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Lebanon - A New Pact?

Iron Maiden

Paragon of Bacon
Orange Room Supporter
الدولة المدنية...مصّاصة


في اللغة الفرنسية اسمها la tétine ومن مشتقاتها العامية عند أشقائنا الفرنسيين totosse, tototte, tututte, toutouille أمّا في لبنان العربي الانتماء فقد اعتمدنا تعريب الـ tétine بكلمة " المصاصة" أو "اللهاية" أو "اللهوة "ونادراً ما سمعت بـ "المُسكّتة". وأجزم، بعد خبرة، أن "المصّاصة" أهم ابتكار لسد بوز الطفل النقّاق وإسكات الوليد المزعج، خصوصاً إن غطستها بمرطبان مربى المشمش. المصاصة تلهي الطفل وتشتت انتباهه عن نشرات الأخبار وتسكت فجوره بالتي هي أحسن.

ومن فوائد المصاصة انها تساعد الطفل على النوم بسرعة، وتخفف عنه الإرهاق وتبقى أفضل من عادة مصّ الإصبع.

ويبدو لي أن طرح الدولة المدنية على الراشدين والكبار والمخضرمين و"المستويين" نضجاً سياسياً، له مفعول المصاصة. فمن جهة أولى تلهي الجمهور عن حقيقة الإنهيار والإفلاس والأزمات الإجتماعية والفقر في لبنان، ومن جهة أخرى تخفف عنه القلق الوجودي والكياني، فينام الناس مطمئنين إلى مستقبل زاهر يمصّون طوال الليل قطعة من السيليكون لا طعم لها، إلى أن يتخدّر الفكّان...وتسقط المصاصة من افواههم !

إن طرح الدولة المدنية كحل لأزمة لبنان المتعددة الأوجه، في هذا الوقت بالذات، أقرب ما يكون إلى "لهوة أطفال" وفعل تكاذب بين مكوّنات السلطة.

فكيف لمُطالب بدولة مدنية أن يستهول العلمنة ويعتبرها مشروع حرب أهلية؟

وكيف لحزب مؤيد للدولة المدنية وإلغاء الطائفية أن يتضمن بيانه التأسيسي التزاماً "بأوامر قيادة حكيمة وعادلة تتجسد في ولاية الفقيه، وتتجسد في روح الله آية الله الموسوي الخميني مفجر ثورة المسلمين وباعث نهضتهم المجيدة".

وكيف لحزب أن يعود ستين عاماً إلى الوراء ليؤكد أن مؤسسه في طليعة المنادين بالدولة المدنية العلمانية متجاهلاً أن الحرب اللبنانية لم تبقِ في صفوفه القيادية مارونياً واحداً سوى أنطوان الأشقر؟

وكيف لدينامو الدولة المدنية أن يعتبر استعادة حقوق المسيحيين في الدولة أولوية الأولويات وهو من أطلق في ثمانينات القرن الماضي واحدة من بنات أفكاره السياسية التي تعالج الخلاف على النظام "تجمع الدولة المركزية المتفق عليه بين اللبنانيين والمختلف عليه يوضع في أطر فدرالية"؟

وكيف لدولة مدنية أن تتحقق من دون نظام موحد للأحوال الشخصية؟

وكيف لدولة مدنية أن تقوم وفيها هذا العدد الوفير من الأعياد الدينية التي تعطل فيها الدوائر الرسمية أكثر مما تعمل؟

وكيف لدولة مدنية أن تبصر النور ونوابها العلمانيون يصلون إلى مجلس النواب ببوسطات سوبر طائفية؟

كيف لدولة مدنية أن تتحقق وهناك رئيس كتلة ينخضّ وجدانه الوطني لمرأى قنينة نبيذ؟

الدولة المدنية، كمادة لطاولة حوار وتلاق، ليست أكثرمن لهوة كبار أو مصّاصة أطفال أي tututte سيدي الرئيس!

refer to my other post 😂😂
 

Achilles

Active Member
The current sectarian system is dead... it is the source of every single problem this country has faced since 1943. A new system, a new pact is required, and it’s the only way also for Aoun to save his presidency. 4 years have past with the country falling backward, and it’s not realistic to think that miracles will happen in the last 2 years of his term. So the only big project left For him, which will make his term remembered in history is to be able to initiate a new national pact for the country.

However, securalirsm will never happen in Lebanon. And president Aoun knows this perfectly. Proposing a secular state, is throwing a proposal that he knows perfectly will not be accepted by Muslims. This will lead us to option B, which is a federal state like Belgium, Switzerland, the Emirates, the UK, Germany etc.

A true secular state is not a state where religion and law cohabit in harmony; it’s a state where religion will have zero recognition in the public space.

  • A state where you have the choice to marry according to civil law or religious law is not a secular state. It’s a hybrid state. A secular state is a state where the only way for a marriage to be recognise is through it’s civil form. We know what happened when Hraoui tried to suggest a civil marriage as a choice.
  • A state where u can marry 4 women based on religious texts is not a secular state. In a secular state you marry one person.
  • A state where personal status And heritage and succession laws, is based on religious texts is not a secular state. Everyone should abide by civil laws when it comes to personal status.
  • A state where a religious party, whatever it is, Christian, Muslim, Druze, is allowed to keep an army 10 times stronger than the national army is not a secular state.
  • A state where the Vice President is Christian if the president is Muslim, or Muslim if the president is Christian is not a secular state. In a secular state the religion of the person has zero effect. The president, the Vice President, the. Vice Vice President and the vice vice Vice President can all believe in a giant cosmic spaghetti monster floating in space if they wish, as long as it doesn’t influence their down to earth job.
  • Municipalities cannot forbid alcohol in a secular states or advertising for alcohol like in Tripoli or Nabatiyeh.
  • Except maybe for Christmas and Monday Easter, Adha and Fitr, all other Celebrations or holidays should be secular.
  • In a secular state No visible religious signs should be allowed in schools or public administrations. No cross, no Virgin Mary pictures, no veils and no verse from the Coran.
  • Even a senate based on religion should not exist in a true secular state.
And many more examples...

