Maronite Patriarch calls for ‘active neutrality’ to unite and save Lebanon

Do you support the Neutrality pact proposed by Patriarch al Rahi ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 69.0%
  • No

    Votes: 9 31.0%

  • Total voters
    29

Goa'uld

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
You cant be 25% governing 75% and taking everything with full executive powers. This is why there was a civil war. If you want to take us back to pre 75, then you are looking forward to another 15 years, more or less of another civil war.



I am for a referendum on peace with Israehell. We can do this once every 10 years, in case the first one fails to accept. I am maximizing the chance for your wish to come true. Let the people decide. I am for a defense strategy and after which the strategy can be placed in front of the people to approve it through another referendum.

Then let the people vote for their president and vice president also. And even for speaker and PM and their deputies. The era whereby a mafia in parliament decide who is president, PM and speaker among themselves, dividing power the way they like it and as it suits them should end. Power should belong to the people and not to the sectarian warlords, who use the people and the sectarian system every four years to extend their mandate forever. This is not democracy. It is either a parliamentary dictatorship or an oligarchy or kleptocracy. It is anything but democratic.
@Rafidi
Everyone knows how Islamists treated minorities in the aftermath of the revolution in Iran. They put their closest allies, the ones who helped depose of the Shah, to death. No one trusts you and no one will hand you total control in Lebanon without a fight.

I have met Christians from all over the middle east. Only Lebanese Christians dare practice their identity freely in public. Won't give that up so easily.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
@Rafidi
Everyone knows how Islamists treated minorities in the aftermath of the revolution in Iran. They put their closest allies, the ones who helped depose of the Shah, to death. No one trusts you and no one will hand you total control in Lebanon without a fight.

I have met Christians from all over the middle east. Only Lebanese Christians dare practice their identity freely in public. Won't give that up so easily.

I think your (last 2) posts are a bit divorced from the reality on ground. I'd be talking on one subject and you are commenting on another entirely different topic. There is no discussion when you are throwing in red herrings, which in themselves are even baseless. You want me to start arguing yournred herrings from angle as if they're related to the subject of discussion and also dispelling them as false.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
@Rafidi
Everyone knows how Islamists treated minorities in the aftermath of the revolution in Iran. They put their closest allies, the ones who helped depose of the Shah, to death. No one trusts you and no one will hand you total control in Lebanon without a fight.

I have met Christians from all over the middle east. Only Lebanese Christians dare practice their identity freely in public. Won't give that up so easily.

Let me indulge you a bit and entertain you.

The subject I was talking about had nothing to do with the Islamist scarecrow taking over or any boogeyman. It has to do with a new regime where people's votes count, and the people have the power to change both the sectarian warlord and the Islamist and throw him out of power. This democratic power does not presently exist in Lebanon and it is the reason why the people are helpless in the face of corrupt warlords, who have sucked the treasury dry and squandered people's deposits in the central bank through the chief accountant of the corrupt ruling class, Mr Salemeh.

As an Israehelli supporter yourself, your problem isn't with Islamists in principle. Your problem is with anyone who dare challenge Israehelli terrorism and occupation. The resistance against Israehell in Lebanon, in the South, did not start with Shia Islamist Hezballah. It started with secular or atheist communists in the South and from all over Lebanon who joined the fight against Israehelli terror and occupation. In the latter part, the resistance took an Islamist outlook because its major backer was an Islamic regime. Had the atheistic and secular liberation fighters remained and grew to become what Hezballah is today, you will still find ways to demonize them and defame them. Nothing shocking here. And you will still find sellouts and rogues at the highest level who are willing tools to blackmail them.

