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Lebanon - A New Pact?

SeaAb

SeaAb

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In the West, they are a minority.

But in neighborhoods where they are a majority, they do impose their ways as much as they can:

- Attacking Christian preachers in Dearborn
- Closing schools for ramadan in New York
- Forbidding women to enter cafés in Paris
Etc.
 
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  • HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid

    Active Member
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    In the West, they are a minority.

    But in neighborhoods where they are a majority, they do impose their ways as much as they can:

    - Attacking Christian preachers in Dearborn
    - Closing schools for ramadan in New York
    - Forbidding women to enter cafés in Paris
    Etc.
    "They" and "their ways." Let's at least do this without resorting to jins atel-esque otherization.

    I don't know much about the first point, but my understanding is that this was one incident? I don't think anyone can credibly say that there is some sort of Islamic Code being imposed in Dearborn. And if anyone does say that, then... they haven't been there.

    On closing schools in NY. It wasn't for Ramadan, it was for Eid el Adha and Eid el Fitr. And it was the very definition of a group of folks acting within the civic society and fabric of the state. I know because I was involved. It included small rallies in city hall, often interfaith. It included lobbying council members, the mayor, and other city officials. In the very same way a group would lobby for better sidewalks, paved roads, and school supplies. I'm not really seeing the problem with this? And I don't know how this imposes anyone's ways. We have Jewish holidays off in the US. Many school districts are also including Diwali as a holiday now in US states after sustained lobbying by the Indian-American community. What's the difference?

    Forbidding women entering cafes in Paris is bad. I don't know anything about this, but it should be stopped. I don't know that it's emblematic of an entire faith though. I lived in Jordan, for example, never had a problem entering cafes. I could've done without the cat calling though. 🙄
     
    Iron Maiden

    Iron Maiden

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    "They" and "their ways." Let's at least do this without resorting to jins atel-esque otherization.

    I don't know much about the first point, but my understanding is that this was one incident? I don't think anyone can credibly say that there is some sort of Islamic Code being imposed in Dearborn. And if anyone does say that, then... they haven't been there.

    On closing schools in NY. It wasn't for Ramadan, it was for Eid el Adha and Eid el Fitr. And it was the very definition of a group of folks acting within the civic society and fabric of the state. I know because I was involved. It included small rallies in city hall, often interfaith. It included lobbying council members, the mayor, and other city officials. In the very same way a group would lobby for better sidewalks, paved roads, and school supplies. I'm not really seeing the problem with this? And I don't know how this imposes anyone's ways. We have Jewish holidays off in the US. Many school districts are also including Diwali as a holiday now in US states after sustained lobbying by the Indian-American community. What's the difference?

    Forbidding women entering cafes in Paris is bad. I don't know anything about this, but it should be stopped. I don't know that it's emblematic of an entire faith though. I lived in Jordan, for example, never had a problem entering cafes. I could've done without the cat calling though. 🙄
    the Communitarianism and shunning of republican and secular values for islamic ones in france is very real and macron along is gvt have made it one their main fights for the end of his term.

    people are shutting in and refusing to meld into society’s fabric prefering to self-ostracize for watever reasons they may choose.

    its nothing new in europe, there will always be muslims immigrants who accept the social fabric and those who live on its fringes.
    the problem is that those who talk about those issues are becoming less and less vocal as they age and die off whilst the radicals become more vocal and enforce their retarded ways on their local communities.

    this debate has been going on for a long while now and i dont feel like going into it, but you going to rallies and witnessing intermingling doesnt mean there arent whole blocks where you wouldnt be welcome because of who you are ie: kuffar
     
    HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid

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    the Communitarianism and shunning of republican and secular values for islamic ones in france is very real and macron along is gvt have made it one their main fights for the end of his term.

    people are shutting in and refusing to meld into society’s fabric prefering to self-ostracize for watever reasons they may choose.

    its nothing new in europe, there will always be muslims immigrants who accept the social fabric and those who live on its fringes.
    the problem is that those who talk about those issues are becoming less and less vocal as they age and die off whilst the radicals become more vocal and enforce their retarded ways on their local communities.

    this debate has been going on for a long while now and i dont feel like going into it, but you going to rallies and witnessing intermingling doesnt mean there arent whole blocks where you wouldnt be welcome because of who you are ie: kuffar
    I'm not dying to get in this fight either lol. I was responding to the idea that Muslims in Lebanon will never accept a secular social pact. And your own post refutes that in part. So I dunno what I'm trying to get out of going further into this rabbit hole, but here it goes:

