Massive 5,000-year-old Israelite city discovered in northern Israel

  • Advertisement
  • C

    Curiosum

    New Member
    Then it erred in saying "I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD." It was rebuilt many times over. Ezekiel's prophecy doesn't at all fit the historical record. Needs a lot of Christian apologetic to even make it relevant.

    ...

    The OT is full of errors. Not sure if you're going to argue for biblical inerrancy, knowing you. But here's more to chew on.

    Another error would be....

    Exodus 6:3(ESV): "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them."

    Genesis 15:7(ESV): 'And he said to him [Abraham], "I am Yahweh who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess."'


    Another error would be [God creating plants before the sun]...

    Genesis 1:11(ESV): 'And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth." And it was so.'

    Then

    Genesis 1:14-16(ESV): 'And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth."
    You're deflecting and fleeing forward as expected. Let's finish up with Tyre's prophecy, and then i might or might not address your other errors (depending on my charitymeter data)

    Now that the presence of the elephant in the room is established (the answer relayed in my previous post), you simply cannot make the elephant disappear by pointing out that one of his tusks looks to be missing. Here's the relevant material to bang your head against (the entire elephant along with its two tusks):

    ['

    (first stated in an even earlier prophecy with prophet Amos)
    Tyre’s fortresses would fail
    - Bible prophecy: Amos 1:9-10 "This is what the Lord says: “For three sins of Tyre, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. Because she sold whole communities of captives to Edom, disregarding a treaty of brotherhood, I will send fire upon the walls of Tyre that will consume her fortresses.”"
    - Prophecy written: About 750 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: 333-332 BC

    In Amos 1:9-10, the prophet said that God would cause Tyre’s protective fortresses to fail, as punishment for the way that Tyre treated Israel. That prophecy was fulfilled in 586-573 BC when Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar attacked the mainland of Tyre, and in 333-332 BC when Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre. Alexander’s army built a land bridge from the mainland to the island so that they could use a battering ram to break through the island’s fortress.

    Tyre would be attacked by many nations
    - Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:3 "therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves."
    - Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: 573 BC, 332 BC, etc.

    In Ezekiel 26:3, the prophet said that Tyre, the Phoenician Empire’s most powerful city, would be attacked by many nations, because of its treatment of Israel. At about the time that Ezekiel delivered this prophecy, Babylon had begun a 13-year attack on Tyre’s mainland. Later, in about 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre and brought an end to the Phoenician Empire.

    Tyre’s stones, timber and soil would be cast into the sea
    - Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:12 "They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea."
    - Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: 333-332 BC

    In Ezekiel 26:12, the prophet said that Tyre’s stones, timber and soil would be thrown into the sea. Ezekiel’s prophecy accurately describes how Alexander the Great built a land bridge from the mainland to the island of Tyre, when he attacked in 333-332 BC. Alexander’s forces took rubble from Tyre’s mainland and tossed it – stones, timber and soil – into the sea, to build the land bridge (which is still there).

    (also in an separate prophecy with prophet Zechariah)
    Tyre would lose its power over the sea
    - Bible prophecy: Zechariah 9:3-4 "Tyre has built herself a stronghold; she has heaped up silver like dust, and gold like the dirt of the streets.
    But the Lord will take away her possessions and destroy her power on the sea, and she will be consumed by fire."
    - Prophecy written: Between 520 and 518 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: Since 332 BC

    In Zechariah 9:3-4, the prophet said that the Phoenician city of Tyre would lose its status as a powerful nation on the Mediterranean Sea. Today there is a city called Tyre that is either on, or near, the original Phoenician site. But this Tyre is a small city in modern-day Lebanon. It is certainly not the powerful nation that it was in the days of Zechariah.

    Phoenician Tyre would never again be found
    - Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:21 "I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
    - Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: After 332 BC

    In Ezekiel 26:21, the prophet said that the Phoenician city of Tyre would be brought to an end and would never again be found. When Alexander the Great destroyed the city in 332 BC, he brought an end to the Phoenician Empire. The Empire was never revived or “found” again. As for the city itself, it has been torn down and built upon by a succession of foreign powers. Today, finding artifacts from the original Phoenician Tyre is difficult. According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition: “The principal ruins of the city today are those of buildings erected by the Crusaders. There are some Greco-Roman remains, but any left by the Phoenicians lie underneath the present town.”

