Lebanese Sovereignty, and Wilayat Al Fiqh,

Discussion in 'Lebanese Politics and Breaking News' started by achaaban, Oct 31, 2005.

  1. achaaban

    achaaban Active Member

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    After the Suicide bomber attack in Tel Avive it will be a good idea to revist the comparative analysis between the radical religious groups that operate in the region and primarily Islamic Jihad the radical section of the Muslim Brotherhood founded in Egypt by Hassan Al Banna, and the same group that HAMAS originated from, they are also believers in an Islamic umma of Shiites and Sunnis based on Jamal el Din Al Afghani ideology, This organization has a strong support by Iran, whose role is to finance and instigate the Islamic Revolution of the "opressed".


     
  2. Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie Well-Known Member

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    "achaaban" i failed to see your point concerning the wilayat al faqih.i dont see it any how as serving two constitutions.i fully accept the lebanese constitution as my only country's constitution and the only one i can be held liable to serve and protect.

    it is my right as any other to ahve freedom of religion.may be your problem you cant see my point is due to the fact that you are not religious.you first have to understand what wilayat al faqih is from the religious man's point of view.when i believe in wilayat al faqih doesnt mean its choosing between two alternatives.no.

    the walayat al faqih ia part of the shia belief.we believe in imamate after the demise of the prophet muhammad.our twelfth imam is believed by us to be in occultation.a wilayat al faqih is a guide until the twelfth imam reappears.if i dont have the right to believe and follow my own "pope",and my constitution doesnt protect my right as such,then i dont recognize such a constitution or those "nationalists" that believe in it!
     
  3. achaaban

    achaaban Active Member

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    I am not really talking about the Shiite concept of the return of the Mehdi per se, but about the Khomeini's invention of establishing a state ruled by the jurists of Islam until the return of Mehdi, who will try to achieve justice( whatever it means to them this justice)
     
  4. Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie Well-Known Member

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    so whats wrong with that.thats also religion.a hadith from imam ali about wilayat al faqih exists.
     
  5. Kasparov

    Kasparov Well-Known Member
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    I read this thread late, achaaban can u please summarize the points u are trying to state so that i can enter the debate with u ? regards .
     
  6. achaaban

    achaaban Active Member

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    To believe in this as individuals is fine with me but to impose such interpretations on all "Shia" with a character of law, as in the state of Iran foriegn policy is problamatic.

    This is simply imposing this religious concept on Shia, being categorized as those who were born to Shia parents. This simply means that you are enforcing a religious belief by law meaning enforcing religion on people and making religious beliefs inhereted like ctizinship, or nationality. This is what is wrong with that.
     
  7. Dry Ice

    Dry Ice Well-Known Member

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    it's wrong if u want to mix it with state, either state or religion, otherwise you would be putting other religions that share the same state in an unbalanced and unfair position
     
  8. Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie Well-Known Member

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    please you are either dramatizin the issue or confused.who is wilayat al faqih?he is the chief jurist in islamic sharia.making laws not only political is not an easy task in islam and it need someone well educated islamically.the way you are puttin it is limiting teh concept just to politics.and infact we as shias dont believe as the jews in creatin a shia empire.and it would be impossible that the wilayat al faqih would do something to our dentriment or our state's.
     
  9. achaaban

    achaaban Active Member

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    That is the point I do not care about the Islamic Sharia and the jurists who are self appointed and not elected. The Koran was written for the individuals who want to read it and reason it, that is what it says. So who is this jurist and who appointed him to make laws and enforce these laws on me. Some people who must have all died in Karbala and we are still crying at their loss. I think that it is about time to move on.

    There is no consensus amongst the Shia individuals on the legitimacy of such a system of law and politics because it is imposing a religious view as a political and legislative system of absolute government guided by some who claim being the representatives of interpreting what God said. I think that this is very problamatic to a lot of people.
     
