Lebanon's Dam Projects Destructive or Constructive ?

Do you believe the dam projects in Lebanon are?

  • But/And is succeeding already, with no proved related corruptions!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9
Walidos

Walidos

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Halla2 you guys did the same thing to the power plan and are Now nagging there is no power...

boukra when there is no longer enough water - please post the nagging here... and blame Bassil :)
 
  • Advertisement
  • O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    Halla2 you guys did the same thing to the power plan and are Now nagging there is no power...

    boukra when there is no longer enough water - please post the nagging here... and blame Bassil :)

    eh eh keep thinking like this enou because people were nagging we don't have electricity!

    wlekkk man shwayet mante2 how many damned dam projects do we have ongoing right now?
    did any of these projects finish successfully ? at least finish the ones you are working on right now!

    There is enough water we just need reforms and renew the water systems..
    There are alternatives for dams than destroying our valleys all over the country..

    The problem is that you have not been listening and don't want to listen!
    You just want to support the dams because your za3im is behind most of them!
     
    Last edited:
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    سدّ بلعا: «بالوع» المال العامّ
    مجتمع مقالة رجا نجيم الجمعة 17 تموز 2020


    تسوّق وزارة الطاقة والمياه، منذ سنوات، لمشروع سدّ بلعا، على أنه «يوفر مياه الشفة بالضخّ والجاذبية للمناطق الواقعة في أعالي قضاء البترون وصولاً حتى الوسط»، وأن «حجم التخزين الثابت فيه حوالى 1.2 مليون م3، والمتحرك حوالى 2.1 مليون م3 سنوياً». غير أنّ سعة بحيرة سدّ بلعا، وفق المستندات الرسمية، تُراوح بين 1.2 و1.3 مليون متر مكعب.
    لكن الأهم أن هذا المشروع يشكّل فضيحة كبرى، بسبب إصرار الإدارة الرسمية على مواجهة الطبيعة، بعدما ظهرت بواليع عميقة (بواليع بلعا) تخرق أرضية موقع بحيرة السد، تتسرّب المياه عبرها. ولتغطية سوء التخطيط، عمد المهندسون إلى إضافة طبقات من الصخور والإسمنت إلى أرضيّة السدّ لتسكير منافذ البواليع والفراغات، تعدّت سماكتها وحجمها أضعاف سعة بحيرة السد، ما قلّص سعته المعلن عنها من قبل الوزارة. هذه المعالجة العقيمة تجري أشغالها من دون أيّ اكتراث أو حسبان لنتائجها، إذ إنّ ضغط المياه المخزّنة - مستقبلاً - على أرض غير ثابتة، سيحدث تشقّقات متوقّعة، تتسرّب المياه من خلالها إلى الفراغات الضخمة وجوف الأرض.
    القضيّة تتعدّى، إذاً، مسألة صخور كارستيّة مشقّقة، بل فجوات وبواليع عميقة جداً لا يُعرف مدى عمقها وقعرها. وعدم تراجع الوزارة عن المشروع، وإصرارها على تنفيذه، من دون مساءلتها أو محاسبة المهندسين والمتعهّدين المسؤولين عنه، يعنيان الاستمرار في «الترقيع» الذي يستحيل أن يُصحح الأخطاء، بل جلّ ما ينتج منه هو هدر المال العام.
    إلى التعدّي على البيئة والأضرار اللاحقة بالطبيعة بسبب أعمال السد وشقّ الطرقات لاستخراج الصخور (من تنورين والعاقورة وشاتين وبشتودار وسواها) لعمليّات «الترقيع»... فإنه من المستحيل أن يعطي مشروع السدّ النتائج المرجوّة منه خلال الفترة المخطّط لها. ومهما تقدّمت الأعمال فيه، حالياً، فإنه لن يجمع المياه المطلوبة لمدة 50 سنة بشكل دائم وكامل، بل إن العزل لن يبقى على حاله والتشقّقات ستظهر سريعاً، ولن يستطيع تجميع المياه لأكثر من 3 سنوات كأقصى تقدير.
    يُجمع الخبراء على عدم إنشاء سدود على سطح صخور كربوناتية كارستية. وهذا ما ينطبق على موقع سدّ بلعا، الذي يبعد نحو 250 متراً عن بالوع بلعا السياحي - الأثري الضخم. وقد تبيّن أن الفراغات العموديّة الضخمة المذكورة، ناتجة عن تسرب المياه إلى العمق الصخري خلال 60 مليون سنة من عمر صخر الجوراسيك الأعلى. هذه البواليع هي مسارب حقيقيّة نحو المنطقة المشبعة للمخزن الكارستي، وقدّر قعرها النهائي في آبار تنورين وبشتودار القريبة من الموقع على أعماق نحو 500 متر. وبالرغم من تفرّعاتها في العمق الصخري، أصرّ المتعهّد بعد إزالة الأتربة وكشف الفراغات، على إقفال الموقع ومنع زيارته. ولم يكلّف نفسه استشارة اختصاصيّين وجيولوجيّين، بل طُلب رأي شركة «أرتيليا» الاستشارية المتخصّصة بهندسة السدود.
    لو كان المشرفون على مشروع سد بلعا شفّافين، لكانوا أوقفوا الأعمال فيه، إذ لا يُعقل أن تصل الكلفة التقديريّة لمشروع، يعدّ صغير الحجم، إلى نحو 90 مليون دولار! فيما كانت كلفته في البداية نحو 26 مليون دولار، وهي كلفة مبالغ بها في الأساس.
    كل ذلك وموقع السد، موجود ضمن منطقة يحتوي جوفها على مخازن غنيّة بالمياه النقية، وفق دراسة لبرنامج الأمم المتحدّة الإنمائي وأخرى لشركة «الأرض» واختصاصيين آخرين لمصلحة وزارة الطاقة. وفي حين نُشرت آخر دراسة عام 2015 وأعلنت عنها وزارة الطاقة نفسها، فإنّها لم تأخذ بنتائجها لأنها لم تتناسب وخططها «الفاشلة وغير العلميّة». وهكذا، تتغاضى الوزارة عن موقع السدّ وتكوينه، الذي يشكّل تغذية طبيعيّة للمخزون الجوفي، مُحوّلةً إيّاه إلى تخزينٍ مكشوف للمياه السطحيّة!