    I don’t follow Europe’s politics and social issues closely, but I’ve spent long enough in Marseilles to realize that Europe’s Muslim-immigrant community dynamics are very different from those in Canada and the US and we can't talk about them like one-in-the-same, which lends further credence to the fact that the claim I was responding to was baseless. This issue of Europe-North American immigrant divide is also the subject of a pretty vibrant social and academic debate among American Muslims (esp South Asians). And I’m sure the reasons are both structural and communitarian. Like I said, I don’t know much about it. But to say that all Muslims in Paris readily accept a bunch of extremists imposing their backwards values on the community is reductive.

    Which gets me back to my main point, to say an entire group of people, on the basis of one characteristic cannot accept a secular social pact and therefore impose “their will” on the community is RIDICULOUS. In addition to that it is reductive and essentialist because it assumes that every individual in that community or their majority have the same will. And I cannot believe we keep going back to this. How is this different than labeling all Mid East Christians in3izeliyee or sohyouniyee?

    This is what this view essentially says: Muslims, on the basis of being Muslim, have only one interest, that is what Islam dictates, and therefore they cannot simultaneously be interested in secular education for their kids, career opportunities and equal treatment for women, healthcare for their families, and paying taxes to participate in the provision of those essentials to non-Muslim members of their communities. Can you see how wildly out of line with reality that is? All because a minority are loud, outspoken radicals likely to the detriment and consternation of their own communities and co-religionists more than anything?

    And thanks for the condescending comment like I’m a child who showed up to a rally. I worked for someone being lobbied on the issue. The whole point was the dynamics of that entire process was not the Muslim community imposing an Islamic code on the poor, unsuspecting locals, it was exactly what would take place when a community has accepted the local social pact. And no, there aren’t Muslim-majority communities in the US that I won’t be able to walk through, but feel free to let me know if you get harassed or whatever next time you’re in Bay Ridge or Dearborn or if you want eatery recommendations. Again, accepting that Europe’s dynamics may be different in this regard. I will say I was pretty ****ing terrified at a gas station by myself at a gas station in bumblefuck North Carolina some years back--confederate flag, pick up truck, teenage white boys, and an artillery of guns. I didn't even fill up gas.
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    lebanon reached year zero...
    wrong political economy and corruption lead to that..
    but in uch situation , one should say ...ok i am on this stage i need to restart from somewhere.. fighting corruption and apply new political economy...

    till now no one talked about a new way of doing thing .. they are keeping on the previous one and still fighting on ministeries as their share ...
     
    Indie

    Indie

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    otherization
    Oh boy...

    On closing schools in NY. It wasn't for Ramadan, it was for Eid el Adha and Eid el Fitr. And it was the very definition of a group of folks acting within the civic society and fabric of the state. I know because I was involved.
    This is the very definition of a group of folks using the fabric of a democratic state to promote an undemocratic religion.
     
    Indie

    Indie

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    Why are they doing this? What's the deal?
    It's been going on for a few years. Everytime they see Christian preachers walking in that area, they attack them.

    The police allows it, and sometimes even arrests the preachers because their presence is causing problems. Note that it's not their behaviour that's the problem, since they're doing nothing wrong, but their mere presence.

    One year, they even arrested Nabil Qureishi (a Christian converted from a Muslim background).

    Watch the end of the video and listen to what one of the Christians says to the police.

    The Muslims basically control the area because of their numbers. They are even inside the police department. There's a video out there of an Arab police officer joining the Muslims in mocking a Christian preacher as "trailer trash."
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member

