Lebanese History Revisionism Thread

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ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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1- Lebanese Druze lied about their Emirs.

Fakhriddine 1 was not a noble prince. But a tax collector.
Fakhrriddine 2 was not related to Fakhriddine 1. But was Uthman son or Qurqumaz, a Kurdish ruler / warlord in Mt Lebanon (like Joumblatt today), who called his son Qurqumaz after his grandfather.
The Maronite Al-Khazen family lied about raising Fakhriddine 2 to get political power in North Lebanon.

Source: في حوار لم ينشر بعد: تزوير تاريخ لبنان واختراع فخر الدين الثاني / صقر ابو فخر

2- In the 16th to 18th century, Maronites were mostly Syrian Immigrants in support of a Syrian Nationalist movement


Maronites were mostly rich 1600s immigrants from Syria, who wanted a country of their own to separate themselves from the Syrian Alewites / Sunnis.
Original Leb Maronites were a few tribes in North Lebanon. Before the 1600s immigration to Lebanon which Fakhriddine 2 allowed.
Most old Maronite churches were built by Syrian Nationalists (e.g one in downtown built by the Syrian Maronite Debs family by a Syrian Nationalist Archbishop Joseph Debs).

Source 1: في حوار لم ينشر بعد: تزوير تاريخ لبنان واختراع فخر الدين الثاني / صقر ابو فخر

Source 2:

3- Druze were rebelling for autonomy from the 1500s against Ottomans

So the idea of a nation of Lebanon had to come originally from the Druze in some form. But was actually established by Maronites.

Source: Abdul-Rahim Abu-Husayn, Rebellion, Myth Making and Nation Building: Lebanon from an Ottoman Mountain Iltizam to a Nation State (Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, 2009)

4- Ottomans recognized Lebanon as a Druze homeland.

1800s Atlas refers to Lebanon as Durza and seperates it from Syria.

Source: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Cedid_Atlas_%28Middle_East%29_1803.jpg

5- Phoenician identity is a made-up silly thing


It was a new identity created from 6000 year-old excavations. Lebanese didn't receive their cultural practices, customs and religious beliefs from Phoenicians.
Even the French individuals that encouraged Bachir Gemayel to go down that path made fun of him for believing what he was saying.
Lebanese culture is a mixture of Cypriot, Greek, Turkish, Syriac and Arab.

6- Shiahs were originally Eastern immigrants.

Jewish traveler Benjamin of Tudela reports on his visit to Lebanon in the 12th century of Shiahs in Lebanon, who he claims had squinty eyes and different facial features than Druze, Jews and Christians.
 
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  • NewLeb

    NewLeb

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    Even if all the above was true, it doesn’t matter at the end of the day. Whatever you think constitutes a Lebanese identity (in the modern world of today) only matters in terms of how successful it performs. The current set-up is obviously a failure.
     
    Saqar18

    Saqar18

    New Member
    1- Lebanese Druze lied about their Emirs.

    Fakhriddine 1 was not a noble prince. But a tax collector.
    Fakhrriddine 2 was not related to Fakhriddine 1. But was Uthman son or Qurqumaz, a Kurdish ruler / warlord in Mt Lebanon (like Joumblatt today), who called his son Qurqumaz after his grandfather.
    The Maronite Al-Khazen family lied about raising Fakhriddine 2 to get political power in North Lebanon.

    Source: في حوار لم ينشر بعد: تزوير تاريخ لبنان واختراع فخر الدين الثاني / صقر ابو فخر

    2- In the 16th to 18th century, Maronites were mostly Syrian Immigrants in support of a Syrian Nationalist movement

    Maronites were mostly rich 1600s immigrants from Syria, who wanted a country of their own to separate themselves from the Syrian Alewites / Sunnis.
    Original Leb Maronites were a few tribes in North Lebanon. Before the 1600s immigration to Lebanon which Fakhriddine 2 allowed.
    Most old Maronite churches were built by Syrian Nationalists (e.g one in downtown built by the Syrian Maronite Debs family by a Syrian Nationalist Archbishop Joseph Debs).