Aoun knows perfectly that most Muslims will never accept this or will try to give their own interpretation to what a secular state is. Like Erdogan is doing in Turkey actually which is light-years away from the secular state pictured by Ataturk.

Christians on the other hand will firmly stick with an either 100% fully and totally implemented secular state with zero place for religion, or we keep the current sectarian system for the next 100 years. Debates will be heated over it.

Finally, when it will clearly appear that Implementing a true secular state is impossible, other options will start being considered like federalism. Lebanon is not just a multi-religious society it’s also a multicultural society. Belonging to different religions makes people overtime develop different way of thinking and cultures.

I personally see a perfect Lebanon as a federal country where:

1- The federal State is responsible only for Defense (one army) and foreign affairs. Nothing more.

2- There is no individual head of state, but a counsel of 8-12 people who, when they meet, act collectively as a collegial head of state. Switzerland and Bosnia-Herzegovina have a similar system.

3- The President of the presidential counsel is not the head of state. He is the first among equals (primus inter pares) he receives embassadors, speaks on official occasions and his term is short. A year like in Switzerland then another member presides the Counsel.

4- Each autonomous region has its parlement, Governement, police forces, own courts, own laws and own rules. Maybe the Shia region wants to ban wine, beer, bikini and alcohol, let them be free to do it. Maybe the Christian region wants to adapt the Lebanese language as the official regional language, written in Latin alphabet. Let them do it also.

I am pretty sure that when time will come to seriously discuss a new national pact or a new system for the country, federalism will be the only viable option on the table, otherwise we will remain stuck forever with the 1943 sectarian system.
 

Genius

Legendary Member
The current sectarian system is dead... it is the source of every single problem this country has faced since 1943. A new system, a new pact is required, and it’s the only way also for Aoun to save his presidency. 4 years have past with the country falling backward, and it’s not realistic to think that miracles will happen in the last 2 years of his term. So the only big project left For him, which will make his term remembered in history is to be able to initiate a new national pact for the country.

However, securalirsm will never happen in Lebanon. And president Aoun knows this perfectly. Proposing a secular state, is throwing a proposal that he knows perfectly will not be accepted by Muslims. This will lead us to option B, which is a federal state like Belgium, Switzerland, the Emirates, the UK, Germany etc.

A true secular state is not a state where religion and law cohabit in harmony; it’s a state where religion will have zero recognition in the public space.

  • A state where you have the choice to marry according to civil law or religious law is not a secular state. It’s a hybrid state. A secular state is a state where the only way for a marriage to be recognise is through it’s civil form. We know what happened when Hraoui tried to suggest a civil marriage as a choice.
  • A state where u can marry 4 women based on religious texts is not a secular state. In a secular state you marry one person.
  • A state where personal status And heritage and succession laws, is based on religious texts is not a secular state. Everyone should abide by civil laws when it comes to personal status.
  • A state where a religious party, whatever it is, Christian, Muslim, Druze, is allowed to keep an army 10 times stronger than the national army is not a secular state.
  • A state where the Vice President is Christian if the president is Muslim, or Muslim if the president is Christian is not a secular state. In a secular state the religion of the person has zero effect. The president, the Vice President, the. Vice Vice President and the vice vice Vice President can all believe in a giant cosmic spaghetti monster floating in space if they wish, as long as it doesn’t influence their down to earth job.
  • Municipalities cannot forbid alcohol in a secular states or advertising for alcohol like in Tripoli or Nabatiyeh.
  • Except maybe for Christmas and Monday Easter, Adha and Fitr, all other Celebrations or holidays should be secular.
  • In a secular state No visible religious signs should be allowed in schools or public administrations. No cross, no Virgin Mary pictures, no veils and no verse from the Coran.
  • Even a senate based on religion should not exist in a true secular state.
And many more examples...

Aoun knows perfectly that most Muslims will never accept this or will try to give their own interpretation to what a secular state is. Like Erdogan is doing in Turkey actually which is light-years away from the secular state pictured by Ataturk.

Christians on the other hand will firmly stick with an either 100% fully and totally implemented secular state with zero place for religion, or we keep the current sectarian system for the next 100 years. Debates will be heated over it.

Finally, when it will clearly appear that Implementing a true secular state is impossible, other options will start being considered like federalism. Lebanon is not just a multi-religious society it’s also a multicultural society. Belonging to different religions makes people overtime develop different way of thinking and cultures.

I personally see a perfect Lebanon as a federal country where:

1- The federal State is responsible only for Defense (one army) and foreign affairs. Nothing more.

2- There is no individual head of state, but a counsel of 8-12 people who, when they meet, act collectively as a collegial head of state. Switzerland and Bosnia-Herzegovina have a similar system.

3- The President of the presidential counsel is not the head of state. He is the first among equals (primus inter pares) he receives embassadors, speaks on official occasions and his term is short. A year like in Switzerland then another member presides the Counsel.

4- Each autonomous region has its parlement, Governement, police forces, own courts, own laws and own rules. Maybe the Shia region wants to ban wine, beer, bikini and alcohol, let them be free to do it. Maybe the Christian region wants to adapt the Lebanese language as the official regional language, written in Latin alphabet. Let them do it also.

I am pretty sure that when time will come to seriously discuss a new national pact or a new system for the country, federalism will be the only viable option on the table, otherwise we will remain stuck forever with the 1943 sectarian system.

Federalism is a very complex system that the lebanese will never be able to implement.
We are aiming for the stars, when we are swimming in sewage and walking on garbage.
In agree the system is broken, however, we lack maturity for federalism. Foreign affairs and military i highly contentious state affairs.
Partition might be a better start, then states could unify if they feel appropriate.
 