If I am to rant further, the Hezballah phenomenon in Lebanon is an existential reality. In other words it relates directly to the existence of Lebanon, its regime and how power was shared in a racist, apartheid and unfair fashion. Power was one sided until Taef and whatever befell the South was not regarded as of any importance at national or state level. MaMarginalisatio.From marginalization grew a reality that if the state does not care about us, we can care for ourselves and act in ways better than the state itself. Thus, I can never imagine Hezballah handing over its weapons to an army that is by system always headed by a commander from one sect or under a president who is commander in chief of the armed forces and who must always come from one sect. Hezballah is never going to hand over its weapons to such a system or such a commander in chief or to such a regime of corrupt warlords divided along sectarian lines. It isnt going to happen in my estimation. If it happens, it would be like one major sect surrendering to another and accepting defeat. Thus it will never happen. For such to ever happen, the rotten apartheid regime has to change. The people must be the ones to decise if we would make peace with Israehell. No single leader in Lebanon can make such a decision and remain free. Someone will always milk such decision by a single individual. It is only the people who can collectively decide in a referendum. Give power to the people and let people have the power and right to determine what and who they want and be able to change what's not in their interest. We dont have such in Lebanon. People should be able to elect and change their leaders. MPs must have term limits and the people must elect the president and major public servants. This is the reason after months of protests, the same man who resigned is returning as PM and supported by the same parties. They are not accountable to the people and they do as they please whether for the right or wrong reasons.

And this has nothing to do with diminishing the role of Christians or their place in power. Power can still be shared in a rational and fair way, whereby both Christians and Muslims remain equally represented. For example, people can vote for a Christian president and a Muslim vice for a single six years term. And if the same pair want another six years and be reelected, we can have the Muslim VP become president and the Christian president become VP. A person can serve a single term of 6 years as president or VP. And likewise if it were the opposite and the president was Muslim. The place of Christians as people and as Lebanese and the place of Muslims as people and as Lebanese will always remain in Lebanon. But the problem here is the place of the many sectarian warlords, with each acting as an unelected but influential head of state. This has to stop if we are going to have a country. The power of the unelected heads of state must be curtailed and the power given to the citizen. A country of sects led by warlords will always have us remain in conflicts and confusion. The fight has never been between people of different religions. It has always been between parties who use religion and sectarianism to incite people and take advantage of the system for their own selfish interests. In the end, they all have one religion: power and money. They use power to divide and milk the people and the least of their worries or concern is faith. Power can be shared and alternated in a fair and reasonable way and in a better and democratic system and the people should hold the power and decision to impose change. This will never mean relegating any religion or sect out of the system.
 

Achilles

Active Member
You cant be 25% governing 75% and taking everything with full executive powers. This is why there was a civil war. If you want to take us back to pre 75, then you are looking forward to another 15 years, more or less of another civil war.

Well actually you are 30% trying to govern and impose your views on 70%. Do you really Believe that if a referendum is made today on your weapons and policy, most Christians, Druze and Sunnis Who represents 70% of the Lebanese will vote for you to keep them?

On the other hand I agree with you that the current sectarian system should be changed ASAP. That it’s an unfair and outdated system. Many options exists from a full secular state to a secular federal state. The sectarian system is the source of all the tragedies that Lebanon has faced since 1943, and I am all for the complete abolishment of the current system and It’s replacement with a modern one. The new system will of course have To be agreed upon by the Lebanese themselves. Christians in my opinion are making a huge mistake by delaying And avoiding this subject. Having a parliament based on sects quotas is an oddity Concept that might have been Acceptable in 1943, yet is completely outdated today.

Regarding a referendum for a peace with Israel, well I am against this. The executive (Represented by the government) is the right entity to decide of the foreign policy of a country not the people by referendum. Land issues, refugees issues, sovereignty issues must be solved first before peace can become an option.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Well actually you are 30% trying to govern and impose your views on 70%. Do you really Believe that if a referendum is made today on your weapons and policy, most Christians, Druze and Sunnis Who represents 70% of the Lebanese will vote for you to keep them?

On the other hand I agree with you that the current sectarian system should be changed ASAP. That it’s an unfair and outdated system. Many options exists from a full secular state to a secular federal state. The sectarian system is the source of all the tragedies that Lebanon has faced since 1943, and I am all for the complete abolishment of the current system and It’s replacement with a modern one. The new system will of course have To be agreed upon by the Lebanese themselves. Christians in my opinion are making a huge mistake by delaying And avoiding this subject. Having a parliament based on sects quotas is an oddity Concept that might have been Acceptable in 1943, yet is completely outdated today.

