Lebanon: the identity crisis

[ّTelefon Kasse]

So here's a simple question, is a citizen of Brazil Portuguese?

answer my question please, I am a Lebanese Arab, Arabic is my native language, I speak both french and english, some russian phrases,
I have no idea about Brazil's history nor that of Portugal

 

[Leb_Rebel]

Look, you're an Arab Muslim colonizer with an Arab Muslim colonizer identity. Fine, we get it, but keep your identity to yourself. Stop trying to force it on the much older and native population, the Christians.

'Lebanese' as an identity may be fairly recent, but the Christian identity is much older. Middle Eastern Christian have always had a separate ethnic and cultural identity from Muslims. And that's precisely why the term Lebanese as an identity for Christians was created. Prior to that, all Levantine Christians identified as Syrians and Syrian was synonymous for Christian, until Arab Muslims usurped the Syrian identity. Since now Muslims also identify as Lebanese, simply Christian is our identity now.

You speak as if Christians were United and always had one identity throughout history.

You seem to forget the irreconcilable differences between eastern and western churches on top of differences between Rome and Maronites.

Syrian/levantines were never known as Christians because Christians haven’t been the majority since the battle of Hattin.


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[Ice Tea]

You speak as if Christians were United and always had one identity throughout history.

You seem to forget the irreconcilable differences between eastern and western churches on top of differences between Rome and Maronites.

Syrian/levantines were never known as Christians because Christians haven’t been the majority since the battle of Hattin.


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Yes, despite small liturgical differences, there's always been a pan-Christian identity that unified all Christians throughout the region. It's not like we ever were like the Shias and Sunnis, that despite being the same religion have been killing each other for more than a millennia. ☠

And I'm saying that Christians identified as Syrians and always kept a native Levantine identity, as opposed to Muslims who identified as Arabs and have a colonizer identity. Even in the West in the late 19th/early 20th centuries when only Christians were allowed to immigrate there, Christians were referred as Syrians and Muslims as Arabs. Christians were allowed to immigrate there because they were seen as native Levantines related to Jesus.

 

[Leb_Rebel]

Yes, despite small liturgical differences, there's always been a pan-Christian identity that unified all Christians throughout the region. It's not like we ever were like the Shias and Sunnis, that despite being the same religion have been killing each other for more than a millennia.

And I'm saying that Christians identified as Syrians and always kept a native Levantine identity, as opposed to Muslims who identified as Arabs and have a colonizer identity. Even in the West in the late 19th/early 20th centuries when only Christians were allowed to immigrate there, Christians were referred as Syrians and Muslims as Arabs. Christians were allowed to immigrate there because they were seen as native Levantines related to Jesus.

Where do you get all that fake history from ?

Constantinople was sacked by the crusaders.
What more proof do you need that byzantins and rome were never one identity and Christians were never one as an identity

In the west the whole of the area were known as the levant and the people were known as Syrians or Levantines or Arabs without discrimination of religion.

That was the case from the mid 15 century till the mid 20th century when the power shifted from Europe to the USA and the levant changed to Middle East.

Also, Christians emigrated because of the Druze massacres, they didn’t emigrate because they were the only ones allowed...




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[Totenkopf]

answer my question please, I am a Lebanese Arab, Arabic is my native language, I speak both french and english, some russian phrases,
I have no idea about Brazil's history nor that of Portugal

I already answered your question in a previous reply, so I am answering your question again in a different way.
Are the citizens of Brazil Portuguese? Yes or No?
Are the citizens of Peru Spanish? Yes or No?

 

[Ice Tea]

I already answered your question in a previous reply, so I am answering your question again in a different way.
Are the citizens of Brazil Portuguese? Yes or No?
Are the citizens of Peru Spanish? Yes or No?

He's a Muslim. Of course he's gonna identify with the Arabian imperialists who colonized us. The important thing is us non-Muslims keep our identity seperated from theirs.

 

[Ice Tea]

Where do you get all that fake history from ?

Constantinople was sacked by the crusaders.
What more proof do you need that byzantins and rome were never one identity and Christians were never one as an identity

In the west the whole of the area were known as the levant and the people were known as Syrians or Levantines or Arabs without discrimination of religion.

That was the case from the mid 15 century till the mid 20th century when the power shifted from Europe to the USA and the levant changed to Middle East.

Also, Christians emigrated because of the Druze massacres, they didn’t emigrate because they were the only ones allowed...




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Constantinople was sacked by pirates and mercenaries, nor true Crusaders blessed by the Pope. There's never been any actual war or religious conflict between Catholics and Orthodox, unlike Shias and Sunnis.