    Phoenician Tyre would never be rebuilt
    -Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:14 "I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord."
    - Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: Since 332 BC

    In Ezekiel 26:14, the prophet says the Phoenician city of Tyre would be destroyed and never be rebuilt. This was fulfilled when Alexander the Great conquered Tyre in 332 BC. His conquest brought an end to the Phoenician Empire. The empire never recovered from the attack. And so, it could never rebuild Tyre. Other nations and empires have built and rebuilt cities on or near the original Phoenician site.

    Now, as history will show us, the Sidonian port of Tyre is still in use today, and small fishing vessels harbor there. It is a large fishing area now. According to the prophets in God’s Word, Tyre would become a place where fisherman would spread their nets. Understand that there is in existence a city of Tyre. However, this is not the original city, this city is actually built down the coast from the original, and does not, in biblical terms, qualify as the biblical Tyre. Tyre was destroyed, never to be revived again, and to date, it never has, not in its original format.'

    The prophecy is referencing the Phoenician city of Tyre. This never was rebuilt. Later cities certainly were built in the same location, because it was strategically significant and had one of the best harbors in the Mediterranean (still does). But if the prophecy is about Phoenician Tyre, and Phoenicia itself was finished off during the period that Tyre was destroyed, then the prophecy is accurate.

    ']


    ['


    Alexander replaced everything, intentionally making a new city (1). By 332 B.C., the city which boasted against God was annihilated. Regarding what is called Phoenician Tyre, (a) the empire was erased (b) the structures were left in waste (c) the people were replaced. Experts regularly call it a new city (2), and rightfully so (3). This is relevant because these seem to be the most essential features of what makes a city a city; it is most likely, or at least very plausibly, what the author meant would be destroyed.

    (1)
    • Shoshee Chunder Dutt: “After treating Tyre with the greatest atrocity, Alexander rebuilt and replanted it, that future generations might regard him as the founder of a new city.” [Historical Studies and Recreations (Trübner & Co, 1879), 503.]

    (2)
    • Encyclopedia Brittanica 8th ed.: “Alexander replaced the population by a colony of Greeks or Carians (Quin, Curt. iv; Arrian II.; Diod. Sic. xvii.). With this memorable siege terminated the glory of Phoenician Tyre;” [vol XXI (Neil and col.), 406.]

    • Thomas Summers: “Having cleared the city of its former inhabitants, the Macedonian conqueror endeavored to repeople it by colonies from other parts, and styled himself as the founder of Tyre, for the former city had been destroyed. It might be sought, but none could find it. It had passed away.” [Tyre: Its Rise, Glory, and Desolation, With Notices of the Phoenicians Generally (E. Stevenson & F.A. Owen, 1856), 131.]

    (3)
    • “Alexander ordered all but those who had fled to the temples to be put to death and the buildings to be set on fire [These are just the buildings on the small island; virtually all of Tyre's structures were _already _thrown into the sea]…he repopulated Tyre with Greek emigrants and loyal Phoenicians, together with a permanent Macedonian garrison… [and the place was] redesigned as a Greek city, with a colonnaded street…” (Quotes from livius.org here, here, and here). For this and other reasons, it seems more appropriate to say a new city rose from the ashes of the old city (allowing scholars to speak of “Alexander's destruction of _Phoenician _Tyre...”). [John Gibson Warry, Warfare in the Classical World (Salamander, 2000), 115.] After all, despite being given the same name (for convenience), what rose up “in propriety of speech, was another city.” [From "Wesley's Notes on the Bible", made available by Wesleyan Heritage Publishing]

    ']


    ['


    Ezekiel's prophecy directly requires new settlers on the land of Tyre (in order for it to be described as a future place for the drying of nets [see v.5, 14]).

    ']


    ---
     
    Last edited:
    Mukifesto2

    Mukifesto2

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    show me, how many brown skinned israelies exist in Palestine right now that resemble these 5000 years old city brown skinned skeletons... by the way, who farted on this 5000 year old city and made it ruins ?
    Most Israelis lol.
    This guy maffkir Israelis are blonde with blue eyes ?.
     
    Mukifesto2

    Mukifesto2

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    minimum the majority from europe
    Nope, ma 7zirit...
    Most came from MENA countries, and even most of those that came from Europe look identical to those who came from MENA regions.

    Stop believing pan-Arab propaganda. Seriously khayye you claim to be "fehman" aktar mennon yet you keep repeating stupid propaganda created in order to "unite" you all against Israel.
     