    Source 1: في حوار لم ينشر بعد: تزوير تاريخ لبنان واختراع فخر الدين الثاني / صقر ابو فخر

    Source 2:
    3- Druze were rebelling for autonomy from the 1500s against Ottomans

    So the idea of a nation of Lebanon had to come originally from the Druze in some form. But was actually established by Maronites.

    Source: Abdul-Rahim Abu-Husayn, Rebellion, Myth Making and Nation Building: Lebanon from an Ottoman Mountain Iltizam to a Nation State (Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, 2009)

    4- Ottomans recognized Lebanon as a Druze homeland.

    1800s Atlas refers to Lebanon as Durza and seperates it from Syria.

    Source: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Cedid_Atlas_%28Middle_East%29_1803.jpg

    5- Phoenician identity is a made-up silly thing

    It was a new identity created from 6000 year-old excavations. Lebanese didn't receive their cultural practices, customs and religious beliefs from Phoenicians.
    Even the French individuals that encouraged Bachir Gemayel to go down that path made fun of him for believing what he was saying.
    Lebanese culture is a mixture of Cypriot, Greek, Turkish, Syriac and Arab.

    6- Shiahs were originally Eastern immigrants.

    Jewish traveler Benjamin of Tudela reports on his visit to Lebanon in the 12th century of Shiahs in Lebanon, who he claims had squinty eyes and different facial features than Druze, Jews and Christians.
    I dont know much about fakhrdeen the first. I searched but, nothing interesting.
    By saying he is not a noble prince, what are you suggesting? Was he just a normal landowner with a take in the taxes?
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    I dont know much about fakhrdeen the first. I searched but, nothing interesting.
    By saying he is not a noble prince, what are you suggesting? Was he just a normal landowner with a take in the taxes?
    No, the theory suggests he was a peasant but a tax collector for the Ottomans. Unrelated to the ruling Al Maan family in the Chouf wihich "Fakhriddine the 2nd" is from. But his origin and family are mysterious. Oral traditions say he was Druze.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    However, I do have to take issue with Number #5.

    The “Lebanese” do indeed possess some form of an identity that is a reflection of Phoenician civilization. This makes sense, as the peoples who inhabit the area known as Lebanon today were raised by generations that- if you go back in time enough - ultimately led to a demographically Phoenician society.

    It’s similiar to the Germans, who ultimately come from the barbarians. They still retain those traits, albeit in smaller quantities.
     
    The_FPMer

    The_FPMer

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    2- In the 16th to 18th century, Maronites were mostly Syrian Immigrants in support of a Syrian Nationalist movement
    The exact opposite is true. As Pierre Zalloua's recent studies, most Maronites converted in Lebanon.
    5- Phoenician identity is a made-up silly thing

    It was a new identity created from 6000 year-old excavations. Lebanese didn't receive their cultural practices, customs and religious beliefs from Phoenicians.
    Even the French individuals that encouraged Bachir Gemayel to go down that path made fun of him for believing what he was saying.
    Lebanese culture is a mixture of Cypriot, Greek, Turkish, Syriac and Arab.
    You would be surprised how much of our culture comes of Phoenician culture. Dabke is one of them.

    Bachir Gemayel never talked about the Phoenician identity, he talked about the Syriac one. In fact, Voice of Lebanon's intro was said in Syriac back then. There's a famous Annahar article whose headline read: "Bachir Gemayel calling his dad: Baba, Kif bi oulo ra2is joumhouriye bl Siryene?".
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    The exact opposite is true. As Pierre Zalloua's recent studies, most Maronites converted in Lebanon.
    That's not true. His genetic studies (Ancient DNA of Phoenician remains indicates discontinuity in the settlement history of Ibiza | Semantic Scholar) show nothing about Maronite conversion. He simply studied Phoenician DNA remnants in different Lebanese and claimed we're all equally Phoenician. That doesn't mean Maronites converted in Lebanon. Syrian Chrisitans hold Phoenician DNA too.


