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LGBT Rights in Lebanon

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter

Salome

Active Member
at the office can't watch videos...so it would be great if you sum up the message or just state in what context you would like to discuss LGBT rights

between we have many projects dealing with related issues, not to mention how many of my colleagues are gay and lesbians....am all for their freedom but with some constraint which makes me obviously not that committed...no wonder why am looking for another job:D
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
While one documentary focuses on homosexuality among Christians, the other focuses on homosexuality among Muslims, but the similarities are striking. Both documentaries show how religion is being used to discriminate against LGBT people, but they also show their humanity.

People, especially those prejudiced against homosexuals, should watch these documentaries. You can discuss the subject in the context that you want, and post other documentaries or articles if you wish.
 

Salome

Active Member
The video is quite interesting but also very long...so am not sure if you would want to focus on anything specific?

I would surely make a distinction between homosexuals/lesbians and transgenders. Transgeders are of course very easy to spot and in the past few years they appear ever bold in public wearing attires and heavy make up which draws a lot of attention...I wish they would constrain their presence in such outfit to gay and transgender bars
While the origins of homosexuality is still debated I wonder what is the matter with transgenders? They seem a bit mentally confused and am not sure whether they could ever integrate into an everyday society

Concerning homosexuals and lesbians, I could never support their right for children since their influence on the child's sexual orientation is questionable...and I wouldn't compare it to the cases of those conservative sothern families ending up with a gay child, at least that child had all the opportunity and environment to not to turn into gay

Maybe science shall look further into this matter and discover what is responsible in the genes/brain for becoming lesbian/gay
 

Dalzi

Legendary Member
There's already a thread on gays and lesbians wal hamdulillah lol

I'm in the middle of something so I can't tune myself to the documentaries now, later insha2allah.

What's the point of bringing religion and God into this? Please don't tell me "He loves you" when you're homosexulizing your system :biggrin:
 

الحج موكي

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Concerning homosexuals and lesbians, I could never support their right for children since their influence on the child's sexual orientation is questionable...and I wouldn't compare it to the cases of those conservative sothern families ending up with a gay child, at least that child had all the opportunity and environment to not to turn into gay

The Last Word - Iowa teen defends his gay mothers

This video should address your concerns about the influence of the sexual orientation of the parents on their children. The engineering student speaking in the video is very brave and I admire his testimony. It is sad that the Iowan HR did not pass the resolution.

Homosexuality is not a taboo. It is a choice people make. People are different, they are not programmed robots. Such prejudice towards homosexual couples and the notion of considering them as outliers of the "perfect" society is obnoxious.

I wonder if those who are so prejudice against homosexuals ever reversed the situation, them being an outcast and homosexuals a majority and the accepted social norm; would they agree to and accept the discrimination of the system towards them? Have we, as heterosexuals, ever been questioned on why we are heterosexuals or told that we can't do this, or can't do that, because of our sexual orientation?

I am for full LGBT rights. They are humans, like me, and should not be subjected to discrimination and life as second class citizens. I would gladly cast a ballot legalizing gay marriage.
 

Salome

Active Member
The Last Word - Iowa teen defends his gay mothers

This video should address your concerns about the influence of the sexual orientation of the parents on their children. The engineering student speaking in the video is very brave and I admire his testimony. It is sad that the Iowan HR did not pass the resolution.

Homosexuality is not a taboo. It is a choice people make. People are different, they are not programmed robots. Such prejudice towards homosexual couples and the notion of considering them as outliers of the "perfect" society is obnoxious.

I wonder if those who are so prejudice against homosexuals ever reversed the situation, them being an outcast and homosexuals a majority and the accepted social norm; would they agree to and accept the discrimination of the system towards them? Have we, as heterosexuals, ever been questioned on why we are heterosexuals or told that we can't do this, or can't do that, because of our sexual orientation?

I am for full LGBT rights. They are humans, like me, and should not be subjected to discrimination and life as second class citizens. I would gladly cast a ballot legalizing gay marriage.


Seriously you want me to draw a generally true conclusion from a feedback of one person?
What do you mean by it is a choice people make?? Do you mean homosexuality is a choice? That would support my argument against them having children all the better.

Do you also support transgenders having children? You really think their lifestyle will have 0 effect on the child's orientation?

If you use this tricky argument that but they are also humans well of course they are, just as the mentally retarted people are humans as well should they have children too?? Should a junky have children as well? They are also human, however different.
 

encrier

Member
Seriously you want me to draw a generally true conclusion from a feedback of one person?
What do you mean by it is a choice people make?? Do you mean homosexuality is a choice? That would support my argument against them having children all the better.

Do you also support transgenders having children? You really think their lifestyle will have 0 effect on the child's orientation?

If you use this tricky argument that but they are also humans well of course they are, just as the mentally retarted people are humans as well should they have children too?? Should a junky have children as well? They are also human, however different.