    * اختصاصي تدقيق جودة



     
    Last edited:
    dyyyy

    dyyyy

    Well-Known Member
    Halla2 you guys did the same thing to the power plan and are Now nagging there is no power...

    boukra when there is no longer enough water - please post the nagging here... and blame Bassil :)
    You had the garbage plan the way you wanted, how did this work out with you ?
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    eh eh keep thinking like this enou because people were nagging we don't have electricity!

    wlekkk man shwayet mante2 how many damned dam projects do we have ongoing right now?
    did any of these projects finish successfully ? at least finish the ones you are working on right now!

    There is enough water we just need reforms and renew the water systems..
    There are alternatives for dams than destroying our valleys all over the country..

    The problem is that you have not been listening and don't want to listen!
    You just want to support the dams because your za3im is behind most of them!
    No no no... you don’t get to nag and accuse and Support politicians who block everything, and then complain that nothing has happened... doesn’t work...

    there is only 1 problem: people support politicians they like, regardless of projects. Bass, that’s it. Bassil could bring you the world on a silver platter and you would spit on his face and throw it to the sea, SHN can do the same and some will react the same way, geagea, berri, Gemayel, hariri... you will always find someone who is ready to throw it all away because they don’t like the person making it happen.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Halla2 you guys did the same thing to the power plan and are Now nagging there is no power...

    boukra when there is no longer enough water - please post the nagging here... and blame Bassil :)
    Will do.
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    No no no... you don’t get to nag and accuse and Support politicians who block everything, and then complain that nothing has happened... doesn’t work...

    there is only 1 problem: people support politicians they like, regardless of projects. Bass, that’s it. Bassil could bring you the world on a silver platter and you would spit on his face and throw it to the sea, SHN can do the same and some will react the same way, geagea, berri, Gemayel, hariri... you will always find someone who is ready to throw it all away because they don’t like the person making it happen.

    I really hope that all these experts and people speaking against the dams are wrong otherwise our nature would have been destroyed for nothing!!
    And beside all politicians agreed on the dam projects only different is that bassil is having the biggest slice of the dam cake!

    There are so many reasons to be against the dams but you don't even want to read about them or listen what the issue here is!
    Don't listen to us listen to what the experts are saying!

    You are supporting the destruction of Lebanon by supporting constructing these dams! Do you really think that the garbage plans is any different from the dam projects or from Solidere!?