    You would be surprised how much of our culture comes of Phoenician culture. Dabke is one of them.

    Bachir Gemayel never talked about the Phoenician identity, he talked about the Syriac one. In fact, Voice of Lebanon's intro was said in Syriac back then. There's a famous Annahar article whose headline read: "Bachir Gemayel calling his dad: Baba, Kif bi oulo ra2is joumhouriye bl Siryene?".
    Dabke is claimed to be for Phoenician culture as a Folk Tradition. It's not historically established.
    To the contrary, it seems to have already been in Ancient Greece.

    1583213282328.png

    And Bachir Gemayel was part of the Kataeb Party which holds Phoenician identity part of its ideology (Kataeb Party - Wikipedia)
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    @The_FPMer This is from Peirre's study. Lebanese and Syrians overlap in his study. How did he determine Maronites converted in Lebanon? It doesn't seem like a claim he made anywhere.

    1583213617038.png
     
    The_FPMer

    The_FPMer

    Active Member
    That's not true. His genetic studies (Ancient DNA of Phoenician remains indicates discontinuity in the settlement history of Ibiza | Semantic Scholar) show nothing about Maronite conversion. He simply studied Phoenician DNA remnants in different Lebanese and claimed we're all equally Phoenician. That doesn't mean Maronites converted in Lebanon. Syrian Chrisitans hold Phoenician DNA too.
    He and Nassim Taleb claimed numerous times that most Maronites descend from converted Lebanese than Syrian migrations. Zalloua re-iterated his claims few weeks ago on MTV on an episode about the Syriac language and the Maronites.


    Dabke is claimed to be for Phoenician culture as a Folk Tradition. It's not historically established.
    To the contrary, it seems to have already been in Ancient Greece.

    View attachment 18122

    And Bachir Gemayel was part of the Kataeb Party which holds Phoenician identity part of its ideology (Kataeb Party - Wikipedia)
    Literally no one can claim that Dabke is rooted in Ancient Greece.

    Bachir Gemayel never claimed Phoenician identity as you claimed and that the French mocked him for it. He believed in the Syriac identity of Christians.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    He and Nassim Taleb claimed numerous times that most Maronites descend from converted Lebanese than Syrian migrations. Zalloua re-iterated his claims few weeks ago on MTV on an episode about the Syriac language and the Maronites.



    Literally no one can claim that Dabke is rooted in Ancient Greece.

    Bachir Gemayel never claimed Phoenician identity as you claimed and that the French mocked him for it. He believed in the Syriac identity of Christians.
    Nassim Taleb claims that Proto Maronites and Proto Druze are of an Anatollian origin (Turkish). I don't think he ever says most Maronites converted in Lebanon. That's more something a church historian with old documents could establish with some credibility to be fair.

    Well, not Dabke itself. But Greek dance (which is almost exactly Dabke to me) is rooted in Ancient Greek and Anatolian Dances. And involves the same concept of holding hands, stomping feet like goats and doing individual dances within the group dance.


    And I'll try to dig through Bachir Gemayel's speeches to see whether he identified with Phoenicians. that's probably going to take weeks as such material is never indexed.
     
    The_FPMer

    The_FPMer

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    Nassim Taleb claims that Proto Maronites and Proto Druze are of an Anatollian origin (Turkish). I don't think he ever says most Maronites converted in Lebanon. That's more something a church historian with old documents could establish with some credibility to be fair.

    Well, not Dabke itself. But Greek dance (which is almost exactly Dabke to me) is rooted in Ancient Greek and Anatolian Dances. And involves the same concept of holding hands, stomping feet like goats and doing individual dances within the group dance.


    And I'll try to dig through Bachir Gemayel's speeches to see whether he identified with Phoenicians. that's probably going to take weeks as such material is never indexed.
    Yes Nassim Taleb said that in his latest conference in Lebanon about decentralization. But saying that Maronites originate from Anatolia and most conversions happened in Lebanon aren't mutually exclusive.