Resign

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
The current sectarian system is dead... it is the source of every single problem this country has faced since 1943. A new system, a new pact is required, and it’s the only way also for Aoun to save his presidency. 4 years have past with the country falling backward, and it’s not realistic to think that miracles will happen in the last 2 years of his term. So the only big project left For him, which will make his term remembered in history is to be able to initiate a new national pact for the country.

However, securalirsm will never happen in Lebanon. And president Aoun knows this perfectly. Proposing a secular state, is throwing a proposal that he knows perfectly will not be accepted by Muslims. This will lead us to option B, which is a federal state like Belgium, Switzerland, the Emirates, the UK, Germany etc.

A true secular state is not a state where religion and law cohabit in harmony; it’s a state where religion will have zero recognition in the public space.

  • A state where you have the choice to marry according to civil law or religious law is not a secular state. It’s a hybrid state. A secular state is a state where the only way for a marriage to be recognise is through it’s civil form. We know what happened when Hraoui tried to suggest a civil marriage as a choice.
  • A state where u can marry 4 women based on religious texts is not a secular state. In a secular state you marry one person.
  • A state where personal status And heritage and succession laws, is based on religious texts is not a secular state. Everyone should abide by civil laws when it comes to personal status.
  • A state where a religious party, whatever it is, Christian, Muslim, Druze, is allowed to keep an army 10 times stronger than the national army is not a secular state.
  • A state where the Vice President is Christian if the president is Muslim, or Muslim if the president is Christian is not a secular state. In a secular state the religion of the person has zero effect. The president, the Vice President, the. Vice Vice President and the vice vice Vice President can all believe in a giant cosmic spaghetti monster floating in space if they wish, as long as it doesn’t influence their down to earth job.
  • Municipalities cannot forbid alcohol in a secular states or advertising for alcohol like in Tripoli or Nabatiyeh.
  • Except maybe for Christmas and Monday Easter, Adha and Fitr, all other Celebrations or holidays should be secular.
  • In a secular state No visible religious signs should be allowed in schools or public administrations. No cross, no Virgin Mary pictures, no veils and no verse from the Coran.
  • Even a senate based on religion should not exist in a true secular state.
And many more examples...

Aoun knows perfectly that most Muslims will never accept this or will try to give their own interpretation to what a secular state is. Like Erdogan is doing in Turkey actually which is light-years away from the secular state pictured by Ataturk.

Christians on the other hand will firmly stick with an either 100% fully and totally implemented secular state with zero place for religion, or we keep the current sectarian system for the next 100 years. Debates will be heated over it.

Finally, when it will clearly appear that Implementing a true secular state is impossible, other options will start being considered like federalism. Lebanon is not just a multi-religious society it’s also a multicultural society. Belonging to different religions makes people overtime develop different way of thinking and cultures.

I personally see a perfect Lebanon as a federal country where:

1- The federal State is responsible only for Defense (one army) and foreign affairs. Nothing more.

2- There is no individual head of state, but a counsel of 8-12 people who, when they meet, act collectively as a collegial head of state. Switzerland and Bosnia-Herzegovina have a similar system.

3- The President of the presidential counsel is not the head of state. He is the first among equals (primus inter pares) he receives embassadors, speaks on official occasions and his term is short. A year like in Switzerland then another member presides the Counsel.

4- Each autonomous region has its parlement, Governement, police forces, own courts, own laws and own rules. Maybe the Shia region wants to ban wine, beer, bikini and alcohol, let them be free to do it. Maybe the Christian region wants to adapt the Lebanese language as the official regional language, written in Latin alphabet. Let them do it also.

I am pretty sure that when time will come to seriously discuss a new national pact or a new system for the country, federalism will be the only viable option on the table, otherwise we will remain stuck forever with the 1943 sectarian system.

Even a one army and a one foreign policy remains an issue
 

Resign

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
And a budget, health system...

In a federal system that shouldn’t be a problem as it’ll be decentralized

Unlike the swiss
We can’t even agree on an identity
Let alone a foreign policy
I agree with you that partitioning is the only way forward
It’s even better actually, we won’t have to worry about an Israeli border anymore.
 

cedarheart

Legendary Member
I think there's a general confusion on what "dawla madaniya" is.

Dawal Madaniya is NOT Dawla 3elmaniya e.g Secular State
Dawal madaniya = Civic State (or Civil) based on "civic nationalism" philosophy or "liberal nationalism" (not to be confused with the modern "liberalism" idea"), it is the opposite of "ethnic/religious nationalism"

In a Civic State, any person who is a citizen of the state is a member of the "nation" with equal political, legal, economical, etc rights and obligations regardless of religious belief, skin color, ethnic background, spoken language, etc.... in ethnic nationalism, people are considered part of the nation only if they belong the a specific ethnic or religious group

A Secular State is similar (hence the confusion) but it also means that the State does not recognize religious groups and citizens' religious beliefs.

Many are using the 2 terms interchangeably, and i belief a clearer meaning of the term is due for everyone.
Often in Lebanon a term is thrown out and everyone starts repeating it without really understanding its full meaning and the agenda behind it.

The advocates of "dawla madaniya" have now a moral obligation to clearly explain to all Lebanese what is their personal understanding of that term.

I know that so far Charbel Nahas explained his understanding. GMA called for "dawla madaniya" but, to be fair, i'm not sure if he explained his perspective of it or not (i haven't had the time yet to listen to his speech). But what about all the parrots on TV repeating the word every minute, what's their understating ?
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
The current sectarian system is dead... it is the source of every single problem this country has faced since 1943. A new system, a new pact is required, and it’s the only way also for Aoun to save his presidency. 4 years have past with the country falling backward, and it’s not realistic to think that miracles will happen in the last 2 years of his term. So the only big project left For him, which will make his term remembered in history is to be able to initiate a new national pact for the country.

However, securalirsm will never happen in Lebanon. And president Aoun knows this perfectly. Proposing a secular state, is throwing a proposal that he knows perfectly will not be accepted by Muslims. This will lead us to option B, which is a federal state like Belgium, Switzerland, the Emirates, the UK, Germany etc.