    After all the same garbage people are behind the dam projects!

    I guess siyesit el batoun is all you people know!
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    @Walidos if you don't care about nature what about this for example from the balou3a article above...

    "لو كان المشرفون على مشروع سد بلعا شفّافين، لكانوا أوقفوا الأعمال فيه، إذ لا يُعقل أن تصل الكلفة التقديريّة لمشروع، يعدّ صغير الحجم، إلى نحو 90 مليون دولار! فيما كانت كلفته في البداية نحو 26 مليون دولار، وهي كلفة مبالغ بها في الأساس."


    From 26 millions of dollar to 90 millions? what the hell happened?
    Or do you believe this is false information? what do you think the case is here?
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I really hope that all these experts and people speaking against the dams are wrong otherwise our nature would have been destroyed for nothing!!
    And beside all politicians agreed on the dam projects only different is that bassil is having the biggest slice of the dam cake!

    There are so many reasons to be against the dams but you don't even want to read about them or listen what the issue here is!
    Don't listen to us listen to what the experts are saying!

    You are supporting the destruction of Lebanon by supporting constructing these dams! Do you really think that the garbage plans is any different from the dam projects or from Solidere!?

    After all the same garbage people are behind the dam projects!

    I guess siyesit el batoun is all you people know!
    No, I am supporting organised water distribution for irrigation, drinking and general usage. Dans are one way to do that and it is done all over the world. You are supporting wasting our water by not retaining and distributing it, on the other hand, you are nagging about water shortages and soon will start crying about it and blame the people who wanted to build dams saying “15 years in the ministry wou ma 3emlo shi”...
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    @Walidos if you don't care about nature what about this for example from the balou3a article above...

    "لو كان المشرفون على مشروع سد بلعا شفّافين، لكانوا أوقفوا الأعمال فيه، إذ لا يُعقل أن تصل الكلفة التقديريّة لمشروع، يعدّ صغير الحجم، إلى نحو 90 مليون دولار! فيما كانت كلفته في البداية نحو 26 مليون دولار، وهي كلفة مبالغ بها في الأساس."


    From 26 millions of dollar to 90 millions? what the hell happened?
    Or do you believe this is false information? what do you think the case is here?
    i think you are mixing 2 issues:
    1- should we build dams? I say yes, you seem to be saying no
    2- should we over pay to build dams. We are both saying no, only my no is we still need to build the dam, your no is to stop building the dam altogether
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    No, I am supporting organised water distribution for irrigation, drinking and general usage. Dans are one way to do that and it is done all over the world. You are supporting wasting our water by not retaining and distributing it, on the other hand, you are nagging about water shortages and soon will start crying about it and blame the people who wanted to build dams saying “15 years in the ministry wou ma 3emlo shi”...
    Lets fix our water network and organize it first then think about building all these dam projects all at once!
    And again was there any success in building in any of these dams if yes then please show me!

    There are many other solutions to water shortages where it doesn't cost so much as dams do!
    But no instead they want to destroy our nature and even end up with real water shortages!

    Lets take groundwater in Lebanon which the experts says is a renewable groundwater resource if we use it in sustainable/controlled way.. we could use it for our water shortage!

    i think you are mixing 2 issues:
    1- should we build dams? I say yes, you seem to be saying no
    2- should we over pay to build dams. We are both saying no, only my no is we still need to build the dam, your no is to stop building the dam altogether
    I'm not being totally against building dams but I think we should at least do it without destroying all the valleys of this country and most importantly consider all the negative sides of building a dam and if it is really worth it!

    But hey the people behind these destructive projects didn't even look into any alternatives at all..
    Unless you can show us any real study made by experts in this field that talks about all the alternatives!

    I guess not!

    And again you think we are in need of water but what about green spaces ?
    I just think in this time and age we really need to be more eco friendly here!

    Just look at the garbage issue where it got us! siyesit el batoun ma btenfa3 w nadam ma byenfa3 kamen!
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Lets fix our water network and organize it first then think about building all these dam projects all at once!
    And again was there any success in building in any of these dams if yes then please show me!

    There are many other solutions to water shortages where it doesn't cost so much as dams do!
    But no instead they want to destroy our nature and even end up with real water shortages!

    Lets take groundwater in Lebanon which the experts says is a renewable groundwater resource if we use it in sustainable/controlled way.. we could use it for our water shortage!