Just my 2 cents...

cent 1 : The majority of traumatized kids (sexually or not) in the world have heterosexual parents. Heterosexuality gives absolutely no extra garantee.
cent 2 : We need to wake up : homoparents EXIST (and they are plenty), their kids have been closely observed and they are perfectly like the rest of kids (and the kids can be homo or not, depend... the only "negative" thing is went the kids point out at them as "he's so moron he doesn't even have a dad/mom". And that is usually a tresor inherited from heterosexual parents.


There was a time when I was against Homoparentality (and further literally homophobe).
I'm glad I'm no longer there !!
 

الحج موكي

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Seriously you want me to draw a generally true conclusion from a feedback of one person?
What do you mean by it is a choice people make?? Do you mean homosexuality is a choice? That would support my argument against them having children all the better.

Do you also support transgenders having children? You really think their lifestyle will have 0 effect on the child's orientation?

It is not just the testimony of one person, it is the unjustifiable fear that homosexual parents are a bad influence on children whereas there is no evidence to suggest this. In fact, there are studies (1,2) that show that children raised by homosexual parents show more empathy for social diversity, are less confined by gender stereotypes, and are more likely to reject society's "rigid" sexual orientation.

The way you're approaching the matter is through the lenses of homosexuality being a taboo. For me, it's different. I don't care about a person's sexual orientation, because it's none of my business; in fact, it should be no one's business. It's a personal matter! Some people just like to stick their noses because they hold themselves in high divinity compared to others, mostly because they wear cute suits to make them feel important.. But I digress.

Homosexuality is a choice, yes. How does this support your claim? The fact they prefer same-sex relationships does not mean they do not prefer children or family.

Why shouldn't trans-gendered people be allowed to adopt children?
Are you afraid that their parents might abuse them sexually? Last time I checked, most registered sex offenders are heterosexual and "normal." Sexual abuse, pedophilia, and rape are not strictly concerned with one class of people. Contrary to popular belief, these three criteria are more common in heterosexual men rather than homosexual ones.

If you use this tricky argument that but they are also humans well of course they are, just as the mentally retarted people are humans as well should they have children too?? Should a junky have children as well? They are also human, however different.

Mentally challenged individuals and junkies are different than homosexuals. Your argument is a concrete example of a red herring.

Mentally challenged individuals don't choose to be mentally challenged; they are diagnosed with an illness, making them less able to have children. Homosexuals, on the other hand, are perfectly healthy - just like their fellow heterosexuals. Note that some people who are diagnosed with psychological disorders have kids prior to their diagnosis.

Junkies are already allowed to have children, so I am not sure about the point you're getting to. The morality of this debate is subjective, therefore it is not applicable in this case.
 

dyyyy

Well-Known Member
It is not just the testimony of one person, it is the unjustifiable fear that homosexual parents are a bad influence on children whereas there is no evidence to suggest this.

It DOES need an evidence to prove the contrary, we're talking about someone else's child , and we're taking advantage that there is noone to defend his rights.
like every thing related to health and medical issues, you need to prove 100% that it doesn't affect negatively the child with formal studies and not some loose conclusions made on observing generally children. if my child went to live in such an environment, that's what i would do, and i would expect the same for other children
 

Salome

Active Member
It is not just the testimony of one person, it is the unjustifiable fear that homosexual parents are a bad influence on children whereas there is no evidence to suggest this. In fact, there are studies (1,2) that show that children raised by homosexual parents show more empathy for social diversity, are less confined by gender stereotypes, and are more likely to reject society's "rigid" sexual orientation.


Am not sure it is wise enough to claim already that it is perfectly healthy for a child's (mental) development to live in a homosexual environment...what is backing this up? Decades long observations and in-depth studies?? I doubt that...
Obviously a child raised by homosexuals would become gender-sensitive, less discriminative, more receptive toward the a-normalities etc...but how that would shape the child's behaviour/personality and orientation is really questionable.

That's why I said if you think homosexuality is a choice then it is something they can control, a lifestyle they chose therefore they have no right to impose this lifestyle/environment on a child.


The way you're approaching the matter is through the lenses of homosexuality being a taboo.

Nope, for me it is no taboo, did you miss that part that I work with homosexuals? Over here their right for marriage is already legalised so it is anything but a taboo environment


For me, it's different. I don't care about a person's sexual orientation, because it's none of my business; in fact, it should be no one's business. It's a personal matter!

Indeed ideally it should be so....but their freedom and my non-business stops the moment they want to shape the society to their own face thus affect me, others, future generations...it becomes everybody's business


Homosexuality is a choice, yes. How does this support your claim?

If it is a choice and not genetics then it's all the worse, since it is not their human nature it is their acquired free choice...they are NOT free to impose it on anybody
However I doubt the real origins/causes of homosexuality is discovered.


Why shouldn't trans-gendered people be allowed to adopt children?