A true secular state is not a state where religion and law cohabit in harmony; it’s a state where religion will have zero recognition in the public space.

  • A state where you have the choice to marry according to civil law or religious law is not a secular state. It’s a hybrid state. A secular state is a state where the only way for a marriage to be recognise is through it’s civil form. We know what happened when Hraoui tried to suggest a civil marriage as a choice.
  • A state where u can marry 4 women based on religious texts is not a secular state. In a secular state you marry one person.
  • A state where personal status And heritage and succession laws, is based on religious texts is not a secular state. Everyone should abide by civil laws when it comes to personal status.
  • A state where a religious party, whatever it is, Christian, Muslim, Druze, is allowed to keep an army 10 times stronger than the national army is not a secular state.
  • A state where the Vice President is Christian if the president is Muslim, or Muslim if the president is Christian is not a secular state. In a secular state the religion of the person has zero effect. The president, the Vice President, the. Vice Vice President and the vice vice Vice President can all believe in a giant cosmic spaghetti monster floating in space if they wish, as long as it doesn’t influence their down to earth job.
  • Municipalities cannot forbid alcohol in a secular states or advertising for alcohol like in Tripoli or Nabatiyeh.
  • Except maybe for Christmas and Monday Easter, Adha and Fitr, all other Celebrations or holidays should be secular.
  • In a secular state No visible religious signs should be allowed in schools or public administrations. No cross, no Virgin Mary pictures, no veils and no verse from the Coran.
  • Even a senate based on religion should not exist in a true secular state.
And many more examples...

Aoun knows perfectly that most Muslims will never accept this or will try to give their own interpretation to what a secular state is. Like Erdogan is doing in Turkey actually which is light-years away from the secular state pictured by Ataturk.

Christians on the other hand will firmly stick with an either 100% fully and totally implemented secular state with zero place for religion, or we keep the current sectarian system for the next 100 years. Debates will be heated over it.

Finally, when it will clearly appear that Implementing a true secular state is impossible, other options will start being considered like federalism. Lebanon is not just a multi-religious society it’s also a multicultural society. Belonging to different religions makes people overtime develop different way of thinking and cultures.

I personally see a perfect Lebanon as a federal country where:

1- The federal State is responsible only for Defense (one army) and foreign affairs. Nothing more.

2- There is no individual head of state, but a counsel of 8-12 people who, when they meet, act collectively as a collegial head of state. Switzerland and Bosnia-Herzegovina have a similar system.

3- The President of the presidential counsel is not the head of state. He is the first among equals (primus inter pares) he receives embassadors, speaks on official occasions and his term is short. A year like in Switzerland then another member presides the Counsel.

4- Each autonomous region has its parlement, Governement, police forces, own courts, own laws and own rules. Maybe the Shia region wants to ban wine, beer, bikini and alcohol, let them be free to do it. Maybe the Christian region wants to adapt the Lebanese language as the official regional language, written in Latin alphabet. Let them do it also.

I am pretty sure that when time will come to seriously discuss a new national pact or a new system for the country, federalism will be the only viable option on the table, otherwise we will remain stuck forever with the 1943 sectarian system.

Why make religious holidays an exception? If it must be truly secular or completely, then even religious holidays should not be marked, whether Christmas or whichever Eid.

Knowing you well on this forum, your mission or interest has never been to have a secular state in Lebanon, or even just a civil state, as per Taef accord - which sets a road map for it. Your mission has always been sectarian and to establish federalism as a channel to further your sectarian divisions and renew the historical conflicts we have had. You do not want to grow up and leave the past mistakes behind. You want to renew divisions and conflict. And such an attitude will only further weaken, isolate and defame your community, giving them an image that reflects their opposition to nationhood/statehood.

Federalism has never been an option for the Lebanese. It isnt part of Taef which was agreed upon and it isnt part of the aspirations of people generally. But I dont want to be offensive or hurt your feelings or dampen your enthusiasm. As I have always maintained, if we are to undo the present system, the decision should first come from a nationwide referendum. It isnt sectarian warlords or sectarian heroes who should make the decision on our behalf as people. And whatever options we have at hand, including federalism, should be put forward for a vote. The two options with the most votes would go for a final round of voting for the people to select one system.

Most people imagine that implementing a secular or even a civil state that is de-sectarianized, as per the Taef accord, means undoing religions altogether or in particular, undoing Islam. Secularism thus, in their view, becomes a weapon to fight their sectarian battles and promote their grudges against the other religion. If you can exempt observing religious holidays in a secular state of your vision and agree they can be celebrated officially, then we can also work out a secular state to suit our purpose and to match our aspirations.

We do not have to copy Switzerland and we dont have to copy any other country. We can work out an exemplary secular state where everyone is happy and secure and let other countries see us as the example to emulate. How about that? Of course, each issue would have to be discussed and analyzed individually and agreed upon.
 
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SAVO

Member
a new pact is urgently needed among za'ayter and D'jaafar tribes..

وقع اشتباكات عنيفة في حي الشراونة ببعلبك، بين آل جعفر وآل زعيتر، حيث هناك اطلاق نار كثيف واطلاق قذائف صاروخي
 

O Brother

Legendary Member
true citizenship starts with equality between all its people under one civil rights code.
backwards religious inheritance law, backward religious custody laws and backwards religious anything courts must disappear for a unified civilan representation. this is how as a citizen you know that ur rights are not baffled by the whims of useless texts and corupt clergymen and your offspring are not discriminated between them.

I guess all your "civilized laws" will be based from international western organizations like UN ?

Our religious laws moved the world forward and allowed women to inherit among other things some 1400 years ago!
Islamic jurisprudence can always do better and even improve better.. its jobs is to make it as much fair and justice based as possible after all!

Nations have tried to enforce western values and western based secularism on our people and after 100 years they failed!
Just look at Turkey and Iran were enforced with western secularism and it all collapsed! In Iran a religious extremist elements took over instead..
In Turkey they are slowly and softly undoing the Kemalist cultural destructive era!