    During the 2012 Arab International Festival held this past June in Dearborn, Michigan, a group of Christian evangelists were pelted with stones, bottles, and debris by Muslim youths while deputies from the Wayne County Sheriff's Office stood idly by, allowing the criminal assault to take place. Many of the Christians were bloodied by the attack. When Ruben Israel, the leader of the Christian group, asked the law enforcement officers present to step in and enforce the criminal law so that the Christians could exercise their right to freedom of speech, Israel was given the option of either leaving the festival or facing arrest. Israel retained the legal services of the American Freedom Law Center (AFLC), a national, nonprofit public interest law firm that specializes in defending the free speech rights of Christians. AFLC plans to file a federal civil rights lawsuit on behalf of Israel and the Christian group, whose constitutional rights were violated by the Wayne County Sheriff's Office. Robert Muise, Co-Founder and Senior Counsel of AFLC, commented, "Whether you agree or disagree with the Christians' message, there is one issue to which there is no dispute: no citizen should be stoned in a city street in America for exercising his constitutional right to freedom of speech. And what makes this case so egregious is that law enforcement officers were present and made the conscious choice to allow the Muslim mob to silence the Christian speakers through violence. Indeed, the video of the incident looks like something you would see in the Middle East, not in the United States." AFLC Co-Founder and Senior Counsel David Yerushalmi, an expert on sharia (Islamic law) added, "While it is shocking to see video of Christians being stoned in the United States for criticizing Islam, it is not necessarily surprising that this incident occurred in Dearborn, Michigan, a city where the mayor and law enforcement have consistently violated Christians' free speech rights in favor of appeasing a large Muslim population and where, in line with the Islamic legal dictates of sharia, the Christian Gospel is treated as criminally offensive speech, and violence 'for the sake of Allah' is reinforced by arresting or removing the Christians. What you are witnessing on the video is the enforcement of sharia by a hostile mob and law enforcement aiding and abetting." Israel asked AFLC to assist him and his fellow Christians with their legal challenge because of the experience, expertise, and successful track record of Muise and Yerushalmi, who are no strangers to the challenges Christians face in Dearborn, a city that has earned a reputation as being hostile toward Christians.



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    HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid

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    Why are they doing this? What's the deal?
    It's a local evangelical churchgoers/leaders show up at the Arab festival, insist on going in and demand that the festival goers debate them about why they're going to hell for being Muslim and then sue the city of Dearborn so they can win lawsuits (which are mostly a slam dunk) allowing them to continue to do this time and again, which increases the city's liability, so then the festival is often canceled because the organizers can't afford the liability insurance that would be required to keep it going. It obviously doesn't justify the festival goers acting like a mob, but let's not pretend like they're not going there to be intentionally provocative. These are deliberate actions to set up these kinds of lawsuits.



     
    Indie

    Indie

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    It's a local evangelical churchgoers/leaders show up at the Arab festival, insist on going in and demand that the festival goers debate them about why they're going to hell for being Muslim and then sue the city of Dearborn so they can win lawsuits (which are mostly a slam dunk) allowing them to continue to do this time and again, which increases the city's liability, so then the festival is often canceled because the organizers can't afford the liability insurance that would be required to keep it going. It obviously doesn't justify the festival goers acting like a mob, but let's not pretend like they're not going there to be intentionally provocative. These are deliberate actions to set up these kinds of lawsuits.



    Way to twist reality...

    Anyone who has heard Nabeel Qureshi speak knows that he and his friends are not the type to provoke people in a manipulative attempt to create fake lawsuits. They are all about spreading the message of Christianity in a peaceful way. If that provokes some people, that's on those people.

    Unfortunately, it has become routine for islamists and their apologists to misbehave, then gaslight people by claiming to be the victims.


     
    Indie

    Indie

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    @SoFP1 I'll let you decide if this sounds like someone who would walk in an Arab festival and demand that the Muslims there debate him about why "they're going to hell."

    If you don't have the time to watch the whole video, his answer to the first question will give you an idea what kind of person he is.

     
    Indie

    Indie

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    During the 2012 Arab International Festival held this past June in Dearborn, Michigan, a group of Christian evangelists were pelted with stones, bottles, and debris by Muslim youths while deputies from the Wayne County Sheriff's Office stood idly by, allowing the criminal assault to take place. Many of the Christians were bloodied by the attack. When Ruben Israel, the leader of the Christian group, asked the law enforcement officers present to step in and enforce the criminal law so that the Christians could exercise their right to freedom of speech, Israel was given the option of either leaving the festival or facing arrest. Israel retained the legal services of the American Freedom Law Center (AFLC), a national, nonprofit public interest law firm that specializes in defending the free speech rights of Christians. AFLC plans to file a federal civil rights lawsuit on behalf of Israel and the Christian group, whose constitutional rights were violated by the Wayne County Sheriff's Office. Robert Muise, Co-Founder and Senior Counsel of AFLC, commented, "Whether you agree or disagree with the Christians' message, there is one issue to which there is no dispute: no citizen should be stoned in a city street in America for exercising his constitutional right to freedom of speech. And what makes this case so egregious is that law enforcement officers were present and made the conscious choice to allow the Muslim mob to silence the Christian speakers through violence. Indeed, the video of the incident looks like something you would see in the Middle East, not in the United States." AFLC Co-Founder and Senior Counsel David Yerushalmi, an expert on sharia (Islamic law) added, "While it is shocking to see video of Christians being stoned in the United States for criticizing Islam, it is not necessarily surprising that this incident occurred in Dearborn, Michigan, a city where the mayor and law enforcement have consistently violated Christians' free speech rights in favor of appeasing a large Muslim population and where, in line with the Islamic legal dictates of sharia, the Christian Gospel is treated as criminally offensive speech, and violence 'for the sake of Allah' is reinforced by arresting or removing the Christians. What you are witnessing on the video is the enforcement of sharia by a hostile mob and law enforcement aiding and abetting." Israel asked AFLC to assist him and his fellow Christians with their legal challenge because of the experience, expertise, and successful track record of Muise and Yerushalmi, who are no strangers to the challenges Christians face in Dearborn, a city that has earned a reputation as being hostile toward Christians.