I could just post a photo of a transgender for you as an answer. What kind of image, what kind of confused idea a transgender can give to a child?? Transgenders are not equals to homosexuals...they clearly have some mental issues


Are you afraid that their parents might abuse them sexually? Last time I checked, most registered sex offenders are heterosexual and "normal." Sexual abuse, pedophilia, and rape are not strictly concerned with one class of people. Contrary to popular belief, these three criteria are more common in heterosexual men rather than homosexual ones.

nope this is not the issue, but how their lifestyle affect the child's orientation

Mentally challenged individuals and junkies are different than homosexuals. Your argument is a concrete example of a red herring.

mentally challenged: yes if homosexuality is a free choice, no if it is genetic
junkies: nobody is born as a junky right? so if homosexuality is a free choice then the comparison stands since both are lifestyles different than the norm, and questionable for a child's development
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
It DOES need an evidence to prove the contrary, we're talking about someone else's child , and we're taking advantage that there is noone to defend his rights.
like every thing related to health and medical issues, you need to prove 100% that it doesn't affect negatively the child with formal studies and not some loose conclusions made on observing generally children. if my child went to live in such an environment, that's what i would do, and i would expect the same for other children

Why do you assume that heterosexual adoptive parents are less risky? There have been enough abuse cases involving them to make anyone think twice about adoption. There are also adoptive children who, once grown up, hold a stance against adoption even though they haven’t been abused and have positive relationships with their adoptive parents. Did anyone ever think of how a child might feel being uprooted from Asia and sent to America for example?

It’s ok for a child to be raised by strangers from another culture, but it’s not ok for parents of the same culture as the child to raise them because they’re homosexual?

Homosexuality is not a choice. You are born that way. A heterosexual child raised by homosexual parents will not magically turn gay.
 

dyyyy

Well-Known Member
Why do you assume that heterosexual adoptive parents are less risky? There have been enough abuse cases involving them to make anyone think twice about adoption. There are also adoptive children who, once grown up, hold a stance against adoption even though they haven’t been abused and have positive relationships with their adoptive parents. Did anyone ever think of how a child might feel being uprooted from Asia and sent to America for example?

You're right, and you normally don't give risky parents children to adopt, that's why there are long procedures to adopt a child

Homosexuality is not a choice. You are born that way. A heterosexual child raised by homosexual parents will not magically turn gay

Most homosexuals don't get born gays, they become so in their childhood, and there are many factors that intice children to be gay
 

الحج موكي

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
It DOES need an evidence to prove the contrary, we're talking about someone else's child , and we're taking advantage that there is noone to defend his rights.
like every thing related to health and medical issues, you need to prove 100% that it doesn't affect negatively the child with formal studies and not some loose conclusions made on observing generally children. if my child went to live in such an environment, that's what i would do, and i would expect the same for other children

Bad influence on children is not strictly entitled into one class of people; heterosexuals can also have a bad influence, and there's a lot of examples. I'm arguing against sidelining one group of people, when the other could be just as bad.

It might be someone else's child, but that child is either unwanted (hence why s/he is at an orphanage/foster home unless the biological parents are dead), or conceived through an anonymous sperm donor.. i.e. its actually father is unknown and therefore that father probably doesn't even know he has a child.

I don't believe it's a medical issue, at least not for the most part; it's about equality for me.
 

الحج موكي

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Am not sure it is wise enough to claim already that it is perfectly healthy for a child's (mental) development to live in a homosexual environment...what is backing this up? Decades long observations and in-depth studies?? I doubt that...
Obviously a child raised by homosexuals would become gender-sensitive, less discriminative, more receptive toward the a-normalities etc...but how that would shape the child's behaviour/personality and orientation is really questionable.

Don't you think that this depends on the parents? Sexual orientation has nothing to do with a child's personality.
Have you ever considered your parents sexual orientation as you were growing up?

A child could have parents who are alcoholics and drug addicts, yet are heterosexual, and grow up to be abnormal (in terms of personality etc.).

That's why I said if you think homosexuality is a choice then it is something they can control, a lifestyle they chose therefore they have no right to impose this lifestyle/environment on a child.

Well, it is still debated whether homosexuality is genetic (nature) or by choice (nurture). I am leaning more towards nurture because sexuality is something individuals learn and experience as part of growing up. Besides, the genetic theory doesn't make any sense, biologically speaking. If a homosexual who is born to two heterosexual parents, who were born to two heterosexuals themselves, then how would he be genetically homosexual?

Parents always impose their beliefs on their children; religious and political beliefs are almost always forced. For example, I was born a Christian and a supporter of the Christian right-wing in Lebanon (that is until I was about 13-14). Now I am an atheist and a libertarian socialist (left), and I don't really support any party in Lebanon.