Enforcing on all people by force one set of ideology is not a way to move forward but to go backward!


Honestly, it should start with people sitting their royal "fondements" on a chair, and start discussing, exchanging and working.

Secularism won't happen overnight and it requires many items and topics to be discussed, addressed and implemented.

Introducing civil laws on personal status, marriage etc. will require months of discussion and elaboration by legal experts and then a progressive implementation as it will also require a preparation in the administrative and judicial sectors (courts, judges, lawyers etc. who will need to be trained etc.).

Same as for all the other changes : electoral law, organization and funding of the polical parties, adoption of a new bloc of constitutionality (with a special set of freedoms), gosh it's a tremendous project.

And of course, the question of HA weapons will be among all the other items to be discussed. That is, how to deal with it, in the best of our interests and with regards to the necessity to have a strong State enforcing the new deal.

It's time to work on it, not to carry on with our usual akel israeli hummus (to remain polite).

Ya but who are these people? Where can they be found.. do we have leaders who can be entrusted with such huge mission ?
Last time I read some history this all happened in other nations after the collapse of a system, wars or by enforcing it all on the people!

I don't think it is even doable without any change in the region as whole..

I think it is all far fetched for now.. Also in our region the secularist turned to be the bloodiest and harshest of all just look in Syria the same regime who claimed to be secular is extremely sectarian and have big trust issues with people from different affiliations.. so what does it do? It give most high ranked posts to people belonging to the Alawite sect in the army for example and this is supposed to be a secular regime!

Similarly in Lebanon the zu3amah who are claiming to support secularism are actually the most sectarian of all just look at berri or hariri or aoun.. these three all claims to be for secularism yet all their actions and what they have been fighting for was very sectarian based!

People tend to mix the religious with the sectarianism.. they are not the same!

Lebanon will never ever be a strong country it is just too small for that and it will always be influenced by the big ones!
This is the reality of things.. Our biggest problem is regional if the region is prospering we will naturally prosper with it internally!

The Western colonial state so called israel in our region is strong only because of all the support it keeps getting from all the main Western powers!
If they stop supporting.. that entity would be in extreme decline and wouldn't have lasted long!


When Lebanese marry abroad, do they register in religious courts according to their mazhab? You register in a civil or secular court and then to suit your beliefs, you hold a private religious ceremony at home or at the place of worship. What's wrong with that?

When it comes to inheritance, it is what you write as your will that would be executed. If you like give your male children whatever percentage and your female children whatever percentage. I dont see a problem in all of these issues.

You have to be more specific where abroad.. I would guess you mean Western countries.. so you basically see their laws as good role model to follow by the letter?

There are many wrongs with what you are saying..
I'm not sure if you are one those so called cultural Muslims.. but go ask what the religious shiite thinks about it!

If people will be forced to different beliefs than their own they tend to organize themselves outside the state and even go as far as making their own courts!

It might even lead for many people not even registering their marriage..
I think the best solution here is to allow both religious and secular marriage.. banning one will just swap the places of the problem and not solving it!

What might not be so important for some might be extremely important for others and so why can we not respect this?
 
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Achilles

Active Member
Federalism is a very complex system that the lebanese will never be able to implement.

We are aiming for the stars, when we are swimming in sewage and walking on garbage
In agree the system is broken, however, we lack maturity for federalism. Foreign affairs and military i highly contentious state affairs.

Partition might be a better start, then states could unify if they feel appropriate.

Partition is more a matter of international decision rather than a local Lebanese decision. I think that a full federal country like Bosnia or Switzerland (a system that goes further and beyond other federal systems like Germany, Belgium and others) has the advantages of partition, while keeping also the benefits of a Unitarian country.

I think there's a general confusion on what "dawla madaniya" is.

Dawal Madaniya is NOT Dawla 3elmaniya e.g Secular State

Dawal madaniya = Civic State (or Civil) based on "civic nationalism" philosophy or "liberal nationalism" (not to be confused with the modern "liberalism" idea"), it is the opposite of "ethnic/religious nationalism"

In a Civic State, any person who is a citizen of the state is a member of the "nation" with equal political, legal, economical, etc rights and obligations regardless of religious belief, skin color, ethnic background, spoken language, etc.... in ethnic nationalism, people are considered part of the nation only if they belong the a specific ethnic or religious group

A Secular State is similar (hence the confusion) but it also means that the State does not recognize religious groups and citizens' religious beliefs.

Many are using the 2 terms interchangeably, and i belief a clearer meaning of the term is due for everyone.

Often in Lebanon a term is thrown out and everyone starts repeating it without really understanding its full meaning and the agenda behind it.

The advocates of "dawla madaniya" have now a moral obligation to clearly explain to all Lebanese what is their personal understanding of that term.

You are right , it needs clarification. The choice should be either full and total secularism, without playing on the words, without hidden intentions, without a sectarian system in disguise, or we keep the current 1943 system forever. Either total separation of state and religion in every single tinny matter, or we remain with the current system. Since I guess Muslims will never accept a total secular system, federalism will be the only other option on the table if we wanna get rid of the 1943 rotten pact.

Why make religious holidays an exception? If it must be truly secular or completely, then even religious holidays should not be marked, whether Christmas or whichever Eid.

Personally I don’t mind, but for tradition and history purposes, the big cultural/religious events like Christmas, Easter, Adha and Fitr could remain official holidays. But it’s ridiculous to have Ashoura, Mar Maroun, Assumption, Mawled, hégire year, Armenian new year, etc. Being celebrated As official dayS in a secular state. Too many religious holidays keeps people in a sectarian state of mind. If I want to celebrate Mar Maroun I can go to church on February 9, no need for all public institutions to close that day.

Knowing you well on this forum, your mission or interest has never been to have a secular state in Lebanon, or even just a civil state, as per Taef accord - which sets a road map for it. Your mission has always been sectarian and to establish federalism as a channel to further your sectarian divisions and renew the historical conflicts we have had. You do not want to grow up and leave the past mistakes behind. You want to renew divisions and conflict. And such an attitude will only further weaken, isolate and defame your community, giving them an image that reflects their opposition to nationhood/statehood.

