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Legalizing Civil Marriage in Lebanon!!!

CitizenOfTheRepublic

Legendary Member
Many people on here seem to think that Lebanon's problems will be solved by sectarian marriage.
How are we going to get a civil state when we still vote based on our sects and worship our leaders?
Having civil marriage won't turn us into non-sectarian people. It's not even due to religiosity, Lebanese don't care much about their religions (they curse God when they get angry), sects are more like tribes.
If you are really interested in moving away from the God-forsaken sectarian system then this is not just small step but a necessary step. When your government treats you not as a citizen but as a sect member that visibly makes things worse. In addition to the fact that it shoves a religion down your throat and forces you to submit to a religious court.

And let's not get into minority rights for the small amount of people who actually want a civil marriage, because in our God forsaken country minorities are just seen as slaves of the majority, haydeh esset minority rights in the country of minorities la2tinah men tiza.
 

Dalzi

Legendary Member
If you are really interested in moving away from the God-forsaken sectarian system then this is not just small step but a necessary step. When your government treats you not as a citizen but as a sect member that visibly makes things worse. In addition to the fact that it shoves a religion down your throat and forces you to submit to a religious court.

And let's not get into minority rights for the small amount of people who actually want a civil marriage, because in our God forsaken country minorities are just seen as slaves of the majority, haydeh esset minority rights in the country of minorities la2tinah men tiza.
Minority less priority :p Pension comes first.
 

CitizenOfTheRepublic

Legendary Member
Minority less priority :p Pension comes first.
Well from the looks of it, you are getting neither laws :-D

On a serious note, I don't see how one cannot tackle both? Enno we are paying all these MPs so they are able to handle one legislation at a time? And people underestimate what this legislation really means, they think it is just about 2 religion hating people wanting to marry. For me, this is more about protection of minority rights. Mesh la2enno I don't want to marry in a civil court I prevent everyone else of doing so, the state should take care of all its citizens.
 

Dalzi

Legendary Member
Well from the looks of it, you are getting neither laws :-D

On a serious note, I don't see how one cannot tackle both? Enno we are paying all these MPs so they are able to handle one legislation at a time? And people underestimate what this legislation really means, they think it is just about 2 religion hating people wanting to marry. For me, this is more about protection of minority rights. Mesh la2enno I don't want to marry in a civil court I prevent everyone else of doing so, the state should take care of all its citizens.
Yes, you are right... Our politicians are lazy irresponsible corrupt bastards!

Who marries outside his / her religion in Lebanon and doesn't risk a ban from the community? :p lol Risky business.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
If you are really interested in moving away from the God-forsaken sectarian system then this is not just small step but a necessary step. When your government treats you not as a citizen but as a sect member that visibly makes things worse. In addition to the fact that it shoves a religion down your throat and forces you to submit to a religious court.

And let's not get into minority rights for the small amount of people who actually want a civil marriage, because in our God forsaken country minorities are just seen as slaves of the majority, haydeh esset minority rights in the country of minorities la2tinah men tiza.

Well, when the Parliament is divided based on sects, civil marriage won't remove sectarianism.
Also, the nousous can't do much when there is no change in the noufous.
 

J. Abizeid

Well-Known Member
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/civil-marriage-struggle-lebanon-back-square-one

[h=1]Civil Marriage Struggle in Lebanon Back to Square One [/h]

Civil society activists protest in Martyr's Square in downtown Beirut for the right to have civil marriage on February 4, 2013. Al-Akhbar/Marwan Tahtah



Published Wednesday, February 4, 2015

Under the pretext of “fighting extremism” by “eliminating excuses,” Minister of Interior and Municipalities Nouhad al-Machnouk is determined to return the issue of civil marriage to square one, reversing all the progress made by non-sectarian forces. Former interior ministers Ziad Baroud and Marwan Charbel confirm that the procedures they followed to cross out confessional identities on civil registry records, and allow the registration of civil marriage contracts in Lebanon, were entirely legal, and that the reluctance to implement (or desire to annul) them is tantamount to stripping a segment of Lebanese citizens of their civil rights.

