least, spare the president from counter insults. Or wait till Berri retires from politics like Saniora did and then open his files and have concrete evidence to handover to the judiciary. Stop accusing Hezballah or blackmailing Hezballah of being a state within a state, and then you shamelessly want Hezballah to prosecute people whom you do not like. Stop the FPM hypocrisy. We aren't all sheep.
 

HannaTheCrusader

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
shia
sunni
druze
basically the islamic axis and their christian controlled minions

will never allow that law to pass


tayyar the only party that has nothing to hide
 

Randomiser

New Member
you think berri/gebran/jumblat/hariri will stop stealing and corrupting everything in this country? you have more chances to convince people that earth is flat
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
I started this thread 7 months before the so called revolution or rather protests erupted in October 2019.

What has happened on this issue in parliament since then?

What has the FPM done in this regard? The FPM wants to fight corruption and is always preaching about fighting corruption. How can you fight corruption when some or most state officials have immunity against prosecution and they are the ones who commit or abet most of the most heinous and most hefty financial crimes or corruption? @SeaAb any thoughts?
 

أبو علي

Legendary Member
I started this thread 7 months before the so called revolution or rather protests erupted in October 2019.

What has happened on this issue in parliament since then?

What has the FPM done in this regard? The FPM wants to fight corruption and is always preaching about fighting corruption. How can you fight corruption when some or most state officials have immunity against prosecution and they are the ones who commit or abet most of the most heinous and most hefty financial crimes or corruption? @SeaAb any thoughts?

enou enta ma bteste7i man?

You support a party who make the same lies about fighting corruption meanwhile their biggest ally is the corrupt berri and at the same time your leader hasssouna is telling us he prefer hariri the corrupt to come back as PM!

So you tell us what is hizb-iran doing in this regard! how many times did your za3im promise you to be fighting corruption!?

oh wait Hizb-Iran have been busy covering the corrupts in Lebanon all this time!

why don't you have any thoughts about this Mr. anti corruption!
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
enou enta ma bteste7i man?

You support a party who make the same lies about fighting corruption meanwhile their biggest ally is the corrupt berri and at the same time your leader hasssouna is telling us he prefer hariri the corrupt to come back as PM!

So you tell us what is hizb-iran doing in this regard! how many times did your za3im promise you to be fighting corruption!?

oh wait Hizb-Iran have been busy covering the corrupts in Lebanon all this time!

why don't you have any thoughts about this Mr. anti corruption!

Stop voting for Mr Hariri and his party. When Hariri is not nominated as PM, your mufti and your fellow Sunnis feel sidelined and no one else pleases them, no matter how decent the alternative is.

This thread is not about puffing out your grievances and enlightening us on your leadership desires. It is abour dropping immunity from prosecution of state officials. Are you in support of that?
 

أبو علي

Legendary Member
Stop voting for Mr Hariri and his party. When Hariri is not nominated as PM, your mufti and your fellow Sunnis feel sidelined and no one else pleases them, no matter how decent the alternative is.

This thread is not about puffing out your grievances and enlightening us on your leadership desires. It is abour dropping immunity from prosecution of state officials. Are you in support of that?


Ya but you are not being fare here.. you want to blame the 3awniyeh alone who are also bunch of sheep like many in the country!
You asked the FPM/3awniyeh a question my issue here is why don't you ask the same yourself!

After all the Hizb you support are the ones who are the strongest politically and even militarily in the country!
But instead they are giving corrupt all cover to maintain their positions!

I'm not defending the corrupt mufti or the so called sunni here.. I know this is something hard for you to grasp!
Many of so called Sunni like yourself are bunch of sectarian cheep who only loves to attack the other side while they don't see their own shit!
 

SeaAb

Legendary Member
Staff member
Super Penguin
I started this thread 7 months before the so called revolution or rather protests erupted in October 2019.

What has happened on this issue in parliament since then?