  10. Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie Well-Known Member

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    very funny.now i believe you are confused.inregards to what you said about ashura,its not a matter of not movin on.every year ashura has a spiritual meaning to the believer and refreshes both the religion and its followers.again i suggest you do more reasearch.there are lessons from humanity which can be learnt from karbala against oppression and tyranny.and karbala ought not to be forgotten.crying or whatever else are superficial to the essence of karbala.

    the jurists will not force you to obey them.we are shias not wahhabis.we fully belivev in the verse of the quran which says :"no compulsion in religion".there is no way that wilayat al faqih is interfering with you as a lebanese who doesnt pay hid to it.
     
  11. Dry Ice

    Dry Ice Well-Known Member

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    Which jurists are those that you are referring to?

    The Shiite Jurists of the Islamic Republic of Iran are forcing many people to obey them, what is it that happens to you when you want to defend your POV, do you lose any objectivity?

    Are you considering us so naive to consider that the teachings of IRI are fundametally different from the Shiite fundamental teachings of Lebanon?

    Can you please shed more light on what is the exact Wilayat Al-Faqih of Lebanon and how does it differ (if any, but amuse us) from the Wilayat Al-Faqih of Iran?
     
  12. Ana

    Ana Active Member

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    1. If my memory serves me well, you were a diehard pro-Hizballah member not too long ago.

    2. Because you summed up what you have to say in this paragraph, I will reply exclusively to this paragraph.

    A. When you provide a conclusion, you need evidence...... an accusation of killing to anyone is harsh..... please provide me where Hizballah killed "Christians or Jews, just because they are christians or jews. I fail to see any single incident. Your conclusion is in-valid.

    P.S: it's not the number of books your read about someting or someone that determines your knowledge...... It's the quality..... in this case, it seems you were very selective and didn't care to read books that offer different perspectives. The effort is well appreciated, but it seems that a big part of it was a waste and could have been spent reading something else.

    B. In regards to how much bestsellers sell in the arab world.... well, if you're comparing those numbers to US/Western World tends to read you might be right.... again, it's the quality and not the quantity. I'm not going to defend the arab world, but you can never make a judgement based on one statistic.

    C. Last but not least, if you that how many people view the thread vs. how many people reply.... I assure you that I it could very well be the same person(s) viewing the thread multiple times..... again.... statisitcs is not your best field..... maybe public speaking is, cause you're very articulate about what you want to say and you certainly give the impression that you read a lot..... especially when you do copy and paste.....

    Now, what does the 1559 & Wilayat Al Fakih have to do with each other???

    Did you know that Wilayat Al Fakih has many interpretations, even in Iran???
     
  13. achaaban

    achaaban Active Member

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    There is no fundemental difference, it is a centralized state run by the Jurists in Iran, since there is no consensus on such a Wilaya concept among the Shia it cannot have a charachter of law, Khomeini is a mere merje3 that not all Shia scholars agree with. Those who follow in Lebanon do follow the centralized state in Iran, because obviously and from Maher's comment above Fadllalah the Shiite merje3 of Lebanon does not agree with this Wilaya as well as a couple of other Lebanese Shiites scholars disagree with Khomeini.

    In Shii Islam and before Khomeinin there was no state that is ruled by Sharia before the return of the Mehdi , those religious leaders played only an advisory role, after Khomeini the concept of the absolute marje3 was introduced. Those self appointed jurists are appointed by an act of fatwa or ijtihad, it is actually the same thing, someones opinion that holds a character of law, that they issue and enforce on everyone. They do repress Muslim minorities, christians and Jews, and enforce the hijab on women by law, people who oppose them are in political prisions.

    Just like the Sunnis opress the Shiites in the Arab world, The just jurists are doing the same in Iran, so what is the difference, they are both absolutists opressive regimes.


     
  14. achaaban

    achaaban Active Member

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    Hezbolah does support Islamic resistence organizations within other states, some are Sunnis like Islamic Jihad and HAMAS, these people have an agenda of a war with the west, that is the Crusaders and Christianity, and Zionism that is the Jews. This is the situation with these radicals, and I must say any one who supports a man like Ahmed inejad is someone who is out of touch with reality and believes in him self as the super man, such people as we must not forget the cases of Hitler and Saddam, those who think that they are above all are normally found in a hall underground.
     