“This is further evidence of the collapse of the state and the absence of institutions,” - Talal Husseini, prominent activistsInterior Minister Machnouk’s statement began: “First, the minister of interior and municipalities supports the principle of optional civil marriage, but...” The root of the problem is evident in the opening of the statement. The issue is not with civil marriage itself, but rather with how the official state departments work. The minister reassures us that he supports civil marriage. Excellent: but what does that mean?Why should we care whether the minister is for or against civil marriage? The law permits Lebanese citizens to have a civil marriage on Lebanese soil. Thus, the minister’s opinion does not matter, unless we accept the novel idea that laws and regulations change or become invalid based on the views and whims of cabinet members, as seems to be the case today in the Ministry of Interior.
“This is further evidence of the collapse of the state and the absence of institutions,” says Talal al-Husseini, a prominent activist advocating the right to civil marriage. Meanwhile, the Civil Authority for Freedom of Choice intends to sue Susan al-Khoury, the director-general of the Directorate of Personal Status, for obstructing marriage contracts, as well as causing moral and material damages against the persons involved.
The group called for a rally at 10.30 am on Wednesday in Riad al-Solh Square, which coincides with the holding of the cabinet meeting, to object to the resumption of discussions over the legitimacy of civil marriage in Lebanon.
Machnouk, a few weeks ago, recommended [2] that citizens wishing to have a civil marriage go to Cyprus since it is “not far.” On Monday, he said that these citizens should refer to civil courts, which are eligible to consider the legality of these contracts. Today, at the cabinet meeting, Machnouk said that he will propose the issue of conducting civil marriage in Lebanon and registering contracts at the Lebanese Ministry of Interior to take the appropriate action. We cannot predict where Machnouk will soon be sending “civilians,” who he believes are “breaking the law.”
The interior minister's reluctance to sign civil marriage contracts made on Lebanese soil is a blatant violation of basic human rights, because the minister is denying citizens with no confessional affiliation the right to marry. Notary Joseph Bishara explains that “citizens who have crossed out their confessions from civil registry records can only get married through a civil marriage, because their communities deny them the right to have a religious marriage. Thus, the reluctance to approve the registration of civil marriage contracts is tantamount to stripping them of their right to marriage, which is a serious precedent that deprives citizens of a given right.”
The second violation of civil rights, and the very role of state institutions, is manifested in Lebanese officials disregard for acquired rights and their results, thus for citizens and their lives.
“Is it a game? We grant a right and later withdraw it?” says former Interior Minister Ziad Baroud. Baroud explains that “the registration of civil marriage contracts resulted in acquired rights. Families were built and had children after being granted the right to have a civil marriage. This means that these procedures cannot be annulled, as they affect the lives and future of the people involved. The registration of a marriage contract is an administrative measure; it does not grant the right to civil marriage, but enshrines and declares it to regulate its results.”

The interior minister's reluctance to sign civil marriage contracts made on Lebanese soil is a blatant violation of basic human rightsLegal scholar Talal al-Husseini says that “the ministry does not belong to a party, person, or sect, thus the minister is not entitled to annul the procedures, refrain from implementing them, or reconsider the validity of contracts.” Husseini notes that “the minister is only authorized to consider legal aspects of the contract, in case of the emergence of legal arguments or a financial situation, which has not happened.”Machnouk’s statement relies on three legal arguments: First, civil marriage contracts conducted by a notary cannot be registered in the absence of a civil legal text governing civil marriage provisions. Second, Provision 60 l.r. allows for the formation of sects in accordance with ordinary [civil] rights if they obtain recognition, and a sect must present its internal system to the government, which has yet to happen.”
The third and most notable “edict” by Mashnouk is that couples with civil marriage contracts should refer to civil courts, which are authorized to consider the legality of contracts, issue the necessary court decisions, and transfer them to the Directorate of Personal Status to take the necessary legal action.
Former Interior Minister Marwan Charbel insists that Machnouk is not entitled to call for reconsidering registered contracts or questioning their legality. “The minister should explain to us how he approves the registration of a civil marriage in Cyprus and rejects the same contract in Lebanon, although the same methods were adopted in this regard,” he says.
Mashnouk’s arguments are inconsistent with the decisions of the Supreme Consultations Commission at the Ministry of Justice, which stated its view that “Lebanese citizens who do not belong to a certain sect have the right to hold civil marriage in Lebanon.”
Bishara notes that the absence of a civil law — according to Machnouk’s argument — does not deprive citizens of this right. If this right is not regulated under the law, we turn to general laws and international conventions. The commission has resolved the controversy, by allowing couples to choose the civil law they want. Concerning the second argument, Baroud asserts that Article 14 of Provision 60 l.r. stipulates that “sects under the ordinary law organize and conduct their affairs freely within the bounds of civil law,” and do not need a license to form. The recognition of a sect — referred to by Machnouk — is optional, and aims to regulate real estate, property, and place of burial. Baroud criticizes the discrimination between Lebanese citizens who have the same legal status, which violates the principle of equality, and thus allows the appeal of any decision by the administration to disapprove the registration of a civil marriage.
Machnouk is concerned about citizens who have crossed out their confessional identities from official records: how will they vote, or get employed, run for office, or even receive burial? The minister does not want to read the law, but Baroud assures him: The decision concerning the removal of confessional identities from civil records was issued in February 2009, and the elections were held in June 2009, in which more than 281 citizens who had crossed out their sects, took part. In April 2009, the Supreme Consultations Commission also announced its view that citizens with no confessional affiliation are entitled to run for any seat in the elections.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Human rights is not a term that exists in the Lebanese dictionary unfortunately.
BTW, among those who support civil marriage, who would be OK to grant the right to Lebanese women to pass their citizenship to their children?
Even Iraq grants such a right to its women citizens (in the Constitution), and we are supposedly the most "enlightened" people of the Arab world...
 