The point I am trying to illustrate is that personality is not influenced by the sexual orientation of the parents. Frankly, a child is too young to comprehend the concepts of homosexuality and heterosexuality, and by the time the child is old enough he'd already be going to school where he learns the "accepted" social norms, therefore the sexual orientation of the parents would not matter at that point.

When you say the parents have no right to force the homosexual environment on their child, why not? If this logic was to be applied, then it has to be applied on heterosexual couples also, who are in turn forcing an environment on their children that the children have not chosen for themselves.

Nope, for me it is no taboo, did you miss that part that I work with homosexuals? Over here their right for marriage is already legalised so it is anything but a taboo environment

Good to know; where do you live?

Indeed ideally it should be so....but their freedom and my non-business stops the moment they want to shape the society to their own face thus affect me, others, future generations...it becomes everybody's business

I think your got the concept wrong. It is heterosexuals who are forcing their norms on homosexuals. Homosexuals just want normal rights, to be able to marry and live in dignity (aka out in the open).. They don't want to be second class citizens.

Their movement is a civil rights movement, similar to the women's movement that brought the rights for women to vote and hold office, workers' movement that set a minimum wage and eliminated discrimination by employers, civil rights movement that gave blacks and immigrants their rights. Note: I'm speaking about the U.S.

They just want equality. They aren't trying to make the whole world homosexual.. It's not like homosexuality is contagious (and believe me, I've heard this argument from an ultra-religious person that homosexuality is a disease and it is contagious).

If it is a choice and not genetics then it's all the worse, since it is not their human nature it is their acquired free choice...they are NOT free to impose it on anybody
However I doubt the real origins/causes of homosexuality is discovered.

I answered this above, and I agree.. Origins of homosexuality are not certain, but there are theories.

I could just post a photo of a transgender for you as an answer. What kind of image, what kind of confused idea a transgender can give to a child?? Transgenders are not equals to homosexuals...they clearly have some mental issues

Trans-gendered individuals have personality traits different than the regular male/female genders. They are male or female based on their sexual organs, but they think differently. What's wrong with that? It's not mental issues.

I'm not expert on this and I honestly have not studied it as much as I have with homosexuality, but from a moral standpoint I'd choose equality. I stand by my claim that the environment of a child influences the way they think.. i.e. their home (imo it's a minor part), school, society, work etc.

nope this is not the issue, but how their lifestyle affect the child's orientation

A child would be more influenced by other children rather than the parents... During the first years, the child would be too young to understand what his parents are doing and they just imitate, but those imitations are part of the growing process and are soon replaced by what a child learns and sees at school.

mentally challenged: yes if homosexuality is a free choice, no if it is genetic
junkies: nobody is born as a junky right? so if homosexuality is a free choice then the comparison stands since both are lifestyles different than the norm, and questionable for a child's development

Personally, I'm not really fond of the current social norms; they provide a lot of limitations and I'm against the idea of setting limits. Therefore, I like to address this debate from a different standpoint, from equality vs. inequality. Mentally challenged and junkies rarely ever are in their sane mind to consider adopting a child or conceiving one of their own, and social services have a set standard on when to interfere if it was accidentally prompted and is effecting the child negatively. Homosexuality, on the other hand, does not have this "negative" effect because it depends on the parents as I mentioned before. Parents could be good or bad no matter what their sexual orientation is.
 

J_Raad1450

Well-Known Member
قرعٌ على أبواب "المثلية الجنسية"...

19 آذار 2011 بولا أسطيح - "خاص النشرة"


هذه الورقة التي كتب عليها كلمة "حلم" باللغة الأجنبية وبخط اليد والتي ألصقت على أحد الجدران في منطقة سبيرز كفيلة بوصف الوضع العام الذي يعيشه المثليون جنسيا في لبنان. أعداد كبيرة قد تتخطى التوقعات تعيش في الظل مختبئة من مجتمع يرجمها بأول حجر قد تطاله يده. لكن هؤلاء ومتى قرروا أن يتحدثوا ويعلنوا عن مثليتهم فعندها لا تحد طموحاتهم خطوط حمر فهم وكما يعّرفهم القانون اللبناني ولو بالتلميح "خارجون عن الطبيعة".
من "حلم" انطلقنا الى داخل هذا الكيان المثلي، فهي أول جمعية في الوطن العربي تعنى بشؤون "المثليين جنسيا"، تحميهم وتدافع عن حقوقهم منذ العام 2005، تاريخ تقدم القيمين عليها بطلب الى وزارة الداخلية لانشاء جمعية. "الدولة اللبنانية على علم رسمي بوجودنا وأهدافنا، هي لم تعطنا الشرعية بعد لأن الوزارة لم تمنحنا رقما للجمعية ولكنّها تقبلت وجودنا من دون أن تخدش بعض مشاعر المؤسسات الدينية بالاقرار بحالتنا رسميا"، هذا ما تقره رئيسة الجمعية هبة عبّاني التي تكشف أن الهدف الأول والرئيسي للجمعية الغاء المادة 534 من القانون اللبناني والتي تنص على أن "كل مجامعة على خلاف الطبيعة يعاقب عليها بالحبس حتى سنة واحدة". وتقول: "من الذي يحدد أن العلاقة بين رجلين أو امراتين هي مجامعة خارج اطار الطبيعة؟ اذا أرادوا فليبقوا على المادة ولكن لا يطبقوها علينا".

