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Lebanese is a language (derived from syriac) not a dialect

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  • manifesto

    Well-Known Member
    #2
    The arguments she gave are very weak.
    She claims that Lebanese is a language, by arguing that Lebanese people say "massal kheir" instead of "masa2 el kheir".

    Well guess what? Saudis say "kwayess" instead of "fine" and "fein" instead of "ayn".
    And we're talking about the birthplace of the Arabic language.

    Vernacular variations from "fus7a" do not qualify as a different language.
    All spoken Arabic dialects differ from Literary Arabic, anyway.

    She's probably never heard Quebecois or Scottish English.
     

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    #4
    Actually Maronites did not speak Syriac, they spoke Western neo-Aramaic (the same language of Jesus). Syriac is an Eastern Aramaic dialect and was used only liturgically.
    As far as I know the Aramaic bible was translated into Syriac during the Umayyad Dynasty because of the alliance with the Nestorians, who were also the Maronites.

    In all cases as @manifesto said her argument is weak. First because she assumes that all Lebanese spoke Syriac at the dawn of Islam. She also seem to assume that all Lebanese have one dialect. In fact, we have Southern, Bekaa, Tripoli and Beirut dialects indicating different linguistic origins.

    She also assumes that Arabic as we know it today existed during the sixth and seventh centuries, when in fact Arabic as we know it today evolved from Syriac itself. This is when it was dotted by the Umayyad's and it only came into existence during the eighth century.
     
    Last edited:

    walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    #5
    What’s important here is not wether it’s Syrian or Aramaic or whatever, it’s that our language is not arabic, and that on it’s own is just amazing! I read a similar article by Nassif Nicholas Taleb, and I find it wonderfully unique!
     

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    #6
    Actually Maronites did not speak Syriac, they spoke Western neo-Aramaic (the same language of Jesus). Syriac is an Eastern Aramaic dialect and was used only liturgically.
    Syriac is Western Aramaic and Jesus spoke Galilean Jewish Old Palestinian, which is Hebrew, but for the sake of the Pope we will call it Aramaic.

    Source : Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht The Aramaic Language: Its Distribution and Subdivisions page 47
    Link on Google books The Aramaic Language
     

    manifesto

    Well-Known Member
    #7
    What’s important here is not wether it’s Syrian or Aramaic or whatever, it’s that our language is not arabic, and that on it’s own is just amazing! I read a similar article by Nassif Nicholas Taleb, and I find it wonderfully unique!
    Certainly, Phoenicians did not speak Arabic. Neither did our ancestors.
    But our current dialect is based on Arabic.
    It's not a language as that lady on MTV is claiming, for the reasons I explained above.

    There's nothing such as Lebanese language, no matter how hard Phoenician revivalists try to claim otherwise.
     

    walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    #8
    Certainly, Phoenicians did not speak Arabic. Neither did our ancestors.
    But our current dialect is based on Arabic.
    It's not a language as that lady on MTV is claiming, for the reasons I explained above.

    There's nothing such as Lebanese language, no matter how hard Phoenician revivalists try to claim otherwise.
    Here is the piece by Taleb...
    From his piece as well as the episode with that lady? Seems enough evidence that Lebanese is a language on its own with Arabic influence... not a dialect of Arabic. And note I have no interest on the political debate of are we Arabs or not...
     

    walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    #9
    The arguments she gave are very weak.
    She claims that Lebanese is a language, by arguing that Lebanese people say "massal kheir" instead of "masa2 el kheir".

    Well guess what? Saudis say "kwayess" instead of "fine" and "fein" instead of "ayn".
    And we're talking about the birthplace of the Arabic language.

    Vernacular variations from "fus7a" do not qualify as a different language.
    All spoken Arabic dialects differ from Literary Arabic, anyway.

    She's probably never heard Quebecois or Scottish English.
    What the lady says, and she is rtight , is that we never say the hamza ....

    Edit: because hamza doesn’t exist in syriac
     

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    #10
    Certainly, Phoenicians did not speak Arabic. Neither did our ancestors.
    But our current dialect is based on Arabic.
    It's not a language as that lady on MTV is claiming, for the reasons I explained above.

    There's nothing such as Lebanese language, no matter how hard Phoenician revivalists try to claim otherwise.
    The Phoenicians spoke and wrote in Paleo Hebrew which has nothing to do with Syriac. It is the language of the Samaritan Torah which is the oldest preserved written Torah written in Phoenician, who are our anscestors. These are the Samaritan Hebrews.

