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Lebanon - A New Pact?

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Lebanon will always stay sectarian. Don't dream.

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elias-aj

Legendary Member
Lebanon will always stay sectarian. Don't dream.

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Never mind Robin, we can always try... One never knows, with Macron distributing slaps right and left, it might pass lol 😂 😂😂 I heard even Jumblatt became secular and Francophile lol
 

mike89

Active Member
Orange Room Supporter
The basis of a state free of sectarian rules is for the people to agree on a universal set of duties and rights that apply to everyone without exeptions.

Starting from a till z. Every domain of the relationship between the state, the citizen and the citizen between each other should be ruled by these sets of rules on an equal matter. If the people agree on that, then there should be no problems.
Discrimination is the main problem for people to distrust the state. If that is to be abolished, no sectarian umbrella would be needed by any community to feel safe.

Agree on that set of rules and duties, and we re set and on course.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Never mind Robin, we can always try... One never knows, with Macron distributing slaps right and left, it might pass lol I heard even Jumblatt became secular and Francophile lol
We really need France to annex us.

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Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The basis of a state free of sectarian rules is for the people to agree on a universal set of duties and rights that apply to everyone without exeptions.

Starting from a till z. Every domain of the relationship between the state, the citizen and the citizen between each other should be ruled by these sets of rules on an equal matter. If the people agree on that, then there should be no problems.
Discrimination is the main problem for people to distrust the state. If that is to be abolished, no sectarian umbrella would be needed by any community to feel safe.

Agree on that set of rules and duties, and we re set and on course.
Agreeing will be hard.
And we shouldn't also forget the role of the clergy. Will Muslim clerics support banning polygamy? Will the Maronite Church support allowing divorce for Maronites?

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mike89

Active Member
Orange Room Supporter
Agreeing will be hard.
And we shouldn't also forget the role of the clergy. Will Muslim clerics support banning polygamy? Will the Maronite Church support allowing divorce for Maronites?

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Good point. I hope people can emancipate themselves from such ideologies and agree on some common ground to build a solid foundation. I know I would vote to keep the church in the church and not to give the clergy more power and influence than they re bound to have.
 

shadow1

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Never mind Robin, we can always try... One never knows, with Macron distributing slaps right and left, it might pass lol 😂 😂😂 I heard even Jumblatt became secular and Francophile lol
One does know but one doesnt want to admit it. what would take you to admit the bleeding obvious? How many generations should try before they discover what many many generations before it tried and failed. If anything the situation is getting worse not better. Junblatt or non Jumblatt one small press comference often said for public consumption does not change the stark reality that Islam and Christianity cannot co-exist peacefully , let alone permanently unless there is one dominant culture in the country which, at least culturally, subjucates the rest and offers them a temporary respite. That temporary might extend for generations but it has no permanency about it. A secular state in a muslim majority country is so impossible that it would be too silly to contemplate it in the first state.

Leb leaders are talking about a civic state whatever that means. The term itself means to Berri what it does not mean to Aoun. If you are a christian pack your things and go. The majority has and I don't see them lining up at Airlines offices to buy a one way ticket back to Lebanon. Just because there is a minority of idealistic and liberal minded people on each side of the aisle does not mean that they can make a slight difference in the thinking of the majority.

The best thing one should aim and strive for is to get out alive. Sooner or later that will not be the case. For the time being mutual deceit is the best one can hope for until one sorts out one's affairs and go. History in this part of the world goes only in one direction. It might stray off of it for a little while but eventually it goes back to it. It has to. God wouldnt want it otherwise.
 

elias-aj

Legendary Member
One does know but one doesnt want to admit it. what would take you to admit the bleeding obvious? How many generations should try before they discover what many many generations before it tried and failed. If anything the situation is getting worse not better. Junblatt or non Jumblatt one small press comference often said for public consumption does not change the stark reality that Islam and Christianity cannot co-exist peacefully , let alone permanently unless there is one dominant culture in the country which, at least culturally, subjucates the rest and offers them a temporary respite. That temporary might extend for generations but it has no permanency about it. A secular state in a muslim majority country is so impossible that it would be too silly to contemplate it in the first state.

Leb leaders are talking about a civic state whatever that means. The term itself means to Berri what it does not mean to Aoun. If you are a christian pack your things and go. The majority has and I don't see them lining up at Airlines offices to buy a one way ticket back to Lebanon. Just because there is a minority of idealistic and liberal minded people on each side of the aisle does not mean that they can make a slight difference in the thinking of the majority.

The best thing one should aim and strive for is to get out alive. Sooner or later that will not be the case. For the time being mutual deceit is the best one can hope for until one sorts out one's affairs and go. History in this part of the world goes only in one direction. It might stray off of it for a little while but eventually it goes back to it. It has to. God wouldnt want it otherwise.