يصل عدد المستفيدين من خدمات "حلم" شهريا للـ300
ويشرح أحد أعضاء الهيئة الادارية في "حلم" انطوني، الخدمات التي تقدمها حلم ويقول: "هناك أكثر من وحدة فاعلة في حلم، الأولى تهتم بالشؤون الصحية للمثليين فتبث المعلومات الصحية وتنظم حملات لاجراء فحوصات للسيدا مجاناً وبشكل سري كما تتابع بعض الحالات التي تتعرض لتمييز في بعض المستشفيات التي ترفض استقبال المثليين. الوحدة الثانية هي خاصة بالاعلام، تتابع وعن كثب ما يكتب عن المثلية وتحاول بناء علاقات جيدة مع الجسم الاعلامي الكفيل بالاضاءة على حقيقة الحالة المثلية". ويلفت أنطوني إلى أنّ "هناك خطا ساخنا تؤمنه الجمعية 24 ساعة يوميا للاجابة على الأسئلة القانونية والصحية كما تحاول ومن خلال هذا الخط تقديم مساعدة نفسية ومعنوية لمن يحتاجها". ولا تتردد الجمعية في محاولة تأمين عمل لمن استعيض عن خدماتهم عند انكشاف هويتهم الجنسية، وفق أنطوني.
"نحن 45 عضوا حاليا في الجمعية هذا عدد المنتسبين رسميا أما عدد المستفيدين فكبير جدا. نحن نستقبل في الشهر الواحد أكثر من 200 الى 300 مستفيد وهذه النسبة ترتفع خلال فصل الصيف"، وتقول هبة عبّاني: "هناك أعضاء عرب منتسبون للجمعية ولكن مقيمون في لبنان أما المستفيدون العرب فكثر وخاصة في الصيف".

المثلية في طرابلس...
وتكشف رئيسة الجمعية انّهم تعرضوا للكثير المضايقات من قبل الأجهزة الامنية لكن "وبعد حلقات نقاش طويلة مع المسؤولين عن الاجهزة تمكنا من إقناعهم أننا حالة موجودة مستحيل القضاء عليها". ولا تلمس عبّاني تطورا كبيرا في نظرة المجتمع اللبناني إلى المثليين وتعتبر أن المثلي المستقل ماديا هو الذي يعيش حياة طبيعية أما المثلي المحتاج فهو من يواجه الصعوبات الكبرى وتضيف: "ما يتعرض له المثليون في طرابلس هو الأصعب حاليا. فالأعداد أصبحت كبيرة هناك والأجهزة الأمنية في الشمال غير متعاونة" وتضيف: "يتم إخضاع الشخص المشتبه بأنّه مثلي من قبل رجال الأمن لفحص شرجي يشكل انتهاكا صارخا لحقوق الانسان وهو أقرب الى اغتصاب طبي منه إلى أي شيء آخر علما أنّه لا يثبت هوية الفرد الجنسية".

علم النفس العيادي: المثلية ليست وراثية أو خلقية
وتؤكد المتخصصة في علم النفس العيادي الدكتورة باسكال مراد أن "المثلية ليست وراثية أو خلقية" شارحة أن "أكثر من دراسة تجزم بذلك و بأن أكثر من عامل اجتماعي يجعل من الانسان مثلياً". وتقول: "الاغتصاب الجنسي في الصغر أحد الأسباب الاساسية لتحول الانسان إلى مثلي كما أن للتربية المنزلية دورا أساسيا فأحيانا وفي اللاوعي قد تشعر الوالدة ابنها برغبتها التي لم تفصح عنها بأن يكون لها بنت ما يؤثر جذريا في الهوية الجنسية لابنها".
وتلفت مراد إلى أن نوع التربية الأخلاقية التي يتلقاها الاطفال والمراهقون لها دور اساسي في "الشذوذ الجنسي" وتقول: "عادة يكتشف المرء هويته الجنسية في مرحلة المراهقة ولكن هذه الهوية قد تنقلب ما بين عمر الـ35 والـ40 جراء صدمة معينة أو حادثة نفسية محددة".
وفيما تؤكد مراد أنّه "من الصعب جدا الشفاء من المثلية"، تشير الى أن "المرضى الذين يلجؤون الى عيادتها لا يأتون بهدف الشفاء بل للتعبير عن مشاعرهم وعن المعاناة التي يعيشونها" وتضيف: "ان سرية الجلسة تجذب المثليين جنسيا الذي يأتون ليتحدثوا عن الصفات الحسنة التي فيهم وكم هم مبدعون ومنتجون وجميلو المظهر". وتوضح مراد أن "العدد الاكبر من المثليين هم وبالحقيقة خلاقون ومثقفون ومبدعون وينجحون في المهام الاجتماعية وبكل ما له علاقة بالجمال"...وتتحدث عن علاقة قوية تجمع المثلي بوالدته.