    View attachment 21161
    Thank you for standing with the truth, even though your family is from a Muslim background. It's nice that at least some people realize that Christians are not simply being bigots, and that they have genuine concerns.
     
    HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid

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    Way to twist reality...

    Anyone who has heard Nabeel Qureshi speak knows that he and his friends are not the type to provoke people in a manipulative attempt to create fake lawsuits. They are all about spreading the message of Christianity in a peaceful way. If that provokes some people, that's on those people.

    Unfortunately, it has become routine for islamists and their apologists to misbehave, then gaslight people by claiming to be the victims.


    Love to be called a dhimmi.

    If you want US evangelicals, through the use of manipulated ideological media, to use disappearing Middle East indigenous Christians to fight their delusional impending clash of civilizations with "the Muslim World"--which they are attempting to bring about, apparently starting in the US, by doing antics to prove "Muslims bad"--be my guest. I most certainly want nothing to do with this and it's going to do nothing but hasten said disappearance. If that makes me a dhmmi, then so be it.
     
    Indie

    Indie

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    Love to be called a dhimmi.

    If you want US evangelicals, through the use of manipulated ideological media, to use disappearing Middle East indigenous Christians to fight their delusional impending clash of civilizations with "the Muslim World"--which they are attempting to bring about, apparently starting in the US, by doing antics to prove "Muslims bad"--be my guest. I most certainly want nothing to do with this and it's going to do nothing but hasten said disappearance. If that makes me a dhmmi, then so be it.
    I called you a dhimmi? Where? I don't even know what religion you belong to. I have no idea who you are, and I have nothing against you. I am only discussing your claims and stances.

    But if your idea of a discussion is strawmen & gaslighting sprinkled with "woke" terminology, then let's stop it here.

    Have a nice day.
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    Love to be called a dhimmi.

    If you want US evangelicals, through the use of manipulated ideological media, to use disappearing Middle East indigenous Christians to fight their delusional impending clash of civilizations with "the Muslim World"--which they are attempting to bring about, apparently starting in the US, by doing antics to prove "Muslims bad"--be my guest. I most certainly want nothing to do with this and it's going to do nothing but hasten said disappearance. If that makes me a dhmmi, then so be it.
    Of course you love being called a dhimmi when you live in democratic European countries. Try living a dhimmi first hypocrit
     
    T

    Thoma

    New Member
    Lest they end up becoming the useful idiots they almost always end up becoming, it is imperative for the so called social justice activists to always get to the bottom of the stances they activate (or agitate) themselves for (provided good intentions are involved in the first place). They never fail to always end up doing and causing the opposite of what they (most pretend to) proclaim essentially.

    Regarding the topic at hand (in particular on this page and in general on this thread), contrarily to what the so called social justice activists' typical preprogrammed impulsive replies imply, addressing and criticizing the Islamic religion in itself doesn't amount to being anti Muslims, any more than addressing and countering, say cancer, amounts to being anti cancer-patients. Off handedly equating the two (i.e. 'criticizing and countering Islam' = 'being anti Muslims'), as they often do, does however actually necessarily amount to being anti Muslim at the end of the day (or akin to being anti cancer-patient) if Islam happens to actually have a cancerous-like effect on humans; something which these activists never try to approach or settle either way and this is because of that wicked defective equation they operate by (the adoption of which is in turn caused by something deeper and more sinister in nature). Thus, no matter the seemingly rich and formal looking studies (brimming with all sorts of statistics and what not) which they always reference and employ in their response or defense, their response/defense will always remain categorically invalid, until and unless they first and foremost include and address Islam the religion in it and settle the aforementioned issue either way (this is the actually relevant point which they ought primarily address but actually always evade).