CitizenOfTheRepublic

Legendary Member
Human rights is not a term that exists in the Lebanese dictionary unfortunately. BTW, among those who support civil marriage, who would be OK to grant the right to Lebanese women to pass their citizenship to their children? Even Iraq grants such a right to its women citizens (in the Constitution), and we are supposedly the most "enlightened" people of the Arab world...
Me. This particular law is yet another disgrace.
 

CitizenOfTheRepublic

Legendary Member
Well, when the Parliament is divided based on sects, civil marriage won't remove sectarianism. Also, the nousous can't do much when there is no change in the noufous.
I didn't say it was the step to remove sectarianism I said it was a necessary step. I could even argue that it is a necessary step to get to remove that parliament split. One of the main reasons the parliament is divided like that is because the sects are afraid the other sects will swallow their rights. By providing the minority who wants a civil marriage their right in spite of them not being remotely close to the majority can be a reassurance of some of their fears.
 

Dalzi

Legendary Member
See the one carrying: Religious marriage = uncivil marriage? Yeah well she's a narrowminded []. She has to accept and respect other people's choices if she wants them to do the same, but it sounds more like a war on religion than a right to choose for narrowminded selfproclaimed progressives who have the mentality of cavemen.
 
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Rising Phoenix

Well-Known Member
1. I don't get it...people keep bashing the lebanese government for being corrupt and incompetent and now they trust it for managing their marriage ?! I think there are other priorities before reaching a point where we can trust the government for dealing with such issues...
2. Optional civil marriage don't bother me as much as the diktat of minorities which could be very dangerous
 

JB81

Legendary Member
rifi said he wont vote for it at all at all at all

the reality all muslims are against it in lebanon and the christian clergy ( BUT NOT THE CHRISTIAN POLITICIAN)

it wont pass

as I keep saying

muslim societies are regress.......

Oh I thought FM is a liberal party lol

Mashnouq opened this subject for one reason. Steal port Beirut while keep the Lebanese busy debating between supporting or opposing the Civil Marriage!

Instead of speaking about the port theft situation, Lebanese are busy talking about a subject that even my grandkids won't see it.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Oh I thought FM is a liberal party lol

Mashnouq opened this subject for one reason. Steal port Beirut while keep the Lebanese busy debating between supporting or opposing the Civil Marriage!

Instead of speaking about the port theft situation, Lebanese are busy talking about a subject that even my grandkids won't see it.

Even when discussing stuff like civil marriage, Lebanese will get divided on sectarian lines.
Same if we discuss granting Lebanese women the right to pass citizenship to their children, lowering the voting age to 18, expats voting, granting citizenship to more expats, etc...
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Even when discussing stuff like civil marriage, Lebanese will get divided on sectarian lines.
Same if we discuss granting Lebanese women the right to pass citizenship to their children, lowering the voting age to 18, expats voting, granting citizenship to more expats, etc...

Let's put it this way:
Civil Marriage: the only secular ideology... Christians are pro.. Muslims are Con...
Lebanese women granting their kids citizenship ... primary cause: anti-Palestinian or pro( right to return ).
Lowering the voting age to 18: pro muslim.
Granting citizenship and expats the right to vote: pro christian.

Lebanon lacks a national identity! Unfortunately, Lebanese are Saudi-Iranian-westerners... makhlouta
 

Dalzi

Legendary Member
Let's put it this way:
Civil Marriage: the only secular ideology... Christians are pro.. Muslims are Con...
Lebanese women granting their kids citizenship ... primary cause: anti-Palestinian or pro( right to return ).
Lowering the voting age to 18: pro muslim.
Granting citizenship and expats the right to vote: pro christian.

Lebanon lacks a national identity! Unfortunately, Lebanese are Saudi-Iranian-westerners... makhlouta
Shou khass KSA Iran and the west with these issues? Kell tayfe deyra 3a masla7eta.