    I'm not being totally against building dams but I think we should at least do it without destroying all the valleys of this country and most importantly consider all the negative sides of building a dam and if it is really worth it!

    But hey the people behind these destructive projects didn't even look into any alternatives at all..
    Unless you can show us any real study made by experts in this field that talks about all the alternatives!

    I guess not!

    And again you think we are in need of water but what about green spaces ?
    I just think in this time and age we really need to be more eco friendly here!

    Just look at the garbage issue where it got us! siyesit el batoun ma btenfa3 w nadam ma byenfa3 kamen!
    First, Using up the ground water is more destructive to nature...!
    second, Who told you no one bothered to check anything?
    Third, the dams are still being built, and there is massive pressure to stop them, barke law you just let one finish you can reap the benefit...!
    Fourth, green spaces mean nothing if you don’t have water to keep them green. Dams are not the big bad destructive machines you make them up to be, you can have beautiful Spaces and around them.
    Fifth, yes there are other ways to retain water without building a dam, certainly not the ground water idea, but water retaining structures: they are significantly more expensive than dams.
    finally, i appreciate you have a different opinion, but let me ask you this: would you oppose the dams if it were another party other than FPM who is pushing for them?
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    First, Using up the ground water is more destructive to nature...!
    second, Who told you no one bothered to check anything?
    Third, the dams are still being built, and there is massive pressure to stop them, barke law you just let one finish you can reap the benefit...!
    Fourth, green spaces mean nothing if you don’t have water to keep them green. Dams are not the big bad destructive machines you make them up to be, you can have beautiful Spaces and around them.
    Fifth, yes there are other ways to retain water without building a dam, certainly not the ground water idea, but water retaining structures: they are significantly more expensive than dams.
    finally, i appreciate you have a different opinion, but let me ask you this: would you oppose the dams if it were another party other than FPM who is pushing for them?
    First of all I wasn't talking about fossil water, we are fortunate to have spectacular mountains tops working naturally as water towers that feeds our groundwater systems. And like I said renewable groundwater but it obviously must be used at balanced rate depending on many factors that must be followed at all times!

    Groundwater is obviously already being used to supply our dysfunctional water distribution systems, all I'm saying that I'm more into the idea of reconstructing and modernizing the current water distribution systems we have in the country to fix some issues we are facing!

    As for your second point, have you come across or heard about any academic study which is about at least some alternatives beside giant destructive dams? Sadly such study doesn't exist! Usually in projects like these ones you have to know the available alternatives and choose the best with least negative impacts!

    As for your third point many of these projects were supposed to be finished by now but the costs of each of these projects keeps increasing and facing serious natural obstacles.. as for pressure from those opposing the dam projects.. the only real pressure you are facing is in Marj Bisri while the rest nothing was stopping you really! so stop making lame excuses like the nagging excuse!

    Forth, we actually have water for our green spaces but you want to support turning what is left of our green spaces into giant dams!
    Large dams are actually known to be destructive to the environment, there is a good reason why many consider dams to be a necessary evil!

    Fifth, we are certainly not expert to say what is best here and without an academic study we would certainly not know what is best here!
    I have been listening to experts on this and they are not saying nice things, add to it the damage these projects will do is heartbreaking in itself for many people!

    Now unfortunately you think everything revolve around FPM while there are genuinely people who actually care about their environment and take great interest in these questions! You will probably not believe me if I told you that I would have said the same thing if any other side was behind these projects!

    For example I'm anti FM for destroying the real Beirut and turning it to an artificial city through the Solidere project among other things like their economical policies and for being extremely corrupts on all levels!

    In the same way I'm against these dam projects because they are destroying important ecosystems we have in the country even further more !
    If we are so in need for large dams maybe we should at least be successful with one or two projects of them before jumping to new ones ye3ni just imaging if all these projects fails.. that would be so catastrophic on gigantic level! ye3ni destroying these valleys is unforgivable so lets save marj bisri and what is left of this country!

    I get that the demand for water is increasing and we might be stressing our water resources in certain periods of the year but the biggest problem we are facing is actually an administrative and structural one lets start there and if we are need for dams lets have ones without destroying what is left of this country!

    Lebanon is naturally a renewable water reservoir in itself maybe they should find the best solutions that work around that without destroying big parts of it! ye3ni don't you think filling bawali3 with cement as heartbreaking ?