    As for Dabke, yes there are similarities between them but the consensus is that it originated in Lebanon during the Phoenician era.

    It is more than Dabke that we owe to the ancient Lebanese of Phoenicia. It is also our language, and I'm not talking about the script, the export of wine, mass conversions to Christianity happened in Lebanon because Jesus shares similarities with the Phoenix and Adonis, the first law school was built in Beirut (which Hariri Sr. destroyed its remnants) etc.

    I honestly do not understand the itch of some Lebanese to vehemently deny a wonderful part of our history just to appease other disgruntled groups.
     
    NAFAR

    NAFAR

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    History is not so important.
    Today we have sectarian identity above all.
    Shi3as are pro-Iran and pro-khamenai to death
    Sunnites are Pro-Turkey and pro-Erdogan or any other Sunnites rising power as Jamal Abd el Nasser and Palestos in the past
    Christians are Pro- Mar Charbel and 3adra:) as they have no other power to look to after being ditched by the West.
    Lebanon as a nation is a myth.... we have sects living in geographical areas near to each others..that's all.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    I honestly do not understand the itch of some Lebanese to vehemently deny a wonderful part of our history just to appease other disgruntled groups.
    There's no denying that the people in our lands had Phoenician history. The point is that referring to it as a separate identity (like the Kataeb) doesn't make any cultural or genetic sense. The Lebanese ego should learn some humility and understand all the tests he's doing to put up some vague resemblance fail to give you a Lebanese identity, but bundle up Coastal Syrians, Jordanians, Palestinians, Turks and others too.

    Peirre Zaloua's claim that "all different groups in Lebanon are equally Phoenician" shows you how diluted it is. When many Lebanese groups come from recent migrations or were originally in Syrian territory.
     
    The_FPMer

    The_FPMer

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    There's no denying that the people in our lands had Phoenician history. The point is that referring to it as a separate identity (like the Kataeb) doesn't make any cultural or genetic sense. The Lebanese ego should learn some humility and understand all the tests he's doing to put up some vague resemblance fail to give you a Lebanese identity, but bundle up Coastal Syrians, Jordanians, Palestinians, Turks and others too.

    Peirre Zaloua's claim that "all different groups in Lebanon are equally Phoenician" shows you how diluted it is. When many Lebanese groups come from recent migrations or were originally in Syrian territory.
    I agree but Zalloua said it knowing it's not the truth because he wanted to create a national identity around it. Sunnis have more Arab genes than anyone else for example. Maronites score higher in J2 than other sects.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    I agree but Zalloua said it knowing it's not the truth because he wanted to create a national identity around it. Sunnis have more Arab genes than anyone else for example. Maronites score higher in J2 than other sects.
    I'm J2 Maternal. But J2's heat map is quite wide, my friend.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Yes I know, but there's a J2 specific for this area AFAIK.
    As in West Asia, yes. J2A1. But not to Lebanon. No.
    What peaks my interest more is G and H haplogroups found in Europeans and very few Arabs. J2 is very common.
     
    Xynus87

    Xynus87

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    1- Lebanese Druze lied about their Emirs.

    Fakhriddine 1 was not a noble prince. But a tax collector.
    Fakhrriddine 2 was not related to Fakhriddine 1. But was Uthman son or Qurqumaz, a Kurdish ruler / warlord in Mt Lebanon (like Joumblatt today), who called his son Qurqumaz after his grandfather.
    The Maronite Al-Khazen family lied about raising Fakhriddine 2 to get political power in North Lebanon.