And anyway, I was referring to Levantine Christians only.

 

[Nevermore]

If we were to judge humans' identities relative to their lived experiences, we'd have to look at how their modes and symbols of communication inform their worldview. It's not the only determinant, but people often process the world relative to the concepts that are relevant to their social and cultural experiences. That is, a devout Muslim will understand much of the world through the traditions provided by Islam (Qur'an and Sira), a phenomenon that is, more often than not, strange or unknown to Christians. Conversely, depending on your sect, a Christian will understand the world through concepts learned from Christian ritual and belief, like the Trinity, a concept strange to Muslims. Because language is so central to our communication and cultural experience, we can't overlook its importance in shaping identity.

That said, why is it so difficult to admit the fact that Levantine Muslims and Christians (and whomever else) have separate identities? Even further, Levantine Muslims have distinguishing features among them, like most Arabic-speaking Muslims have starkly different worldviews and experiences compared to Kurdish Muslims from the same region. The issue isn't, narrowly, whether we're Arab or not (answer: most likely not), but whether we understand the differences in our cultural experiences enough to admit that we all process the world in different ways. We are not all the same and using broad-brush terminology (Arab, Syrian, etc...) to cloak our differences only hides the fact that we haven't reconciled our differences with each other.

 

[ّTelefon Kasse]

nothing but accusations and attacks coming from the worshipers of the cross against Muslims which probably will lead to nothing but more problems in the future. If I want to shorten my reply and view things like you as Black and White, my answer would be:

"If you find so much pleasure reciting hate speech against Muslims, do it in a European crusader country, don't stand on top of a tiny mountain in Lebanon and rain insults against Muslims who happen to live all around it"

I tried so much to reason with you based on logic and historical facts but you insist on living in denial ... your identity doesn't start after the crucifix of the son of Mary. The people who lived in Lebanon and the surrounding areas were originally pagans, later jews, later christians, later muslims.

you guys want to turn Lebanon into another israel where you step on the necks of Muslims ... this is what your soul say and your mouth doesn't. IT WON'T HAPPEN !! every official in crusader countries KNOW !! FACTUALLY !! that the "country" of israel was MADE ... it never existed in history with its current borders .... who can guarantee that you are not originally Arab ? or I am not originally Israelite (the people of israel) ?

I chose Islam because I'm convinced not because my parents sent me to a Mosque ... I wake up in the morning and I hear my, now half deaf, dad insulting Mohammad and Islam first thing in the morning .... but I know that is due to his ignorance of Islam even though on the Lebanese sectarian system official papers, he is Muslim

 

[Totenkopf]

nothing but accusations and attacks coming from the worshipers of the cross against Muslims which probably will lead to nothing but more problems in the future. If I want to shorten my reply and view things like you as Black and White, my answer would be:

"If you find so much pleasure reciting hate speech against Muslims, do it in a European crusader country, don't stand on top of a tiny mountain in Lebanon and rain insults against Muslims who happen to live all around it"

I tried so much to reason with you based on logic and historical facts but you insist on living in denial ... your identity doesn't start after the crucifix of the son of Mary. The people who lived in Lebanon and the surrounding areas were originally pagans, later jews, later christians, later muslims.

you guys want to turn Lebanon into another israel where you step on the necks of Muslims ... this is what your soul say and your mouth doesn't. IT WON'T HAPPEN !! every official in crusader countries KNOW !! FACTUALLY !! that the "country" of israel was MADE ... it never existed in history with its current borders .... who can guarantee that you are not originally Arab ? or I am not originally Israelite (the people of israel) ?

I chose Islam because I'm convinced not because my parents sent me to a Mosque ... I wake up in the morning and I hear my, now half deaf, dad insulting Mohammad and Islam first thing in the morning .... but I know that is due to his ignorance of Islam even though on the Lebanese sectarian system official papers, he is Muslim

TK, khayye don't let the subject get derailed, please answer any of my questions:
Are the citizens of Brazil Portuguese? Yes or No?
Are the citizens of Peru Spanish? Yes or No?

We can open another thread about your excitement when it comes to the muslim invasions.

 

[ّTelefon Kasse]

TK, khayye don't let the subject get derailed, please answer any of my questions:
Are the citizens of Brazil Portuguese? Yes or No?
Are the citizens of Peru Spanish? Yes or No?
We can open another thread about your excitement when it comes to the muslim invasions.