    Contrarily to what their defective and misleading rhetoric implies, no conclusion about 'a group drawn from an unrepresentative sample' is implied in or follows from addressing and criticizing Islam the religion head-on and concluding consequently that it causes and enables terrorism. If some Muslims are terrorist, and these terrorist Muslims act out their terrorism in accordance and reference to Islam, then acting in accordance and reference to Islam causes/allows terrorism; nowhere "all Muslims act in accordance to Islam and therefore all Muslims are terrorist" is implied or follows from the conclusion that 'Islam enables and causes terrorism'. Hasty or fallacious generalizations, however, do apply to nonsensical precepts those activists themselves implicitly adopt and operate by, such as their concealed nonsensical 'all ideologies likewise cause and enable terrorism, because this and that ideology (or some ideologies) cause and enable terrorism'. But poetic irony (and its benefit) is lost on them.

    The fact that seemingly different texts/ideologies/justifications could likewise justify or enable in effect a terrorism act, does not entail that all texts/ideologies/justifications are similar in respect of justifying or enabling such act. The terrorists, their victims, and the rest of the world (all of whom would be operating according to one ideology or another, i.e. all humans), past present and future, minus those so called social activists, are all together in agreement on this, because it is simply something that is too obvious and evident to ignore, deny or oppose, under the pain of immediate self-defeat.

    When a terrorist acts out their terrorism in proclaimed adherence or accordance to a certain ideology, rationality dictates that we humans all should bear the responsibility of addressing said ideology, either to absolve it of the possibly erroneous association involved (and condemn the actual ideology involved instead), or to properly classify it and condemn it as the terrorism enabling and causing ideology that it is.

    All Muslims, by definition or by virtue of being or identifying as Muslim, necessarily rely on a certain source or framework in/for being Muslim, and thus so would Muslim terrorists. Does such source or framework which the terrorist Muslim identify with or rely on as such, validly identify with/as Islam? If yes, then it follows that a) Islam causes terrorism, and b) this conclusion is no more anti Muslims than 'cancer causes destruction and death' is anti human or anti cancer-patients, and c) the fact that not all Muslims are terrorist (or conversely, that there exists peaceful Muslims around, or even that the majority of Muslims in the world appear non-terrorist or are not directly acting out their terrorism) is accounted for simply by the fact that not all Muslims are being Muslim enough (at a given point, just yet) for one reason or another.

    And just as with terrorism, so it is with any other societal topic. Are Muslims and secularism compatible? To answer and address that one would need to address and tackle whether or not Islam itself and secularism are compatible. Can and would a Muslim majority in a certain secular and democratic country eventually subvert secularism and democracy? Can a Muslim individual or community be truly or fully Muslim in a definitive secular environment? There's no escape from addressing religion in general and Islam in particular before re-establishing and upgrading the constitution and devising or imparting laws and policies in a society constituted of Muslims and non-Muslims.

    Secularism and democracy are not absolute. They themselves are conditioned in principle by a deeper set of precepts and foundation. I personally believe the president is more than sufficiently knowledgeable and cultured to be aware of this, and I trust him in laying in place the needed safeguards for securing that foundation in the process of establishing the much awaited modern and secular/civic state. A new and unique system it shall be, hopefully a Lebanese-made gift to the world.
     
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    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    Thank you for standing with the truth, even though your family is from a Muslim background. It's nice that at least some people realize that Christians are not simply being bigots, and that they have genuine concerns.
    u wrongly understand my stance ..
    i dunno the background of the people or the event or the whole story ..
    but when it comes to some groups of evangelist ( messianic or so on ) i happen to know some of those groups . lol they are fanatic sionist, worst than sionist themselves ..
    some of michigan arabs are palestinians .. so i can imagine the extent of those group provocation .. using islam to insult entire group of people ..
    as a matter of fact , islam and shariah here have nothing to do ,.. since most zealous muslim countries who follow shariah are de facto allies with those same evangelical groups ...

    PS: . please do not drag my family here .. since u dunno me , my family or anything about them .. comment on what i say here ,, myself .. and i am a godless atheist and u must live with that the same way i speak to you and consider you as you describe yourself to be "armenian catholic ".
     
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