  15. Ana

    Ana Active Member

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    I guess I can rest my case..... you're still throwing accusations that are not supported by any kind of tangible support.

    Islamic Jihad is killing christians??? What crusaders are you talking about??? Zionism is not the jews.... otherwise, you would see those people fighting jews in all parts of the world, not just occupied Palestine.

    If HAMAS or JIHAD have an agenda to fight with the west, why are they not fighting the west in the WEST???

    Al Kaeda and Oussama Bin Laden do have that agenda and 9/11 is proof.... where did Hamas, Jihad, Hizbullah or "other" islamic resistance groups attacking western countries......

    I rest my case.......... so can everyone who is even considering to debate.
     
  16. achaaban

    achaaban Active Member

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    If you remember correctly our conversation it was within the context of Hezbollah's arms within a sectarian Lebanese government that exclude the Shiites, and in that context I say they have the right to carry arms as long as the political system is a sectarian one.

    As for evidence and so forth, this is a political forum and all the articles that have been written by me up there about Hezbollah as an Islamist political party that does not seperate religion from the state is well researched, and I can provide you with my refernces in a PM.

    However, I am sure that I never in my whole life approved with Hezbollah's religious sectarian ideology and primarily their idea of pan-Islam. As for Hezbollah's support to these organizations I suggest that you start reading about Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, HAMAS and Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood and Alfghani. Then we will be able to argue within the context of my thread topic.
     
  17. Ana

    Ana Active Member

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    1. Please provide references.... in PM if you'd like.
    2. Your references should've provided proof.... alleged hypothesis are not worth much.... I don't see a reason why you can't provide proof.
    3. I have read multiple books too about Hizballah and Amal and their origination.
    4. One more proof that neither Iran nor any of the parties you mentioned is not seeking the elimination of other religions are the christians and jews of Iran.... they are still alive.
    5. Not all Islamic ideologies are the same.... shi'ite differ from sunnis differ from Wahabis(Takfiris) differ from Alawites differ from..... etc etc... they might share some common goals.... but their ultimate mission is not the same.. thus your biased generalization.

    Going back to the secterian system and HA holding arms.... I do disagree that under a secterian system one sect holds arms while others don't. Either all do or all don't. That's the general rule..... the FPM-HA agreement touched base on this issue..... the solution for this problem was also reached in the agreement... Nonetheless, the army which is considered a national organization is controlled by another "national" organization that belongs to a sect..... that's another form of inconsistency in the secterian system.

    You're going in all directions and your assumptions still lack credibility.
     
  18. achaaban

    achaaban Active Member

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    Here are my references, and I do not have to provide evidence for a political opinion that is founded on pulished information. HA are people who are hiding facts and laying about their position, regarding a host of issues regarding Lebanon and its position internationally as a legitimate form of government or sovereignty is seriously being questioned, so with issues of the sort arising I think that issues could not be resolved Hezbollah style only.

    You could call me biased and pay attention to your own bias as well.




    Deep, Marius. 2003. Syria’s Terrorist War in Lebanon and the Peace Process. New York: Palrgrav McMillan

    Entessar, Nader Iran Security Challenges. 2004. The Muslim World. 94: 537-554

    Ehteshami, Anoushiravan, Hinnebusch, Raymond A. Syria and Iran, 1997, Middle Powers in a penetrated regional system: Routledge
     
  19. Ana

    Ana Active Member

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    ........................................................................................
     
  20. Ana

    Ana Active Member

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    Nader Entessar: some reviews from multiple people on amazon regarding one of his books....

    gave this book a try because I at least thought that even though this book is a negative portrayal of Saddam Hussein, I did not think that the authors would be so biased.
    This book is just the same old redundant hodgepodge of 'evil Saddam' mania that has been sweeping the US since the early 1990s

    When i first picked up this book, i thought that it would get me to understand Saddam Hussein better, better even without knowing him that well, i knew that this book is biased from the way it described him

    This is a flawed book best used for casual reference. The weakness here is not inaccuracy but author bias

    this book is very biased,not hard to understand seeing this book was co written by an israeli
     

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