You are hypocrite writing in such manner .. all you are good at is opening new threads when running away from questions.
I already told you clearly .. I don't know about Brazil nor Peru ... and definitely not the one derailing the subject title !!
my last post wasn't meant for you by the way

 

[Nevermore]

nothing but accusations and attacks coming from the worshipers of the cross against Muslims which probably will lead to nothing but more problems in the future.

Why would an open and honest discussion lead to problems? You use the language of "attacks and accusations" and in the same breath you use insulting terminology, like "worshippers of the cross", which truly shows a lack of understanding of our counterparts. If you truly read my post, you'd find that the argumentation might actually serve your cause well.

I tried so much to reason with you based on logic and historical facts but you insist on living in denial ... your identity doesn't start after the crucifix of the son of Mary. The people who lived in Lebanon and the surrounding areas were originally pagans, later jews, later christians, later muslims.

Exactly, so it would be simplistic to say that one blanket identity (Muslim, Arab, Christian, Syrian, whatever) can explain human identity.

I chose Islam because I'm convinced not because my parents sent me to a Mosque ... I wake up in the morning and I hear my, now half deaf, dad insulting Mohammad and Islam first thing in the morning .... but I know that is due to his ignorance of Islam even though on the Lebanese sectarian system official papers, he is Muslim

It's unfortunate that you have to experience this on a daily basis. Good on you for finding some peace in that seemingly unfriendly environment.

 

[Totenkopf]

You are hypocrite writing in such manner .. all you are good at is opening new threads when running away from questions.
I already told you clearly .. I don't know about Brazil nor Peru ... and definitely not the one derailing the subject title !!
my last post wasn't meant for you by the way

Ya TK ya habibi why are you so aggressive? I am not running away from this discussion and when I said don't let the subject get derailed I meant don't focus on the out of subject replies the others are writing.

Halla2 you want to convince me enno you never heard of Peru or Brazil or any South American country? Did you try wikipedia? rasmela a 10 min read and you'll be up to date about the last 500 years.

 

[Se3a]

Not only we are deeply divided when it comes to soccer or basketball, we have to always be divided when it comes to foreign crises...

and not only we are divided in our opinions of foreign crises, but we suffer from an identity crisis, so deep that we approach the event horizon of identity confusion.

We forgot we were Lebanese in the 50s; we forgot we are Lebanese in 75 when we were divided between pro-Palestinian/Arab, pro-West; we forgot we were Lebanese when the Syrian conflict erupted and we became pro-Assad vs. anti-Assad; and now we forget we are Lebanese in the Saudi-Iranian conflict.

We are now divided. Pro Iran vs Pro Saudi Arabia. So divided, we can easily start a war.

For one group of Lebanese, Iranians are angels and Saudi Arabia is the ultimate evil supporting ISIS, and for the opposing group Saudi Arabia is our fairy godmother (in lieu of France) and Iran is the ultimate evil.

One group bashes Iran left and right, calls them terrorists and wilayat el faqih... but God forbids SHN attacks Saudi Arabia on TV, the minister sends a formal apology to Iran. Walaww, Saudi Arabia helps lebanon, employs thousands, and sends us billions of dollars

The other group bashes Saudi Arabia and calls them Terrorists, but God forbids anyone criticizes Iran, walaww they support the resistance and rebuilt the southern suburb.

Hearing the news lately makes me sick. We don't care what we have in common within our country, we don't care about making our lives better, our economy better, our rights better, our country better.. .we only care who will win, Saudia or Iran? Our lives now hang on what's happening in Yemen (in lieu of Syria). Whether or who we will get for President depends on the nuclear talks between Iran and the US, and how Saudi Arabia will react...

let's admit it... we are pathetic. We are immature..

It's not abt identity TO. The identity is clear. affiliations doesn't have an impact on the identity itself but on the political process

 

[ّTelefon Kasse]

Ya TK ya habibi why are you so aggressive? I am not running away from this discussion and when I said don't let the subject get derailed I meant don't focus on the out of subject replies the others are writing.

1 - The thread doesn't belong to you, anyone can write their opinion, thrown in their arguments and receive a reply from anyone interested in the subject matter.
2 - How am I aggressive when I ask you a question, you refuse to answer it and you claimed you already did which is not true ... ignoring my question was an aggressive act from your side.

Halla2 you want to convince me enno you never heard of Peru or Brazil or any South American country? Did you try wikipedia? rasmela a 10 min read and you'll be up to date about the last 500 years.