    Mukifesto2

    Mukifesto2

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    The percentage of blondes among Jewish populations isn't that much different than Lebanese, from my experience. My Lebanese friend and his wife both extremely dark... Their daughter? Blonde with blue eyes! Tal3a 2orobbiyyi
     
    ّTelefon Kasse

    ّTelefon Kasse

    Member
    btektoub Olga 3al FB btetwa2a3 tle2iha bi Moscow btetla3 3ayshe bi Rishon Letsion :lol:
     
    Ice Tea

    Ice Tea

    Active Member
    minimum the majority from europe. betfarkash fiyoun on social media all the time
    Most are Mizrahim and Sephardim. Not that it matters, Ashkenazim are just as Jewish and indigenous to Israel as the other Jewish groups.

    The blond and blue-eyed Israeli minority are mostly recent Russian economic immigrants who were allowed to immigrate there because they are of partial Jewish origins (all you need is a Jewish grandparent to immigrate to Israel), and not fully Ashkenazi.

     
    ّTelefon Kasse

    ّTelefon Kasse

    Member
    Most are Mizrahim and Sephardim. Not that it matters, Ashkenazim are just as Jewish and indigenous to Israel as the other Jewish groups.

    The blond and blue-eyed Israeli minority are mostly recent Russian economic immigrants who were allowed to immigrate there because they are of partial Jewish origins (all you need is a Jewish grandparent to immigrate to Israel), and not fully Ashkenazi.

    ha ha ha ha ha looks like a good blend of Inca Latin Americans and Indians to me, you forgot to include Ethiopians
     
    ّTelefon Kasse

    ّTelefon Kasse

    Member
    :lol: btes2ala ya Olga mish a7la bi Russia bet2ellak la bi isra2il a7la
    lesh ya Olga?
    li2ano bi Russia only 5 khandrett tollars bi isra2il, 25 khandrett tollars bel shaher
    eh minimum baddak tle2iha bi isra2il
     
    Ice Tea

    Ice Tea

    Active Member
    ha ha ha ha ha looks like a good blend of Inca Latin Americans and Indians to me, you forgot to include Ethiopians

    You're a typical anti-semitic racist with your typical 'Jews are too light, Jews are too dark' bs. Jews are never Jewish or good enough for the likes of you. But I have some news for ya: you don't get to decide who is a Jew and who isn't. And in the end of the day, they'll continue to own Israel because they are the rightful owners of the land
     
    C

    Curiosum

    New Member
    You're deflecting and fleeing forward as expected. Let's finish up with Tyre's prophecy, and then i might or might not address your other errors (depending on my charitymeter data)

    Now that the presence of the elephant in the room is established (the answer relayed in my previous post), you simply cannot make the elephant disappear by pointing out that one of his tusks looks to be missing. Here's the relevant material to bang your head against (the entire elephant along with its two tusks):

    ['

    (first stated in an even earlier prophecy with prophet Amos)
    Tyre’s fortresses would fail
    - Bible prophecy: Amos 1:9-10 "This is what the Lord says: “For three sins of Tyre, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. Because she sold whole communities of captives to Edom, disregarding a treaty of brotherhood, I will send fire upon the walls of Tyre that will consume her fortresses.”"
    - Prophecy written: About 750 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: 333-332 BC

    In Amos 1:9-10, the prophet said that God would cause Tyre’s protective fortresses to fail, as punishment for the way that Tyre treated Israel. That prophecy was fulfilled in 586-573 BC when Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar attacked the mainland of Tyre, and in 333-332 BC when Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre. Alexander’s army built a land bridge from the mainland to the island so that they could use a battering ram to break through the island’s fortress.

    Tyre would be attacked by many nations
    - Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:3 "therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves."
    - Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: 573 BC, 332 BC, etc.

    In Ezekiel 26:3, the prophet said that Tyre, the Phoenician Empire’s most powerful city, would be attacked by many nations, because of its treatment of Israel. At about the time that Ezekiel delivered this prophecy, Babylon had begun a 13-year attack on Tyre’s mainland. Later, in about 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre and brought an end to the Phoenician Empire.

    Tyre’s stones, timber and soil would be cast into the sea
    - Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:12 "They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea."
    - Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: 333-332 BC

    In Ezekiel 26:12, the prophet said that Tyre’s stones, timber and soil would be thrown into the sea. Ezekiel’s prophecy accurately describes how Alexander the Great built a land bridge from the mainland to the island of Tyre, when he attacked in 333-332 BC. Alexander’s forces took rubble from Tyre’s mainland and tossed it – stones, timber and soil – into the sea, to build the land bridge (which is still there).