الكنيسة تحترم المثليين وتؤكد أن حالتهم بحد ذاتها ليس خطيئة
أما بما خص وجهة نظر الأديان من ملف "المثلية الجنسية"، فيؤكد المتخصص في اللاهوت الأخلاقي وفي أخلاقيات الحياة العاطفية والزواج والعائلة، الاب جرمانوس جرمانوس، أن "الكنيسة تحترم المثليين وتؤكد أن حالتهم بحد ذاتها ليس خطيئة" ويقول: "الكنيسة لا تتوقف على كيفية الوصول الى الحالة المثلية ولكنها تعترف أن ظروفا نفسية-تربوية-اجتماعية هي الكفيلة بتحول الانسان الى مثلي وتشدد على ضرورة دراسة كل حالة على حدة".
ويوضح الأب جرمانوس أن "الكنيسة تميّز بين الحالة التي يعيشها الانسان وبين تصرفاته" ويقول: "نحن كمسيحيين مدعوون لاحترام الانسان مهما كانت ميوله فالأنسنة أبعد بكثير من الهوية الجنسية اذ تطال الانتاج، طريقة التفكير والمعاملة..." مستنكرا تصوير بعض الاعلام للمثلي كـ"حالة همجية".
ويشرح الاب جرمانوس أن "الخطيئة هي كل ما يبعد الانسان عن الله وبالتالي الكنيسة تضع الانسان أمام ضميره لتحديد اذا كان ما يقترفه خطيئة أم لا" ويقول: "كل علاقة جنسية خارج اطار الزواج أو حتى كل علاقة خلال الزواج تهين أحد طرفي العلاقة هي خطيئة. كما أن العلاقة الجنسية بين شخصين من نفس الجنس هي خطيئة لأن الكنيسة لا تعترف الا بزواج المرأة من رجل".
ويستهجن الاب جرمانوس تدخل القانون اللبناني بحميمية الانسان ويشدد على ان "الكنيسة ضد أي قانون يخل بكرامة الانسان" ويقول: "في حال كان هناك شخصان من نفس الجنس يمارسان الجنس في منزلهما بعيدا عن الشارع فلا دخل للكنيسة ولا للقانون بهما" لافتا الى أن "القانون يُستعمل أحيانا للاخلال بكرامة وحرية الانسان ويتيح المجال لبعض رجال الأمن لاذلال بعض الاشخاص".
ويرى الأب جرمانوس أن "لا خلل بانشاء جمعيات تهتم بهم صحيا واجتماعيا وترشدهم" مؤكدا أن الكنيسة تقوم بدورها في هذا المجال أيضا لأن المثلي كغيره تماما هو ابن الله.

الاسلام لا يعترف بالمثليين ولا يرضى بقيام جمعيات لهم
بدوره، يوضح قاضي الشرع الاسلامي الشيخ محمد نقري أن "الاسلام لا يعترف بالمثليين من الناحية الشرعية كما يعتبر أنّه لا يحق لهم أن يتزوجوا أو يمارسوا الجنس" ويقول: "اذا لم يصدر عن المثلي أي تصرف شاذ أمام المجتمع فنقول عندها أن الله ابتلاه وبالتالي جزاؤه عند رب العالمين أما اذا أقدم على أفعال مشينة فعندها تتدخل الشريعة لتفرض العقاب المناسب".
ويرى الشيخ نقري أن "من الواجب عرض هؤلاء على معالجين نفسيين لأنّهم لا يولدون كذلك بل ان ظروفا معينة تجعل منهم شاذين" ويضيف: "نحن ضد قيام جمعيات للمثليين وبالتالي ضد اعطاء شرعية لمجموعات تقوم بأعمال خارجة عن اطار الطبيعة".

المجتمع اللبناني: هؤلاء مرضى نفسيون ونفضّل عدم التعاطي معهم
ويرفض قسم كبير من اللبنانيين تقبل ظاهرة المثلية الجنسية ويسيطر على القسم الأكبر منهم ما يسمى بـ"رهاب المثلية".
ويقول ر. د (27 عاما): "هؤلاء مرضى نفسيون يجب أن يتعالجوا وأنا شخصيا لا أحبذ أي علاقة معهم من اي نوع كانت لأنني أشمئز منهم وبالتالي أنا ضد أن نلغي المادة 534 من القانون وضد أن تمنح وزارة الداخلية الحق لهؤلاء بانشاء جمعيات لهم".
بدورها تشدد جورجيت ضاهر (40 عاما) على "وجوب عدم ادانة هؤلاء" وتعتبر أنّه يجب دراسة كل حالة على حدة لتبين امكانية معالجتها وتقول: "لا شك أن المثلية حالة شاذة ولكن موجودة وبالتالي لا يجب التعاطي معها وكأنّه يتوجب ابادتها".
وترى جورجيت أن الرجال المثليين هم أفضل أصدقاء للمرأة كما أنّهم مخلصون وفنانون.