Look:
1- Civil marriage: Christians pro because their religious marriage rules are tough; Muslims against because for a Muslim a marriage that isn't Islamic is not accepted by God. Muslims are always against anything that weakens their religion, marriage being considered '1/2 ldeen', bijenno eza btde2 fiya!
2- Lowering the voting age to 18: Muslims with because they have more of that age group than others.
3- Lebanese women granting citizenships to their children: Pro byektaro l'Sunnah, against dakheelak bala ma nkaterron lol
4- Granting citizenship and expacts the right to vote: Christians pro because of their numbers outside, Muslims against because of the former and the civil war affected political mentality of expacts.

My interests. That's all there's to it.
 

CitizenOfTheRepublic

Legendary Member
Shou khass KSA Iran and the west with these issues? Kell tayfe deyra 3a masla7eta.

Look: ;
1- Civil marriage: Christians pro because their religious marriage rules are tough; Muslims against because for a Muslim a marriage that isn't Islamic is not accepted by God. Muslims are always against anything that weakens their religion, marriage being considered '1/2 ldeen', bijenno eza btde2 fiya!
2- Lowering the voting age to 18: Muslims with because they have more of that age group than others.
3- Lebanese women granting citizenships to their children: Pro byektaro l'Sunnah, against dakheelak bala ma nkaterron lol
4- Granting citizenship and expacts the right to vote: Christians pro because of their numbers outside, Muslims against because of the former and the civil war affected political mentality of expacts.

My interests. That's all there's to it.
I long for the day when issues and laws are based on principles and justice not narrow shortsighted tribal interests:
1- Civil marriage: because all citizens are equal and therefore have the right put their affairs in order as they choose.
1bis - Civil marriage: because it is not the job of the Lebanese state to promote or enforce any religion on anyone (3a assess la ikrah fil deen?)
2- Lowering the voting age to 18: because if those f***ers are deemed wise enough to drive and drink they are for sure wise enough to vote. If you ask me, some of these 18 year olds are more fit to vote than some 60 year old that I know.
3- Lebanese women granting citizenship to their children: because again all citizens should be treated equally, and also because the mother in the wide majority of cases has much more influence on kids than the husband.
4- Granting citizenship and expats the right to vote: because it is the right of every citizen to vote and the duty of the state to facilitate it to all. Was the constitutional court less of a dekkeneh, this would not even be an issue.
 

jugle

New Member
Does anyone have any idea the laws governed in a civil marriage :
- how is a divorce handled ?
- Is there a dowry (before and after), a prenuptial agreement, will there be Alimony ?
- Will the government be liable for a single parent in case of divorce ?
- who has the right over the kids if any ?
- what religion will they be registered as (Especially that in Lebanon, it is mentioned in every document) ?

I would really like to know if those issues have been addressed amond many other ones.
 

Rock

Well-Known Member
I long for the day when issues and laws are based on principles and justice not narrow shortsighted tribal interests:
1- Civil marriage: because all citizens are equal and therefore have the right put their affairs in order as they choose.
1bis - Civil marriage: because it is not the job of the Lebanese state to promote or enforce any religion on anyone (3a assess la ikrah fil deen?)
2- Lowering the voting age to 18: because if those f***ers are deemed wise enough to drive and drink they are for sure wise enough to vote. If you ask me, some of these 18 year olds are more fit to vote than some 60 year old that I know.
3- Lebanese women granting citizenship to their children: because again all citizens should be treated equally, and also because the mother in the wide majority of cases has much more influence on kids than the husband.
4- Granting citizenship and expats the right to vote: because it is the right of every citizen to vote and the duty of the state to facilitate it to all. Was the constitutional court less of a dekkeneh, this would not even be an issue.

1- proposing an optional civil marriage is not the solution
the married couple will be marginalized by the rest of the society, they will be admired by the few liberals, but hated by all the rest of the lebanese
they, and there children will face uncountable problems in every aspect of their lives, education, hospitalisation, and even getting burried
I accept of course the optional solution and will vote for it of it was the only proposed amendment.... but i want a stable solution for all the lebanese:
Obligatory civil marriage, for everyone, so they are all equal in front of the same laws, secular laws, based on human rights, and independent of race, gender, religion... applicable to all adults, and only adults (-18 cant get married, even with the consent of the entire tribe, neighbors, parliament, united nations)

2- 18 is not enough, why cant 16 year olds vote? 14, 12...? i am for a right to vote for every born lebanese
of course we can accept the parents vote for illetrate children (-7)
and when they can vote by themselves, we could let them participate with their family
PS: if the parents dont agree on who they vote, its their problem to teach their children on the true meaning of democracy, and difference of opinion, even in the same family

3- yes of course, what a silly excuse they use to prevent that!

4- same as above
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Since hanna is smallah such a progressive (unlike these barbarian Muslims), let's see if he supports granting Lebanese women the right to pass their citizenship to their children...
 
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