I heard of them as countries, I just don't know about their history .. sorry to disappoint you and honestly not interested.
I noticed christians in Lebanon like to copy models from other countries and apply it to Lebanon and claim it is their true identity which in reality, is not the case at all and has led to a lot of problems in our Lebanese society and later on, other sects started doing the same too. As if we have become employees for other nations who copy cat them without thinking if such traditions, customs are healthy enough or apply to our society or not

 

[Totenkopf]

1 - The thread doesn't belong to you, anyone can write their opinion, thrown in their arguments and receive a reply from anyone interested in the subject matter.
2 - How am I aggressive when I ask you a question, you refuse to answer it and you claimed you already did which is not true ... ignoring my question was an aggressive act from your side.

1- I never claimed the thread belonged to me but there is clearly a reason why our discussion was moved here from the new members thread. This thread is not about Constantinople it is about the question of Lebanese identity.
2- I did answer it. The Lebanese are a mixture of people that settled and passed through this land. Can you deny this claim?
I also answered that I do NOT speak Arabic, I speak Lebanese, a mixture of languages that includes Arabic as well as other languages. Can you deny this?

I heard of them as countries, I just don't know about their history .. sorry to disappoint you and honestly not interested.
I noticed christians in Lebanon like to copy models from other countries and apply it to Lebanon and claim it is their true identity which in reality, is not the case at all and has led to a lot of problems in our Lebanese society and later on, other sects started doing the same too. As if we have become employees for other nations who copy cat them without thinking if such traditions, customs are healthy enough or apply to our society or not

I don't know what your rant is about, I did not discuss any foreign models or systems. The middle east is not the center of the universe, it's nice to broaden your vision. Again it costs 10 mins of reading time on wikipedia to get up2date on any south american country you like. Then you will better understand my answer.

 

[ّTelefon Kasse]

1- I never claimed the thread belonged to me but there is clearly a reason why our discussion was moved here from the new members thread. This thread is not about Constantinople it is about the question of Lebanese identity.

I wasn't the person who brought up Constantinople, your sect always does, especially the crusader members on this forum.
as for the thread, yes there's, when you started to escalate what I threw as a mere tease in the "new members please introduce yourself"

2- I did answer it. The Lebanese are a mixture of people that settled and passed through this land. Can you deny this claim?
I also answered that I do NOT speak Arabic, I speak Lebanese, a mixture of languages that includes Arabic as well as other languages. Can you deny this?

No I cannot deny that claim because this doesn't apply to Lebanon only but to most of the countries in the world, one example is our neighboring Syria and Egypt and Palestine and Jordan ... yet none of them refuse that their native language is Arabic and nowhere in the world people can claim their native language is a mixture of many languages which belonged to many foreign countries. There's always one official language and for Lebanon it's Arabic.

Due to our miserable sectarian life that sprouted organized corruption, we are forced to learn more than one language in order to find a job and make a living be it in Lebanon or overseas. The english language, the most used in the world .. yet the less spoken in Germany and Russia for example ... can you deny that fact ? Not because Germans nor Russians are dumb and don't understand the English language but because they feel proud about their native language that they even go as far as not replying to you when you talk in a language different than their own when you live and work in their country.

I don't know what your rant is about, I did not discuss any foreign models or systems. The middle east is not the center of the universe, it's nice to broaden your vision. Again it costs 10 mins of reading time on wikipedia to get up2date on any south american country you like. Then you will better understand my answer.

This is what I'm trying to convey to you, that "I don't like" and not interested about south america, I can barely keep up with my own local problems.
here, let me contradict you, the middle east is the center of the universe and that's a fact, because 80% of the world politics is about the fu##ing middle-east.

 

[Dynamite Joe]

here, let me contradict you, the middle east is the center of the universe and that's a fact, because 80% of the world politics is about the fu##ing middle-east.

Because 65% of OPEC oil reserves are in the Middle East. Apart of that and your Allah delusion, you are light years more evolved than the crusader primates on this forum.

 

[Totenkopf]

I wasn't the person who brought up Constantinople, your sect always does, especially the crusader members on this forum.
as for the thread, yes there's, when you started to escalate what I threw as a mere tease in the "new members please introduce yourself"

The level of discussion between me and you is going to be your sect and my sect? Can't one discuss objectively? It's not like you or I chose our sects.

No I cannot deny that claim because this doesn't apply to Lebanon only but to most of the countries in the world, one example is our neighboring Syria and Egypt and Palestine and Jordan ... yet none of them refuse that their native language is Arabic and nowhere in the world people can claim their native language is a mixture of many languages which belonged to many foreign countries. There's always one official language and for Lebanon it's Arabic.