What has the FPM done in this regard? The FPM wants to fight corruption and is always preaching about fighting corruption. How can you fight corruption when some or most state officials have immunity against prosecution and they are the ones who commit or abet most of the most heinous and most hefty financial crimes or corruption? @SeaAb any thoughts?
Your ally has all our submitted anti-corruption laws locked up in his drawer. HA should continue this 'I know nothing' attitude kermel l Shi3a ma ye3la2o b ba3ed. Ste7e...
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Your ally has all our submitted anti-corruption laws locked up in his drawer. HA should continue this 'I know nothing' attitude kermel l Shi3a ma ye3la2o b ba3ed. Ste7e...

I'm not referring to "all".

I am referring to this one. Is it among? Dont throw in a red herring to sway us out of topic.

And i dont have any ally. I am talking to you as an individual. What ally are you donating to my name?
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Ya but you are not being fare here.. you want to blame the 3awniyeh alone who are also bunch of sheep like many in the country!
You asked the FPM/3awniyeh a question my issue here is why don't you ask the same yourself!

After all the Hizb you support are the ones who are the strongest politically and even militarily in the country!
But instead they are giving corrupt all cover to maintain their positions!

The question goes to everyone including HA. I am a Lebanese and i am speaking as an individual. I belong to no party and i dont see myself belonging to any of the current parties, including HA anytime soon. I do support HA in defending the country as i would support any Lebanese facing foreign enemies. This is my position as a Lebanese.

As for this topic, it is for everyone to contribute on and also answer my question.

I'm not defending the corrupt mufti or the so called sunni here.. I know this is something hard for you to grasp!
Many of so called Sunni like yourself are bunch of sectarian cheep who only loves to attack the other side while they don't see their own shit!

I am not Sunni.
 

أبو علي

Legendary Member
The question goes to everyone including HA. I am a Lebanese and i am speaking as an individual. I belong to no party and i dont see myself belonging to any of the current parties, including HA anytime soon. I do support HA in defending the country as i would support any Lebanese facing foreign enemies. This is my position as a Lebanese.

As for this topic, it is for everyone to contribute on and also answer my question.

Well your previous comment didn't sound like that at all!
Your were blaming fpm alone and pointing finger at them alone!

Meanwhile the Hizb you always defend at every corner are not any better in this regard of "fighting" corruption!

You claim to support the hizb only in "defending" the country from external threats but you never mention or blame the hizb for giving the corrupt cover and for being corrupt themselves..

So if we put the external threats aside for a moment.. do you agree that the hizb is covering corrupts and giving them all the supports they need instead of going against them?

For sure hizb have other priorities than small internal issues mahek?

meanwhile the lebanese are literally living in a dumpster!


I am not Sunni.

No you are not.. but we all behave in similar fashion!
The issue that you only want to point at others shit while your own stinky shit is all fine and dandy !
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Well your previous comment didn't sound like that at all!
Your were blaming fpm alone and pointing finger at them alone!

Meanwhile the Hizb you always defend at every corner are not any better in this regard of "fighting" corruption!

You claim to support the hizb only in "defending" the country from external threats but you never mention or blame the hizb for giving the corrupt cover and for being corrupt themselves..

So if we put the external threats aside for a moment.. do you agree that the hizb is covering corrupts and giving them all the supports they need instead of going against them?

For sure hizb have other priorities than small internal issues mahek?

meanwhile the lebanese are literally living in a dumpster!

I do not think you are this ignorant. The above discourse is popular on the streets with lay people.

You cant accuse HA of giving any corrupt persons cover because those persons are the legitimate representatives of the Lebanese people. Their cover is from the people who vote them. That is the first and most important cover.

The second cover is from the state. They hold important posts and they are immune from prosecution. They have legal immunity, which i wany parliament to drop. You cant fight anyone who has legal immunity. They are basically untouchable by law. What do you expect Hezballah to do? To arrest and imprison them? When you say Hezballah is giving them a cover, or Hezballah is not fighting the corrupt people, what do you expect Hezballah to do? Tell us what you mean. In all countries where corruption is fought, there are judicial bodies or agencies responsible acting and not political parties or even a resistance or militant group. So you neee to tell us how a political party with a resistance wing is expected to fight corruption or corrupt state officials, who are equally representatives of Lebanese people. Hezballah acts as a resistance movement against foreign occupation. But how can Hezballah on its own fight fellow Lebanese who are corrupt and have cover and legitimacy from the people and from the state through legal immunity? Are you calling for HA to stage a revolution? Maybe a violent one?