Regarding a referendum for a peace with Israel, well I am against this. The executive (Represented by the government) is the right entity to decide of the foreign policy of a country not the people by referendum. Land issues, refugees issues, sovereignty issues must be solved first before peace can become an option.
Our biggest mistake in 1943 was not having federalism or vast administrative decentralization. To make each sect feel comfortable and not marginalized, you need it's adherents to have more powers over its future. We probably wouldn't have fought each other if every sect was comfortable in its areas. Us Shias would probably not have felt ignored by the state.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk
 
You cant be 25% governing 75% and taking everything with full executive powers. This is why there was a civil war. If you want to take us back to pre 75, then you are looking forward to another 15 years, more or less of another civil war.



I am for a referendum on peace with Israehell. We can do this once every 10 years, in case the first one fails to accept. I am maximizing the chance for your wish to come true. Let the people decide. I am for a defense strategy and after which the strategy can be placed in front of the people to approve it through another referendum.

Then let the people vote for their president and vice president also. And even for speaker and PM and their deputies. The era whereby a mafia in parliament decide who is president, PM and speaker among themselves, dividing power the way they like it and as it suits them should end. Power should belong to the people and not to the sectarian warlords, who use the people and the sectarian system every four years to extend their mandate forever. This is not democracy. It is either a parliamentary dictatorship or an oligarchy or kleptocracy. It is anything but democratic.
To start with I am not asking for peace at any cost, peace as long as Lebanon benefits. Today it doesn’t benefit Lebanon to be an Iranian tool and it is costing us very much with the Arab world, and the international community. Never ever in history we were felt as terrorists. What is this !!??

We are not 25% but when you naturalise illegally 400,000 in 1994 then the balance shifts.

And if 25% of Lebanese are able to bring back the golden age of Lebanon while the 75% proved since 1990 that the only thing they can bring is corruption...well why don’t we then go back to the previous model?

It looks like you are fine being stollen your cash and future as long as it is done by a Muslim but if a Christian brings Lebanon good things then never.

Strange mentality...Yalla everything but not the Christians! This is to summarise it.

Let the people decide, I am 100% for referendums
 

HmsBThn

Legendary Member
You cant be 25% governing 75% and taking everything with full executive powers. This is why there was a civil war. If you want to take us back to pre 75, then you are looking forward to another 15 years, more or less of another civil war.



I am for a referendum on peace with Israehell. We can do this once every 10 years, in case the first one fails to accept. I am maximizing the chance for your wish to come true. Let the people decide. I am for a defense strategy and after which the strategy can be placed in front of the people to approve it through another referendum.

Then let the people vote for their president and vice president also. And even for speaker and PM and their deputies. The era whereby a mafia in parliament decide who is president, PM and speaker among themselves, dividing power the way they like it and as it suits them should end. Power should belong to the people and not to the sectarian warlords, who use the people and the sectarian system every four years to extend their mandate forever. This is not democracy. It is either a parliamentary dictatorship or an oligarchy or kleptocracy. It is anything but democratic.

How did the 25% take everything?
Provide proof or stfu.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Well actually you are 30% trying to govern and impose your views on 70%. Do you really Believe that if a referendum is made today on your weapons and policy, most Christians, Druze and Sunnis Who represents 70% of the Lebanese will vote for you to keep them?

Do you support a population census? I do. Isnt one long overdue?
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Do you support a population census? I do. Isnt one long overdue?

Do you support that the outlaw and those who don't pay taxes and fees should be considered felons and strip their right to vote as in every civilized country?
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Do you support that the outlaw and those who don't pay taxes and fees should be considered felons and strip their right to vote as in every civilized country?

I asked a question first based on numerical claims. If you want to intrude in the ongoing discussion, you should reply to it without throwing in a red herring or another question, which is not an answer to my question, in a way that portrays you as agitated and very uneasy. Why do you feel bothered? I believe there goes the answer the answer to my question. You can only feel bothered if the other person's numerical claims are false or baseless and you have something to hide.