That’s not true Rafidi. When you acknowledge, accept and recognize differences, you can live in harmony with others. If people wants to pretend that there are no cultural differences between communities in Lebanon, then this will keep leading to frustrations and problems, and keeping people living in a fake situation.

After all federalism is not an alien system. It’s a well proved system, used in plenty of multicultural countries. We are already living now in a bad federal system. When you as a Muslim cannot buy an appartement in Hadath because of a regional decision, it means we are already living in a bad federal system. When you cannot advertise for a beer in Tripoli or Nabatiyeh because of another local decision, it means we are already living in a bad federal system. When the Lebanese Courts can’t do anything against these local racist decisions, it means we are already in a bad federal system. So a good federal system will organise all this instead of keeping those decisions in the hand of mayors or local administrators.

Federalism has never been an option for the Lebanese. It isnt part of Taef which was agreed upon and it isnt part of the aspirations of people generally. But I dont want to be offensive or hurt your feelings or dampen your enthusiasm. As I have always maintained, if we are to undo the present system, the decision should first come from a nationwide referendum. It isnt sectarian warlords or sectarian heroes who should make the decision on our behalf as people. And whatever options we have at hand, including federalism, should be put forward for a vote. The two options with the most votes would go for a final round of voting for the people to select one system.

Yes and No. it’s true that any change needs the approval of the main sects in this country but not through a referendum because of obvious demographically imbalances since 1943. Lebanon was built from the beginning as a federation of sects, as a pact between sects. Therefore all sects must agree on a change or we remain with the 1943 system forever.

You may think federalism will never happen ; I think exactly the opposite, that sooner or later it will. BTW what is the widen decentralisation or regionalisation mentioned in the Taef pact? Words are not important. If decentralisation is widen enough it can go beyond federalism.


Most people imagine that implementing a secular or even a civil state that is de-sectarianized, as per the Taef accord, means undoing religions altogether or in particular, undoing Islam. Secularism thus, in their view, becomes a weapon to fight their sectarian battles and promote their grudges against the other religion. If you can exempt observing religious holidays in a secular state of your vision and agree they can be celebrated officially, then we can also work out a secular state to suit our purpose and to match our aspirations.

This is the trap in which Christians should not fall. To use secularism as a vehicle to make Lebanon a Muslim state in disguise, like Erdogan is doing now in Turkey.

Christians should stick with either turning Lebanon into the most secular country in history of mankind, or To go for federalism or to keep the current system. And trust me this is what’s going to happen when the time to seriously discuss about a new system will come. You will see how difficult and probably impossible it will be to agree on a secular civil state, hence federalism as a second option.

We do not have to copy Switzerland and we dont have to copy any other country. We can work out an exemplary secular state where everyone is happy and secure and let other countries see us as the example to emulate. How about that? Of course, each issue would have to be discussed and analyzed individually and agreed upon.

We do not have to copy anyone, but we do not have also to create a hybrid system in which secularism or civil state will only exist as some written texts, while people will keep voting and running the country in a sectarian way, with the difference that minorities will not be able to have a say anymore.

Lebanon a century ago was not built on these principles, it was built on a balance (a fake balance, but nevertheless a Balance) between christians and Muslims. Any system which could turn Lebanon into a Muslim country in disguise (I say Muslim because now, and contrary to when Lebanon was created, are an overwhelming majority. I would have say “Christians” if Christians were still a majority like in 1932) will not be accepted. Any secular system with “exceptions” is not a bulletproof system protecting minorities.

I guess all your "civilized laws" will be based from international western organizations like UN ?

Our religious laws moved the world forward and allowed women to inherit among other things some 1400 years ago!

Islamic jurisprudence can always do better and even improve better.. its jobs is to make it as much fair and justice based as possible after all!

Let’s respectfully agree to disagree on this. I would not like my country to be ruled by a 1400 years old law. These kind of arguments are another point in favour of federalism. Let people who wanna live according to rules created in the 7th century be able to do it, and people who wanna live by modern rules be free to do it also. In a federal system both are possible.
 

Iron Maiden

Paragon of Bacon
Orange Room Supporter
I guess all your "civilized laws" will be based from international western organizations like UN ?

Our religious laws moved the world forward and allowed women to inherit among other things some 1400 years ago!
Islamic jurisprudence can always do better and even improve better.. its jobs is to make it as much fair and justice based as possible after all!

Nations have tried to enforce western values and western based secularism on our people and after 100 years they failed!
Just look at Turkey and Iran were enforced with western secularism and it all collapsed! In Iran a religious extremist elements took over instead..
In Turkey they are slowly and softly undoing the Kemalist cultural destructive era!

Enforcing on all people by force one set of ideology is not a way to move forward but to go backward!




Ya but who are these people? Where can they be found.. do we have leaders who can be entrusted with such huge mission ?
Last time I read some history this all happened in other nations after the collapse of a system, wars or by enforcing it all on the people!

I don't think it is even doable without any change in the region as whole..

I think it is all far fetched for now.. Also in our region the secularist turned to be the bloodiest and harshest of all just look in Syria the same regime who claimed to be secular is extremely sectarian and have big trust issues with people from different affiliations.. so what does it do? It give most high ranked posts to people belonging to the Alawite sect in the army for example and this is supposed to be a secular regime!

Similarly in Lebanon the zu3amah who are claiming to support secularism are actually the most sectarian of all just look at berri or hariri or aoun.. these three all claims to be for secularism yet all their actions and what they have been fighting for was very sectarian based!

People tend to mix the religious with the sectarianism.. they are not the same!

Lebanon will never ever be a strong country it is just too small for that and it will always be influenced by the big ones!
This is the reality of things.. Our biggest problem is regional if the region is prospering we will naturally prosper with it internally!