مثليون يتحدثون لـ"النشرة": نفخر بما نحن عليه ولننظر الى ما هو أبعد من الهوية الجنسية
بالرغم من أن المثليين في لبنان يسيرون على خطى الغرب وبوتيرة سريعة نسبيا، وخاصة بعد شيوع موضة الـ"coming out" اي الكشف عن الهوية الجنسية باقامة تجمع للأهل والاصحاب، الا أن القسم الأكبر منهم يفضل العيش بأسماء مستعارة وبعيدا عن الاضواء. كفاح الذي التقيناه في مقر جمعية "حلم" يرى باسمه المستعار هذا ملجأ آمنا يحميه وبالتحديد من المصابين برهاب المثلية أو الـ"Homophobia" ويقول: "عندما انضممت الى "حلم" كنت بحاجة ماسة للمساعدة والتحدث الى من هم مثلي لأتشارك معهم همومي واحتياجاتي وقد تخطيت الكثير بفضل الخبرات التي تمكنت من اكتسابها هنا".
ويرى كفاح أن "التطور في المجتمع اللبناني لجهة تقبل المثليين يتم وببطء كبير" ويضيف: "أنا فخور بما أنا عليه وبعد كفاح طويل تم تقبلي في عائلتي ومجتمعي الصغير لأنني نجحت باقناعهم أنّهم لن يتمكنوا من الغائي أو الغاء دوري في المجتمع. وهنا دعوة لكل من لا يتقبلنا للنظر أبعد من الهوية الجنسية الى داخلنا، طريقة تفكيرنا وتعاملنا مع محيطنا".
شربل الناشط في "حلم" والذي يبدو الأكثر ثقة بنفسه بين المتواجدين في الجمعية يشدد على أن "الأهم هو ان يكون الانسان متصالحا مع نفسه عندها سيتمكن من فرض نفسه وحالته على عائلته ومجتمعه" ويقول: "نعاني فيما نعانيه من تمييز يطال كل جوانب حياتنا وكأننا مواطنون درجة ثانية، فبأي حق يتقاضى المثلي جنسيا راتب أقل من غيره وبأي حق يتم التخلي عن خدمات موظف معين بعد اكتشاف هويته الجنسية؟!"
ويعتبر شربل أن "الدولة اللبنانية وبقوانينها وممارساتها تقدم على اغتصاب مواطنيها حين يجري رجال الامن لمن قد يشتبهون أنّه شاذ فحصا طبيا أقل ما يقال عنه أنّه تطاول على كرامات الناس".

معلومات عامة عن "المثلية":
• . بتاريخ 3/12/2009، صدر عن القاضي المنفرد الجزائي في البترون منير سليمان حكم دعا لإخراج العلاقات المثلية الرضائية بين راشدين من دائرة المعاقبة، وذلك في سياق ملاحقة جزائية ضد شابين ادعت عليهما النيابة العامة على أساس المادة 534 عقوبات التي تجرّم "المجامعة خلافاً للطبيعة" حتى سنة حبس لوجودهما في وضع ملتبس. وقد آل الحكم إلى وقف التعقبات في وجه الشابين لأسباب عدة، بعضها واقعي إذ تبين للمحكمة عدم ثبوت الأفعال المعزوة إليهما، وبعضها قانوني ومفادها أن الأفعال المذكورة، على فرض صحتها، لا تخضع لمفهوم "المجامعة خلافاً للطبيعة". وقد اعتبر هذا الحكم سابقة قضائية، قد تكون الأولى من نوعها في الشرق الأوسط، من شأنها أن تمهد لقلب الاجتهاد السائد بشأن المادة 534 المذكورة وأن تأذن بالنتيجة بتحرير شريحة واسعة من المواطنين (المثليين) من هشاشة "الخارجين عن القانون" بسبب ميلهم الجنسي.
• في العام 2010 ذكر تقرير لموقع "ميديا لاين" الأميركي الذي يغطي أخبار الشرق الأوسط ان بيروت بدأت تنافس تل أبيب في كونها موقعاً جاذباً لسياحة المثليين.
• نسبة المثليين 4% على الأقل من التعداد الكلي لسكان العالم أي ما يعادل 240 مليون "مثلي ومثلية" من مجموع 6 مليار إنسان على كوكب الأرض.
• ظاهرة المثلية منتشرة بين الحيوانات، خاصةً الطيور والحيوانات الثدية، مثل الزرافات والقردة وبعض أنواع الضفادع.
• البجع الأسود الأسترالي يبني أحياناً علاقات جنسية مثلية ويسرق العش من الإناث ويلجأ للعلاقات المزدوجة احيانا لهدف أخذ البيض.
• في آذار 2004، تبين أن المثلية في الغنم تشبه والى حد كبير المثلية في الإنسان، كونها متعلقة بمنطقة في الدماغ.