And the answer to your question is yes. You are right. So the next question would be: do you support the government pay salary to every unemployed youth as is done in every civilised country? How can you determine that jobless persons for example are not paying tax? I dont think if someone has good employment and steady flow of income he would avoid paying tax; and if he does, yes, I support your suggestion above. This claim is a delusional one from your @$$e$ everytime to remedy your guilty conscience. All taxes in Lebanon are indirectly deducted. I have never gone to buy shawarma whereby I refused to pay VAT for example. It is always part of the price and stated in the receipt. So what taxes do you think I am not paying? Talk to me about me. Tfaddal, Mr Taxes. This will go to show you that by the numerical advantage of others, they pay more VAT than you do.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
I asked a question first based on numerical claims. If you want to intrude in the ongoing discussion, you should reply to it without throwing in a red herring or another question, which is not an answer to my question, in a way that portrays you as agitated and very uneasy. Why do you feel bothered? I believe there goes the answer the answer to my question. You can only feel bothered if the other person's numerical claims are false or baseless and you have something to hide.

And the answer to your question is yes. You are right. So the next question would be: do you support the government pay salary to every unemployed youth as is done in every civilised country? How can you determine that jobless persons for example are not paying tax? I dont think if someone has good employment and steady flow of income he would avoid paying tax; and if he does, yes, I support your suggestion above. This claim is a delusional one from your @$$e$ everytime to remedy your guilty conscience. All taxes in Lebanon are indirectly deducted. I have never gone to buy shawarma whereby I refused to pay VAT for example. It is always part of the price and stated in the receipt. So what taxes do you think I am not paying? Talk to me about me. Tfaddal, Mr Taxes. This will go to show you that by the numerical advantage of others, they pay more VAT than you do.

Ma tensa nabih mn doun ha2 mwazaf nes 3a melna.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Ma tensa nabih mn doun ha2 mwazaf nes 3a melna.

Roo7 7asbo la Nabih. Ana ma khasneh fi. Ana baddeh teghyeer tghayyer nahej Nabih w nahej el 3onsorriyyeh elli 3endak w 3end amthelak. 3onsoriyyetkon w nizamkon el ta2ifey henney khala2o nahej Nabih w Jumblatt w Hariri. Baddak t3alej min el 2ases la yseer fi musawat, w 3adeleh.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Roo7 7asbo la Nabih. Ana ma khasneh fi. Ana baddeh teghyeer tghayyer nahej Nabih w nahej el 3onsorriyyeh elli 3endak w 3end amthelak. 3onsoriyyetkon w nizamkon el ta2ifey henney khala2o nahej Nabih w Jumblatt w Hariri. Baddak t3alej min el 2ases la yseer fi musawat, w 3adeleh.

Enta li baddak aktariyeh (ta2ifiyeh) te7kom w bte7kineh baddak tghayyer?

Do you support mandatory civil marriage where only one man can marry one woman?
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Enta li baddak aktariyeh (ta2ifiyeh) te7kom w bte7kineh baddak tghayyer?

Do you support mandatory civil marriage where only one man can marry one woman?

You are confused or beating around the bush because you represent and closely support an archaic system.

I dont support aktariyyeh ta2ifiyyeh. I support aktatiyyeh lubneniyyeh. But for as long as the apartheid system exists we are neither going to have aktariyyeh ta2ifiyyeh, which is just, nor aktariyyeh Lubneniyyeh, which is the goal and best. So just hush. You dont have to reply everytime your sectarian insecurities are shaken to spe nonsense. And you dont have to reply to my own post and bring down my reasoning to your low mindset. Otherwise, if you troll me with your sectarian insecurities and support for a racist system, I'd block you. Go cry at Bkirki that I blocked you.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
Israel has forbidden its northern space to civilian flights, which corroborates that Israeli warp[lanes don't care about using civilian trajectories.

Still Lebanese Army and its US-well-seen commanders are doing nothing, -at least by concerting with the Syrians on how,- to prevent that Lebanese planes, whether civilian or military planes, get hit by Syrian anti-air defense replying to Israeli attacks from Lebanon.

They did nothing to remove the Ammonium Nitrate that caused a massive explosion in Beirut port.
They did nothing to prevent that Lebanese savings be stolen and transferred abroad.
They will do nothing to prevent that Lebanese people and Lebanese planes be hit.
All they care about is receiving bonpoints from CIA and the Safiha.
 
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