I don’t believe in determinism or fatalism. Western Europe found a way to put an end to centuries of bloodiest wars. So it’s not impossible that 4 million Lebanese also found a way at some point... today or in 10 or more years. There are only minorities in Lebanon so ...
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Its a shi3ite who invented electricity? العلماء بكوا من دقة منشورو

ذكرني بهداك يلي قال إنو الإمام علي كان أول واحد بيمشي على القمر

We need @Rafidi to confirm those 2 pieces of information

He is probably referring to this man who is originally from Nabatieh:


His electrical inventions are detailed in his Arabic page on Wikipedia:


And when it comes to the question of who invented, discovered or created electricity, you get so many answers. You hear different names. From Benjamin Franklin, to Tesla, to Edisson, to Faraday.

Our Lebanese brother is probably claiming Hassan Kamel al Sabbah did, possibly in terms of electical applications.
 
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shadow1

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I don’t believe in determinism or fatalism. Western Europe found a way to put an end to centuries of bloodiest wars. So it’s not impossible that 4 million Lebanese also found a way at some point... today or in 10 or more years. There are only minorities in Lebanon so ...
good luck
 

Genius

Legendary Member
Partition is more a matter of international decision rather than a local Lebanese decision. I think that a full federal country like Bosnia or Switzerland (a system that goes further and beyond other federal systems like Germany, Belgium and others) has the advantages of partition, while keeping also the benefits of a Unitarian country.



You are right , it needs clarification. The choice should be either full and total secularism, without playing on the words, without hidden intentions, without a sectarian system in disguise, or we keep the current 1943 system forever. Either total separation of state and religion in every single tinny matter, or we remain with the current system. Since I guess Muslims will never accept a total secular system, federalism will be the only other option on the table if we wanna get rid of the 1943 rotten pact.



Personally I don’t mind, but for tradition and history purposes, the big cultural/religious events like Christmas, Easter, Adha and Fitr could remain official holidays. But it’s ridiculous to have Ashoura, Mar Maroun, Assumption, Mawled, hégire year, Armenian new year, etc. Being celebrated As official dayS in a secular state. Too many religious holidays keeps people in a sectarian state of mind. If I want to celebrate Mar Maroun I can go to church on February 9, no need for all public institutions to close that day.



That’s not true Rafidi. When you acknowledge, accept and recognize differences, you can live in harmony with others. If people wants to pretend that there are no cultural differences between communities in Lebanon, then this will keep leading to frustrations and problems, and keeping people living in a fake situation.

After all federalism is not an alien system. It’s a well proved system, used in plenty of multicultural countries. We are already living now in a bad federal system. When you as a Muslim cannot buy an appartement in Hadath because of a regional decision, it means we are already living in a bad federal system. When you cannot advertise for a beer in Tripoli or Nabatiyeh because of another local decision, it means we are already living in a bad federal system. When the Lebanese Courts can’t do anything against these local racist decisions, it means we are already in a bad federal system. So a good federal system will organise all this instead of keeping those decisions in the hand of mayors or local administrators.



Yes and No. it’s true that any change needs the approval of the main sects in this country but not through a referendum because of obvious demographically imbalances since 1943. Lebanon was built from the beginning as a federation of sects, as a pact between sects. Therefore all sects must agree on a change or we remain with the 1943 system forever.

You may think federalism will never happen ; I think exactly the opposite, that sooner or later it will. BTW what is the widen decentralisation or regionalisation mentioned in the Taef pact? Words are not important. If decentralisation is widen enough it can go beyond federalism.




This is the trap in which Christians should not fall. To use secularism as a vehicle to make Lebanon a Muslim state in disguise, like Erdogan is doing now in Turkey.

Christians should stick with either turning Lebanon into the most secular country in history of mankind, or To go for federalism or to keep the current system. And trust me this is what’s going to happen when the time to seriously discuss about a new system will come. You will see how difficult and probably impossible it will be to agree on a secular civil state, hence federalism as a second option.



We do not have to copy anyone, but we do not have also to create a hybrid system in which secularism or civil state will only exist as some written texts, while people will keep voting and running the country in a sectarian way, with the difference that minorities will not be able to have a say anymore.

Lebanon a century ago was not built on these principles, it was built on a balance (a fake balance, but nevertheless a Balance) between christians and Muslims. Any system which could turn Lebanon into a Muslim country in disguise (I say Muslim because now, and contrary to when Lebanon was created, are an overwhelming majority. I would have say “Christians” if Christians were still a majority like in 1932) will not be accepted. Any secular system with “exceptions” is not a bulletproof system protecting minorities.



Let’s respectfully agree to disagree on this. I would not like my country to be ruled by a 1400 years old law. These kind of arguments are another point in favour of federalism. Let people who wanna live according to rules created in the 7th century be able to do it, and people who wanna live by modern rules be free to do it also. In a federal system both are possible.

Federalism is achieved when the state is too large to govern such as the United states and canada, or when the country contains some distinctions which would be better handled in federal states such as switzerland.
In both cases, the distinct groups already have a minimum understanding and maturity to form together and collectively the federal state.
In the case of lebanon, similar to former Yugoslavia the groups are foes, hate each others and should would could not be the foundations of a state.
Enemies partition. Divorce and separate.
 
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