No you are not.. but we all behave in similar fashion!
The issue that you only want to point at others shit while your own stinky shit is all fine and dandy !

I do not behave like you do.
Thanks.
 

أبو علي

Legendary Member
I do not think you are this ignorant. The above discourse is popular on the streets with lay people.

You cant accuse HA of giving any corrupt persons cover because those persons are the legitimate representatives of the Lebanese people. Their cover is from the people who vote them. That is the first and most important cover.

The second cover is from the state. They hold important posts and they are immune from prosecution. They have legal immunity, which i wany parliament to drop. You cant fight anyone who has legal immunity. They are basically untouchable by law. What do you expect Hezballah to do? To arrest and imprison them? When you say Hezballah is giving them a cover, or Hezballah is not fighting the corrupt people, what do you expect Hezballah to do? Tell us what you mean. In all countries where corruption is fought, there are judicial bodies or agencies responsible acting and not political parties or even a resistance or militant group. So you neee to tell us how a political party with a resistance wing is expected to fight corruption or corrupt state officials, who are equally representatives of Lebanese people. Hezballah acts as a resistance movement against foreign occupation. But how can Hezballah on its own fight fellow Lebanese who are corrupt and have cover and legitimacy from the people and from the state through legal immunity? Are you calling for HA to stage a revolution? Maybe a violent one?




I do not behave like you do.
Thanks.


hhhhfffttt speaking of ignorance your whole reply is laughable and more of being in total denial of reality!

You speak like the hizb is going all against berri in elections times. while in truth the hizb and berri are allies!
These corrupt representatives you speak of are the same the hizb are helping to stay in power and even the hizb representatives in the parliament voted in many corrupts like berri!

I expect the hizb if they were truly fighting corruption in Lebanon for a starter not to ally themselves with ones in election time and give the people a choice instead of sharing the pie with these same corrupts and also not to vote in corrupts like berri.. there are so many things that can be done if they were truly fighting corruptions and I'm sure you know that very well!

And why you think the hizb never truly introduced any law like the one you are proposing to us!
Why do you expect fpm and not both the hizb and fpm to introduce it why don't you blame them both if you believe they are not corrupt!?

The same people you are blaming to give legitimacy to the corrupts are the same people who also voted for the hizb you support!

Maybe the hizb's job is to make people aware of corrupts like berri and others.. right? but no instead we see them wanting to maintain their relations with the corrupts and give them covers and the support they need under the banners of unity!

Truth be told the hizb you support is not interested in fighting corruptions as there are more important shit for them to deal with than internal affairs so they do it not by sitting aside but by keeping the current balance and empowering these corrupts to maintain their status..
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
hhhhfffttt speaking of ignorance your whole reply is laughable and more of being in total denial of reality!

You speak like the hizb is going all against berri in elections times. while in truth the hizb and berri are allies!
These corrupt representatives you speak of are the same the hizb are helping to stay in power and even the hizb representatives in the parliament voted in many corrupts like berri!

I expect the hizb if they were truly fighting corruption in Lebanon for a starter not to ally themselves with ones in election time and give the people a choice instead of sharing the pie with these same corrupts and also not to vote in corrupts like berri.. there are so many things that can be done if they were truly fighting corruptions and I'm sure you know that very well!

And why you think the hizb never truly introduced any law like the one you are proposing to us!
Why do you expect fpm and not both the hizb and fpm to introduce it why don't you blame them both if you believe they are not corrupt!?

The same people you are blaming to give legitimacy to the corrupts are the same people who also voted for the hizb you support!

Maybe the hizb's job is to make people aware of corrupts like berri and others.. right? but no instead we see them wanting to maintain their relations with the corrupts and give them covers and the support they need under the banners of unity!