Thank you for confirming that the Lebanese are a mixture of people that settled and passed through this land.
And thank you for also confirming that we do NOT speak Arabic, we speak Lebanese, a mixture of languages that includes Arabic as well as other languages.

I care less about how our surrounding countries behave, I care about facts and the facts as stated above support my position for identifying myself as Lebanese and only as Lebanese.

Due to our miserable sectarian life that sprouted organized corruption, we are forced to learn more than one language in order to find a job and make a living be it in Lebanon or overseas. The english language, the most used in the world .. yet the less spoken in Germany and Russia for example ... can you deny that fact ? Not because Germans nor Russians are dumb and don't understand the English language but because they feel proud about their native language that they even go as far as not replying to you when you talk in a language different than their own when you live and work in their country.

You are forced to learn more than one language due to globalization in trade and business. The world became smaller thanks to the internet. Sectarian life has nothing to do with it. Even Germany and Russia teach second languages in their schools, they are not islands in this world. No country is an island (obviously I am not speaking in a geographic sense here)

This is what I'm trying to convey to you, that "I don't like" and not interested about south america, I can barely keep up with my own local problems.
here, let me contradict you, the middle east is the center of the universe and that's a fact, because 80% of the world politics is about the fu##ing middle-east.

That's fine if you're not interested, what counts is you understood my justification above.
The ME is only important politically due to the Israeli state, all is done in order to ensure their survival in this region.
The other aspect is Oil, once oil is no longer as important (in less than 100 years)...well you know the rest.

 

[ّTelefon Kasse]

The level of discussion between me and you is going to be your sect and my sect? Can't one discuss objectively? It's not like you or I chose our sects.

of course we can discuss objectively, you and me as individuals but I mentioned "your sect and crusader members in this forum" to reference that the issue
of Constantinople was raised by them so many times and in previous years too. I can discuss openly and with logic, no problem.
Yes, unfortunately due to the Lebanese sectarian political system, you can't choose your sect but you can choose which religion to follow no problem.

Thank you for confirming that the Lebanese are a mixture of people that settled and passed through this land.
And thank you for also confirming that we do NOT speak Arabic, we speak Lebanese, a mixture of languages that includes Arabic as well as other languages.

No, I confirm the first one, not the second one .. I told you nowhere in the world this exists but in Lebanon, you can't say this is Lebanese ... because a French will pop up and tell you: "hey, this word is french !! it is mine !! " ... one time I was working in Jal el deeb, we had a french guy who knew the owner, he came to my workplace and said "bonjour tous le monde" and the guy next to me, charbel told him: "bonjouren" then the french guy said: "ca veut dire quoi "bonjouren" ?" ... I told him: "c'est la version Libanaise qui veut dire "deux bonjour" and then he replied: "bonjouren, ah non c'est pas du Francais correcte" <=== how humiliating is that ? it happened I didn't make that up

I care less about how our surrounding countries behave, I care about facts and the facts as stated above support my position for identifying myself as Lebanese and only as Lebanese.

you don't care about your surrounding neighboring countries who happen to have the same characteristics and historical facts are your country but you're asking me to fetsh for Barzil and Peru who are thousands of miles away, overseas ?

You are forced to learn more than one language due to globalization in trade and business. The world became smaller thanks to the internet. Sectarian life has nothing to do with it. Even Germany and Russia teach second languages in their schools, they are not islands in this world. No country is an island (obviously I am not speaking in a geographic sense here)

you said it yourself (a second Language) rarely spoken only on business occasions and trust me not perfectly spoken like we kill ourselves to do it in Lebanon (preserving the American or british accent too ), they just don't care !! they don't need it ... 1 out of 10 employees speak it .. it is enough for them to send this one person to promote their business abroad in a foreign country.
However according to your logic, in Lebanon we don't use English as a second language, we are forced to learn it perfectly and use it even in the workplace, even though all of us are Lebanese and can speak Arabic and understand each others very well. so why are we forced to use a language that is not ours in the first place ?

That's fine if you're not interested, what counts is you understood my justification above.
The ME is only important politically due to the Israeli state, all is done in order to ensure their survival in this region.
The other aspect is Oil, once oil is no longer as important (in less than 100 years)...well you know the rest.

For now, the "only important politically" whether you like it or not, the ME is making the globalized world economy spin, without its oil and gas, endless conflict, arms deals and israel ... the rest of the world is not a beautiful place as we envy ... remember in previous post, I called it the "Fu#$#ing middle east" ... yes we are sacrificing ourselves for the rest of the world happy life which you are dying to belong too but they consider you an expandable animal !!
keep living in denial bravo ..