    Oldest Hebrew and Samaritan Script and Language were nothing but Phoenician
     

    manifesto

    Well-Known Member
    #11
    What the lady says, and she is rtight , is that we never say the hamza ....

    Edit: because hamza doesn’t exist in syriac
    In modern Egyptian the J (jim) is pronounced as a G.

    Does that make the Egyptian dialect a distinct language?
    Did ancient Egyptians not pronounce the J either?

    LOL. This argument is absurd.
     

    manifesto

    Well-Known Member
    #13

    Noborders

    Legendary Member
    #14
    Here is the piece by Taleb...
    From his piece as well as the episode with that lady? Seems enough evidence that Lebanese is a language on its own with Arabic influence... not a dialect of Arabic. And note I have no interest on the political debate of are we Arabs or not...


    Thursday, January 04, 2018
    Taleb unintentionally proves Lebanese comes from Arabic

    So Taleb has jumped back on his hobbyhorse with yet another post on Lebanese not being Arabic; see my previous posts Why "Levantine" is Arabic, not Aramaic: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Zombie hypotheses and the Zeitgeist, On finding the sources of shared items. The funniest thing about this one is that he's been helpful enough to provide a wordlist (for his dialect, I presume) that - despite a number of typos, almost all of which increase the apparent similarity between Levantine and non-Arabic Semitic languages - should be enough all by itself to prove to anyone in doubt that Lebanese is clearly descended primarily from Arabic, with very little Aramaic influence and even less from Canaanite/Phoenician. Unfortunately, he wasn't as helpful on the grammar, not bothering to include equivalents from other Semitic languages for the pronouns and verbal conjugations...
    But I don't have all day to spend beating this dead horse, and doing etymology properly takes time. So let's just have a quick look at the first page of his wordlist (well, probably the second one - the real first one seems to be missing), and leave the other pages as an exercise for the reader.

    Jabal al-Lughat: Taleb unintentionally proves Lebanese comes from Arabic
     
    #16
    According to historians, Maronites were pagan locals who converted to Christianity when a disciple of St. Maron reached Lebanon.
    Why would Metwalis speak Hebrew and Maronites Syriac if both were native to this land?
    Southern Lebanon was historically Jewish land also known as Northern Galilee. But indeed, Metwalis speaking Hebrew doesn't make sense, considering even at the time of Jesus the language was already dead, being used only liturgically among Rabbis. Western Aramaic was the common language of the Levant with pockets of Greek speaking communities on the coast until the Arab invasion.
     

    manifesto

    Well-Known Member
    #17
    Southern Lebanon was historically Jewish land also known as Northern Galilee. But indeed, Metwalis speaking Hebrew doesn't make sense, considering even at the time of Jesus the language was already dead, being used only liturgically among Rabbis. Western Aramaic was the common language of the Levant with pockets of Greek speaking communities on the coast until the Arab invasion.
    Makes sense. This is why Jesus speaks Aramaic in Passion of the Christ.
    I wonder why Hebrew went out of fashion and why do modern Israelis speak Hebrew instead of Aramaic?

    If I'm not mistaken, there was a revival of the Hebrew language during the 19th century, when Judaism went from being a liturgical language to a spoken and written language.
     

    Jorje

    Legendary Member
    #18
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    All this thread deserves. Delusional lebs.

    I wonder how I can communicate with a Yemeni and a Moroccan back to back with almost no training in either dialects.
     
    #19
    Makes sense. This is why Jesus speaks Aramaic in Passion of the Christ.
    I wonder why Hebrew went out of fashion and why do modern Israelis speak Hebrew instead of Aramaic?

    If I'm not mistaken, there was a revival of the Hebrew language during the 19th century, when Judaism went from being a liturgical language to a spoken and written language.
    Hebrew went out of fashion for the same reason Phoenician did (they were basically the same Canaanite language), Aramaic was already spread into other parts of the Middle East so it naturally became the lingua franca.

    They started reviving Hebrew when Jews were migrating back to Israel/Palestine, since Jews from different parts of the world spoke different languages they needed a language to understand each other. But I think it only became fully revived after the independence of Israel.
     
    #20
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    All this thread deserves. Delusional lebs.

    I wonder how I can communicate with a Yemeni and a Moroccan back to back with almost no training in either dialects.
    I doubt you can understand two Morrocans talking to each other. If they talk to you obviously they gonna change some words to be more easily understood. Not sure about Yemeni tho. But Levantine, Mesopotamian and even some Gulf dialects have a heavy Aramaic influence.
     
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