أهداف جمعية "حلم":
• إلغاء المادة ٥٣٤ من قانون العقوبات اللبناني والتي تُستخدم لمعاقبة العلاقات المثليّة وتشجيع ثقافة خرق الحقوق والإفلات من العقاب، وذلك ضمن إطار قانوني يحمي الحياة الشخصية للأفراد ولا يتدخّل فيها.
• وقف التمييز الموجه ضد المثليين/ات والمتحولين/ات في الجامعات وإعادة النظر في الكتب التي تحض على الكراهية.
• الضغط على مقدّمي الخدمات الصحية في القطاع العام والخاص المجاني والربحي على احترام خصوصية جميع المرضى وتحديداً أولئك الذين يعانون من الوصم الاجتماعي (كحاملي فيروس السيدا)، ووضع حدّ للتمييز الموجه ضد المثليين/ات والمتحولين/ات في الخدمات الصحية وجعل هذه الخدمات متوفّرة للجميع وبشكل متساو، بغض النظر عن الجنس والميول الجنسية أو الجنسية أو الوضع الاجتماعي/الاقتصادي.
• إلغاء جميع أشكال التمييز ضد المرأة بما فيه إعطاء المرأة حقّها بتمرير جنسيتها لأولادها، الحد من التحرّش والعنف الموجه ضد النساء في المنازل والشوارع و أماكن العمل، والتوقّف عن استخدام جسد المرأة كسلعة جنسية في الإعلانات والبرامج والثقافة السائدة.
• فصل الدين عن شؤون الدولة والتحكّم بحياة الناس، وإقرار قانون أحوال شخصية مدني بعيداً عن سيطرة رجال الدين وإدخال التربية الجنسية الشاملة في المناهج الدراسية من سن الحادية عشرة، واحترام الحريات الجنسية وحريّة اختيار الشركاء والعلاقات العاطفية.
• رفع الحد الأدنى للأجور لما يساهم في تحسين أوضاع المرأة العاملة وفئات أخرى مهمّشة اقتصادياً، ومساواة أجر المرأة بأجر الرجل في جميع الوظائف والمستويات ومنع التمييز في الدخل على أساس الجنس أو الجنسية أو العرق، الخ.
• تطبيق القانون ٢٢٠ المتعلّق بذوي الحاجات الخاصة وإلغاء التمييز الممأسس ضدهم/ن وتأهيل المدارس والشوارع والمرافق العامة والخاصة بما يتناسب مع جميع الاحتياجات.
• الكف عن التمييز ضد العمال الأجانب وإعطائهم حقوقهم الإنسانية كافة، بما في ذلك وقف ما تتعرّض له عاملات المنازل من عنف واعتداءات جنسية وإعطائهن حقوقهن في التمتّع بإجازة إذا رغبن، كما تجدر الإشارة إلى ضرورة إغلاق سجن الأجانب في العدلية حيث تمارس أشد أنواع التعذيب دون محاكمة بحق من لا يملك جنسية لبنانية.
• عدم تجريم عاملات وعمّال الجنس والسماح لهم/ن بتنظيم أنفسهم/ن وولوجهم/ن الخدمات الصحية والاجتماعية.
• رفع التجريم عن مستخدمي المخدرات وتوفير مراكز لعلاج المدمنين بدل زجهم في السجون.
• وقف التنميط لصورة المرأة والرجل والفئات الاجتماعية المهمشة وتقبل الاختلاف في الشكل والطول والوزن ولون العيون والملابس...
• العمل على وضع سياسات بديلة من أجل حماية البيئ
 

fidelio

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
• ظاهرة المثلية منتشرة بين الحيوانات، خاصةً الطيور والحيوانات الثدية، مثل الزرافات والقردة وبعض أنواع الضفادع.
• البجع الأسود الأسترالي يبني أحياناً علاقات جنسية مثلية ويسرق العش من الإناث ويلجأ للعلاقات المزدوجة احيانا لهدف أخذ البيض.
• في آذار 2004، تبين أن المثلية في الغنم تشبه والى حد كبير المثلية في الإنسان، كونها متعلقة بمنطقة في الدماغ.

What a silly and disgusting argument and i don't think i need to explain any further.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
What a silly and disgusting argument and i don't think i need to explain any further.

If God is against homosexuality, why did He allow it to happen between animals? Isn't homosexuality against God's natural law?
Love is Love, you can't deny people's attraction to one anothers, just because you don't have the same attraction.
 
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