Truth be told the hizb you support is not interested in fighting corruptions as there are more important shit for them to deal with than internal affairs so they do it not by sitting aside but by keeping the current balance and empowering these corrupts to maintain their status..

What you are suggesting is not a fight against corruption. Breaking alliances between major parties is not a fight against corruption. Even if Berri is proven corrupt, you cant say 100% of Amal members are corrupt. And for as far as no court has charged him and he enjoys legal immunity, any political bickering with him is a call for fitnah and not fight against corruption. He represents a large chunk of Lebanese just like other parties do.

What you are calling for Hezballah to do is actually a revolution. Do you support Hezballah to stage a revolution? All parties in Lebanon except one or two or three are led by corrupt people, and they collectively represent the majority of Lebanese voters. If you have to break ties with them and go against them, you are looking for trouble or calling for a revolution, maybe a violent one and dismantling the sectarian state. If you support Hezballah to do this, let the people go to the streets and call on Hezballah to stage this revolution and cleanse the state and form military style tribunals to judge those guilty of corruption and punish them and lead.
 

أبو علي

Legendary Member
What you are suggesting is not a fight against corruption. Breaking alliances between major parties is not a fight against corruption. Even if Berri is proven corrupt, you cant say 100% of Amal members are corrupt. And for as far as no court has charged him and he enjoys legal immunity, any political bickering with him is a call for fitnah and not fight against corruption. He represents a large chunk of Lebanese just like other parties do.

What you are calling for Hezballah to do is actually a revolution. Do you support Hezballah to stage a revolution? All parties in Lebanon except one or two or three are led by corrupt people, and they collectively represent the majority of Lebanese voters. If you have to break ties with them and go against them, you are looking for trouble or calling for a revolution, maybe a violent one and dismantling the sectarian state. If you support Hezballah to do this, let the people go to the streets and call on Hezballah to stage this revolution and cleanse the state and form military style tribunals and lead.

No, not necessary a call for a popular revolution..

Logic says if a political party is against corrupts and claim to even fighting it.. then you try to weaken them and not empower them and give them positions of power!

As party fighting corruptions you are supposed to make people side with you against the corrupts!

But what we instead see from this party you are defending is the opposite of all that!
Hizb seems to always willing to share the pie with the corrupts by making deals in elections, governments etc!

They are not even introducing laws against corruption or truly fighting to pass a law to fight corruption!

And instead you want to blame fpm for not passing such laws.. I'm no fan of fpm directly and I'm not trying to defend them here!
but man why this double standards!
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
No, not necessary a call for a popular revolution..

Logic says if a political party is against corrupts and claim to even fighting it.. then you try to weaken them and not empower them and give them positions of power!

As party fighting corruptions you are supposed to make people side with you against the corrupts!

But what we instead see from this party you are defending is the opposite of all that!
Hizb seems to always willing to share the pie with the corrupts by making deals in elections, governments etc!

They are not even introducing laws against corruption or truly fighting to pass a law to fight corruption!

And instead you want to blame fpm for not passing such laws.. I'm no fan of fpm directly and I'm not trying to defend them here!
but man why this double standards!

You want Hezballah to be the jury and the judge. This cant work. This will only end in bickering and statements or claims and counter claims. All those you think are corrupt cannot be sued or taken to court because they have legal immunity. They are above the law.

And dont wait or count on people to support your fight against corruption. Most people are corrupt. This is reality.

The judicary or a clean and independent judiciary fights corruption. It is not the job of a political party to judge and declare others guilty.

In Lebanon the corrupt have legal immunity. The judiciary is not independent and its judges are political appointees. The same corrupt men appoint corrupt judges. No justice.

Politicians and state officials should have no legal immunity. Judges should not be appointed by elected officials. Judges can be elected directly by the people. Judges can attain the title of judge through merit, knowledge or seniority. There are civil and legal ways to fight corruption.

What you are calling for wont even produce the results you expect, except if it is a violent revolution to cleanse the entire system. And even if the latter happens, people would still complain and oppose. So best to remain civil and carry out the fight within the judiciary and state institutions. Anything else is just political speech like you are doing "to get back at me". But you do sound ridiculous.
 
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