The Western colonial state so called israel in our region is strong only because of all the support it keeps getting from all the main Western powers!
If they stop supporting.. that entity would be in extreme decline and wouldn't have lasted long!




You have to be more specific where abroad.. I would guess you mean Western countries.. so you basically see their laws as good role model to follow by the letter?

There are many wrongs with what you are saying..
I'm not sure if you are one those so called cultural Muslims.. but go ask what the religious shiite thinks about it!

If people will be forced to different beliefs than their own they tend to organize themselves outside the state and even go as far as making their own courts!

It might even lead for many people not even registering their marriage..
I think the best solution here is to allow both religious and secular marriage.. banning one will just swap the places of the problem and not solving it!

What might not be so important for some might be extremely important for others and so why can we not respect this?
wlak eeeeh khallik 3eyish in the 1400 years ago of your “golden” era 😂

look dear person with a huge identity problem, here is how things stand: you have the secular west & you have the secular east that dominate you economically, culturally, militarily and in any other “ary” way you might conceive.
your backwards laws based on divine texts have made your region the shit show of the world with nothing to show for itself.
unless you want to move on with your life and get carpet bombed for the forseeable future this region as a whole, and lebanon in particular, needs to put together a solid set of equal civic laws and start forming a nation with people that actual want to belong to it.
if not then there will be strife, corruption and war untill hell freezes over or one sect slaughters everyone else.
your holy scriptures can be shown in a museum somewhere and we can charge visitors 5$ for the privilege of looking at it :D
 

O Brother

Legendary Member
Let’s respectfully agree to disagree on this. I would not like my country to be ruled by a 1400 years old law. These kind of arguments are another point in favour of federalism. Let people who wanna live according to rules created in the 7th century be able to do it, and people who wanna live by modern rules be free to do it also. In a federal system both are possible.

I never argued to live by 1400 years old laws!
I was making the argument that religious laws moved the world forward and so why would it stop today?

I think the best solution is for both world to coexist.. enforcing an ideology over another means confrontations and if that something we both do not want then we must find a way to allow these differences without dictating things over others!

Muslims historically when they were strong they did it to some extent and many different religious people lived together!
That doesn't mean I'm suggesting identical rule of that past!
 

O Brother

Legendary Member
wlak eeeeh khallik 3eyish in the 1400 years ago of your “golden” era 😂

look dear person with a huge identity problem, here is how things stand: you have the secular west & you have the secular east that dominate you economically, culturally, militarily and in any other “ary” way you might conceive.
your backwards laws based on divine texts have made your region the shit show of the world with nothing to show for itself.
unless you want to move on with your life and get carpet bombed for the forseeable future this region as a whole, and lebanon in particular, needs to put together a solid set of equal civic laws and start forming a nation with people that actual want to belong to it.
if not then there will be strife, corruption and war untill hell freezes over or one sect slaughters everyone else.
your holy scriptures can be shown in a museum somewhere and we can charge visitors 5$ for the privilege of looking at it :D

Yahh carpet bombing seems very civilized so ya sure why not let them keep doing it :lol:
What makes you so sure that our weakness will be forever ?

Our world moved the world forward starting with ending two great empires one was western and the other was eastern!
And nothing stops this from happening all over again even if it all sounds far fetched for us all but that was the case even back then! :cool:
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Partition is more a matter of international decision rather than a local Lebanese decision. I think that a full federal country like Bosnia or Switzerland (a system that goes further and beyond other federal systems like Germany, Belgium and others) has the advantages of partition, while keeping also the benefits of a Unitarian country.



You are right , it needs clarification. The choice should be either full and total secularism, without playing on the words, without hidden intentions, without a sectarian system in disguise, or we keep the current 1943 system forever. Either total separation of state and religion in every single tinny matter, or we remain with the current system. Since I guess Muslims will never accept a total secular system, federalism will be the only other option on the table if we wanna get rid of the 1943 rotten pact.



Personally I don’t mind, but for tradition and history purposes, the big cultural/religious events like Christmas, Easter, Adha and Fitr could remain official holidays. But it’s ridiculous to have Ashoura, Mar Maroun, Assumption, Mawled, hégire year, Armenian new year, etc. Being celebrated As official dayS in a secular state. Too many religious holidays keeps people in a sectarian state of mind. If I want to celebrate Mar Maroun I can go to church on February 9, no need for all public institutions to close that day.



That’s not true Rafidi. When you acknowledge, accept and recognize differences, you can live in harmony with others. If people wants to pretend that there are no cultural differences between communities in Lebanon, then this will keep leading to frustrations and problems, and keeping people living in a fake situation.

After all federalism is not an alien system. It’s a well proved system, used in plenty of multicultural countries. We are already living now in a bad federal system. When you as a Muslim cannot buy an appartement in Hadath because of a regional decision, it means we are already living in a bad federal system. When you cannot advertise for a beer in Tripoli or Nabatiyeh because of another local decision, it means we are already living in a bad federal system. When the Lebanese Courts can’t do anything against these local racist decisions, it means we are already in a bad federal system. So a good federal system will organise all this instead of keeping those decisions in the hand of mayors or local administrators.



Yes and No. it’s true that any change needs the approval of the main sects in this country but not through a referendum because of obvious demographically imbalances since 1943. Lebanon was built from the beginning as a federation of sects, as a pact between sects. Therefore all sects must agree on a change or we remain with the 1943 system forever.

You may think federalism will never happen ; I think exactly the opposite, that sooner or later it will. BTW what is the widen decentralisation or regionalisation mentioned in the Taef pact? Words are not important. If decentralisation is widen enough it can go beyond federalism.




This is the trap in which Christians should not fall. To use secularism as a vehicle to make Lebanon a Muslim state in disguise, like Erdogan is doing now in Turkey.

Christians should stick with either turning Lebanon into the most secular country in history of mankind, or To go for federalism or to keep the current system. And trust me this is what’s going to happen when the time to seriously discuss about a new system will come. You will see how difficult and probably impossible it will be to agree on a secular civil state, hence federalism as a second option.