    Now don't take my words don't read what I say but you should listen to the experts who know what they are talking about..
    I have posted some interesting articles and video so why don't you start there if you are interested in this topic!

    I have tried to post both side of the story as much as I can!
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    First of all I wasn't talking about fossil water, we are fortunate to have spectacular mountains tops working naturally as water towers that feeds our groundwater systems. And like I said renewable groundwater but it obviously must be used at balanced rate depending on many factors that must be followed at all times!

    Groundwater is obviously already being used to supply our dysfunctional water distribution systems, all I'm saying that I'm more into the idea of reconstructing and modernizing the current water distribution systems we have in the country to fix some issues we are facing!

    As for your second point, have you come across or heard about any academic study which is about at least some alternatives beside giant destructive dams? Sadly such study doesn't exist! Usually in projects like these ones you have to know the available alternatives and choose the best with least negative impacts!

    As for your third point many of these projects were supposed to be finished by now but the costs of each of these projects keeps increasing and facing serious natural obstacles.. as for pressure from those opposing the dam projects.. the only real pressure you are facing is in Marj Bisri while the rest nothing was stopping you really! so stop making lame excuses like the nagging excuse!

    Forth, we actually have water for our green spaces but you want to support turning what is left of our green spaces into giant dams!
    Large dams are actually known to be destructive to the environment, there is a good reason why many consider dams to be a necessary evil!

    Fifth, we are certainly not expert to say what is best here and without an academic study we would certainly not know what is best here!
    I have been listening to experts on this and they are not saying nice things, add to it the damage these projects will do is heartbreaking in itself for many people!

    Now unfortunately you think everything revolve around FPM while there are genuinely people who actually care about their environment and take great interest in these questions! You will probably not believe me if I told you that I would have said the same thing if any other side was behind these projects!

    For example I'm anti FM for destroying the real Beirut and turning it to an artificial city through the Solidere project among other things like their economical policies and for being extremely corrupts on all levels!

    In the same way I'm against these dam projects because they are destroying important ecosystems we have in the country even further more !
    If we are so in need for large dams maybe we should at least be successful with one or two projects of them before jumping to new ones ye3ni just imaging if all these projects fails.. that would be so catastrophic on gigantic level! ye3ni destroying these valleys is unforgivable so lets save marj bisri and what is left of this country!

    I get that the demand for water is increasing and we might be stressing our water resources in certain periods of the year but the biggest problem we are facing is actually an administrative and structural one lets start there and if we are need for dams lets have ones without destroying what is left of this country!

    Lebanon is naturally a renewable water reservoir in itself maybe they should find the best solutions that work around that without destroying big parts of it! ye3ni don't you think filling bawali3 with cement as heartbreaking ?

    Now don't take my words don't read what I say but you should listen to the experts who know what they are talking about..
    I have posted some interesting articles and video so why don't you start there if you are interested in this topic!

    I have tried to post both side of the story as much as I can!
    So what you just did is admit you are not an expert, and assumed I am a 12 year old who is also not an expert... I will give you a hint: some of those speaking for Or against the dams have taught me at uni, or have worked with me in projects.
    I’ll stop there. If there were cheaper alternatives to dams I am all ears.

    PS: I couldn’t care less who is building the dams, the dams are needed and the cheapest way of using our water.
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    So what you just did is admit you are not an expert, and assumed I am a 12 year old who is also not an expert... I will give you a hint: some of those speaking for Or against the dams have taught me at uni, or have worked with me in projects.
    I’ll stop there. If there were cheaper alternatives to dams I am all ears.

    PS: I couldn’t care less who is building the dams, the dams are needed and the cheapest way of using our water.
    No obviously I'm not an expert but we are also not expert in waste managements either but we can see how the garbage is screwing our environment without being an expert! So we do not need to be experts to know about something like how these dams are destructive!

    You want to claim that the dam projects are the cheapest way for using our water, can you show me based on what study you are saying this?
    Or are you just making this up?

    It is up the ministry to tell us about what the alternatives are, we actually should demand it if they don't give us any!

    What is needed is not the dams what is needed is the water, there are different ways to how we can store it or get it but just assuming that we need dams without looking into the consequences is a serious problem here!

    The ones for the dams are literally gambling, this is how much they value this land!

    Just look at this beauty isn't it worth fighting for?

     
    Top