    Source: في حوار لم ينشر بعد: تزوير تاريخ لبنان واختراع فخر الدين الثاني / صقر ابو فخر

    2- In the 16th to 18th century, Maronites were mostly Syrian Immigrants in support of a Syrian Nationalist movement

    Maronites were mostly rich 1600s immigrants from Syria, who wanted a country of their own to separate themselves from the Syrian Alewites / Sunnis.
    Original Leb Maronites were a few tribes in North Lebanon. Before the 1600s immigration to Lebanon which Fakhriddine 2 allowed.
    Most old Maronite churches were built by Syrian Nationalists (e.g one in downtown built by the Syrian Maronite Debs family by a Syrian Nationalist Archbishop Joseph Debs).

    Source 1: في حوار لم ينشر بعد: تزوير تاريخ لبنان واختراع فخر الدين الثاني / صقر ابو فخر

    Source 2:
    3- Druze were rebelling for autonomy from the 1500s against Ottomans

    So the idea of a nation of Lebanon had to come originally from the Druze in some form. But was actually established by Maronites.

    Source: Abdul-Rahim Abu-Husayn, Rebellion, Myth Making and Nation Building: Lebanon from an Ottoman Mountain Iltizam to a Nation State (Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, 2009)

    4- Ottomans recognized Lebanon as a Druze homeland.

    1800s Atlas refers to Lebanon as Durza and seperates it from Syria.

    Source: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Cedid_Atlas_%28Middle_East%29_1803.jpg

    5- Phoenician identity is a made-up silly thing

    It was a new identity created from 6000 year-old excavations. Lebanese didn't receive their cultural practices, customs and religious beliefs from Phoenicians.
    Even the French individuals that encouraged Bachir Gemayel to go down that path made fun of him for believing what he was saying.
    Lebanese culture is a mixture of Cypriot, Greek, Turkish, Syriac and Arab.

    6- Shiahs were originally Eastern immigrants.

    Jewish traveler Benjamin of Tudela reports on his visit to Lebanon in the 12th century of Shiahs in Lebanon, who he claims had squinty eyes and different facial features than Druze, Jews and Christians.
    As for the first, I wouldn't be surprised at all to be quite honest since our history is always embellished with nonsense added later on by different people. Why is it that the feudal families in Lebanon during the Ottoman times, always have "glorious roots" .. ? Some families claim they are descended from men who lived in the early Islamic period, others claim descend through Ghassanid kings and princes, others claim their ancestors were related to the Nabataeans. It's all a mishmash, now it might have some truth in it but we can't really just verify such claims. How on earth will you be able to verify your relation with a king who lived in the 3rd century CE .. ? It seems you have to go through some mental gymnastics and/or extreme hardship and get real evidence to eventually convince your self of it. Not that it's certainly false, but it's just way too perfect to be true.

    As for the second one, I disagree. Now sure, lots of people moved from modern-day Syria be it Christians or Muslims, and lots followed the Maronite church after their arrival and all, but the bulk of the Maronites were natives who converted upon the arrival of John Maron to Lebanon with his monks, and subsequently the local Christians (or non-Christians) followed their tradition and spread out from the north to mount Lebanon steadily through the ages.

    As for the third, well, I wouldn't be surprised if they were rebelling for autonomy because everyone pretty much did that in Lebanon and throughout the Levant. And I really doubt the feudal lords who helped in such rebellions had national interests, pretty sure most of their aims were dynastic for the sake of their families and out of pure interest.

    As for the fourth, I guess the Druze might have been a majority throughout specific times and so the name latched on. Could be also a reason behind the fact that the Druze and Christians both got متصرّفين for their own sect, so it makes me think the population was almost equal, or fairly close.

    As for the fifth, I do agree to an extent. Phoenician culture started to decline during the advent of the Achaemenid conquest, and later on more during the Hellenic era, and so the traditions passed on since the times of the Phoenicians must be few, not pervasive. Genetically we're very close to them, and continuity with the Bronze Age Canaanites till present is evident through genetics.

    As for the sixth one, I've no idea what to say. I mean, if they had "squinty eyes" then they must've had some East Asian admixture, but it's not found in Shias as evidenced through genetic samples from all Lebanese sects .. What a weird description. Do you have the link to the work?
     
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