We do not have to copy anyone, but we do not have also to create a hybrid system in which secularism or civil state will only exist as some written texts, while people will keep voting and running the country in a sectarian way, with the difference that minorities will not be able to have a say anymore.

Lebanon a century ago was not built on these principles, it was built on a balance (a fake balance, but nevertheless a Balance) between christians and Muslims. Any system which could turn Lebanon into a Muslim country in disguise (I say Muslim because now, and contrary to when Lebanon was created, are an overwhelming majority. I would have say “Christians” if Christians were still a majority like in 1932) will not be accepted. Any secular system with “exceptions” is not a bulletproof system protecting minorities.



Let’s respectfully agree to disagree on this. I would not like my country to be ruled by a 1400 years old law. These kind of arguments are another point in favour of federalism. Let people who wanna live according to rules created in the 7th century be able to do it, and people who wanna live by modern rules be free to do it also. In a federal system both are possible.

From the very beginning of what is called Lebanon the people had or have no say. Nothing new. Were people asked if they wanted to be part of Lebanon or Syria or to remain a part of France? The first mistake. We need to revisit this over again. Should we be independent, part of Syria or join France?

Then there was the one and only census in 1932. After supposedly over 5 centuries of "Ottoman Muslim oppression, domination, marginalization and victimization", our Christian brothers claimed they were a majority and used that as the basis for sectatian domination, ceding the presidency with full executive powers to only one Christian sect!

There was a so called national pact, that was neither national nor a pact, imposed on the people. Did they consult with the people? Not at all. It didn't matter. The people never matter in Lebanon. It is always the rule of the brutes.

Of course, there was a constitution that everyone is still singing about. They keep talking about respecting the constitution. Did they put the constitution to a referendum vote before it was adopted? As a Lebanese, did I or my grandfather or father accept that constitution to be the official document to govern our country? Not at all. Did the people of Lebanon approve that constitution? Not at all. But we must respect the constitution anyways.

Then the warlords fought themselves and destroyed the countries for 15 years. They ended up agreeing on the Taef accord. Again, the Lebanese people were absent. They fought among themselves and agreed to share the loot and impose an accord on the country. Did these corrupt warlords resort to the people, in whose name they supposedly spoke, to seek their opinion? Of course not. Another accord imposed.

Now we are attempting to have a new, modern and progressive regime, will they resort to the people to decide what form of regime they want and what new constitution they would approve of? Of course, the warlords, corrupt clerics and spiritual heads - who are more materialistic than paper money itself, and some confused politicians think they should decide one more time for the people who are disregarded and absent in deciding what country they want for themselves and their children.

Dont Lebanon have a people? Why should the people not have a say in/on everything?

Until the people regain their power and sovereignty and be the ones to determine or decide on every small and big issue, Lebanon would continue to be a playing field for the corrupt, the ruthless and the brutal and ungodly, both internal and foreign players . The people must vote for MPs, whose job should be strictly legislative and to watch over the govt performance. The people should vote for their leaders, whether the president or PM. The people should decide on all and both small and big issues through referendums.

Lebanon's problems are too easy to solve. But Lebanese are too stubborn, corrupt, hateful and wicked to themselves. You read that right. Read it again and let it sink in. Our solution is to go back to the people collectively. And whatever most of the people decide should be respected by all. Quite simple, yet very difficult to achieve or accept by the complex Lebanese psyche.
 

Iron Maiden

Paragon of Bacon
Orange Room Supporter
Yahh carpet bombing seems very civilized so ya sure why not let them keep doing it :lol:
What makes you so sure that our weakness will be forever ?

Our world moved the world forward starting with ending two great empires one was western and the other was eastern!
And nothing stops this from happening all over again even if it all sounds far fetched for us all but that was the case even back then! :cool:
ya ok m8

takbeer and stuff
 

O Brother

Legendary Member
You know what was truly illegal @Rafidi

Joining the so called UN!
It was never our choice let it be as people or as state!

If you look at history it was a complete Western European colonial decision that they took themselves across many of their colonial states all over the world.. Lebanon, Syria etc. for example joined the UN under the french occupation or what they like to call french mandate.

Just look at the early official posters of so called UN and tell me where do we fit in within all this?

The world of the Allies vs the Axis was not our world but theirs!

Our miseries as so called 3rd world countries is rooted here..






 

lebnan_lilkel

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
the announcement by the president is not an orphan step. as hinted already by some FPM officials and even by some news outlets, there is a complete plan that has been in the making for a while and will be announced in due time. the president's announcement was not a shot in the dark either, but was only made after closely the studying the alternatives and ensuring that the situation is ripe both internally and internationally. the proposed solution should balance the requirements for viable civil state that could actually survive its own shortcomings. some serious time and effort have been invested into this, and the next few junctions will bring witness to that, in the hope that this time around Lebanon could embark on the right path.
I hope they spent more time on this than the electricity plan ? .. is it going to take another 15 years ? ...
SHN s plan to a civil society is 1000 per cent different to the definition. ..The secret plans by guys that never grew in a civil society rings alarm bells. It's not some coffee flavour at Starbucks. It requires a lot of education and will. The will to work in collaboration. Without bias. I can't find any 2 that trust each other within any party. You lead by example. The examples we have are terrifying.
 

Iron Maiden

Paragon of Bacon
Orange Room Supporter
You know what was truly illegal @Rafidi

Joining the so called UN!
It was never our choice let it be as people or as state!

If you look at history it was a complete Western European colonial decision that they took themselves across many of their colonial states all over the world.. Lebanon, Syria etc. for example joined the UN under the french occupation or what they like to call french mandate.

Just look at the early official posters of so called UN and tell me where do we fit in within all this?

The world of the Allies vs the Axis was not our world but theirs!

Our miseries as so called 3rd world countries is rooted here..






yes exactly the UN is the reason the islamic civilization is a complete and utter mess 😂😂😂😂

next step for you: the earth is flat! OH WAI..
 
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