    (also in an separate prophecy with prophet Zechariah)
    Tyre would lose its power over the sea
    - Bible prophecy: Zechariah 9:3-4 "Tyre has built herself a stronghold; she has heaped up silver like dust, and gold like the dirt of the streets.
    But the Lord will take away her possessions and destroy her power on the sea, and she will be consumed by fire."
    - Prophecy written: Between 520 and 518 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: Since 332 BC

    In Zechariah 9:3-4, the prophet said that the Phoenician city of Tyre would lose its status as a powerful nation on the Mediterranean Sea. Today there is a city called Tyre that is either on, or near, the original Phoenician site. But this Tyre is a small city in modern-day Lebanon. It is certainly not the powerful nation that it was in the days of Zechariah.

    Phoenician Tyre would never again be found
    - Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:21 "I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
    - Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: After 332 BC

    In Ezekiel 26:21, the prophet said that the Phoenician city of Tyre would be brought to an end and would never again be found. When Alexander the Great destroyed the city in 332 BC, he brought an end to the Phoenician Empire. The Empire was never revived or “found” again. As for the city itself, it has been torn down and built upon by a succession of foreign powers. Today, finding artifacts from the original Phoenician Tyre is difficult. According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition: “The principal ruins of the city today are those of buildings erected by the Crusaders. There are some Greco-Roman remains, but any left by the Phoenicians lie underneath the present town.”

    Phoenician Tyre would never be rebuilt
    -Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:14 "I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord."
    - Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
    - Prophecy fulfilled: Since 332 BC

    In Ezekiel 26:14, the prophet says the Phoenician city of Tyre would be destroyed and never be rebuilt. This was fulfilled when Alexander the Great conquered Tyre in 332 BC. His conquest brought an end to the Phoenician Empire. The empire never recovered from the attack. And so, it could never rebuild Tyre. Other nations and empires have built and rebuilt cities on or near the original Phoenician site.

    Now, as history will show us, the Sidonian port of Tyre is still in use today, and small fishing vessels harbor there. It is a large fishing area now. According to the prophets in God’s Word, Tyre would become a place where fisherman would spread their nets. Understand that there is in existence a city of Tyre. However, this is not the original city, this city is actually built down the coast from the original, and does not, in biblical terms, qualify as the biblical Tyre. Tyre was destroyed, never to be revived again, and to date, it never has, not in its original format.'

    The prophecy is referencing the Phoenician city of Tyre. This never was rebuilt. Later cities certainly were built in the same location, because it was strategically significant and had one of the best harbors in the Mediterranean (still does). But if the prophecy is about Phoenician Tyre, and Phoenicia itself was finished off during the period that Tyre was destroyed, then the prophecy is accurate.

    ']


    ['


    Alexander replaced everything, intentionally making a new city (1). By 332 B.C., the city which boasted against God was annihilated. Regarding what is called Phoenician Tyre, (a) the empire was erased (b) the structures were left in waste (c) the people were replaced. Experts regularly call it a new city (2), and rightfully so (3). This is relevant because these seem to be the most essential features of what makes a city a city; it is most likely, or at least very plausibly, what the author meant would be destroyed.

    (1)
    • Shoshee Chunder Dutt: “After treating Tyre with the greatest atrocity, Alexander rebuilt and replanted it, that future generations might regard him as the founder of a new city.” [Historical Studies and Recreations (Trübner & Co, 1879), 503.]

    (2)
    • Encyclopedia Brittanica 8th ed.: “Alexander replaced the population by a colony of Greeks or Carians (Quin, Curt. iv; Arrian II.; Diod. Sic. xvii.). With this memorable siege terminated the glory of Phoenician Tyre;” [vol XXI (Neil and col.), 406.]

    • Thomas Summers: “Having cleared the city of its former inhabitants, the Macedonian conqueror endeavored to repeople it by colonies from other parts, and styled himself as the founder of Tyre, for the former city had been destroyed. It might be sought, but none could find it. It had passed away.” [Tyre: Its Rise, Glory, and Desolation, With Notices of the Phoenicians Generally (E. Stevenson & F.A. Owen, 1856), 131.]

    (3)
    • “Alexander ordered all but those who had fled to the temples to be put to death and the buildings to be set on fire [These are just the buildings on the small island; virtually all of Tyre's structures were _already _thrown into the sea]…he repopulated Tyre with Greek emigrants and loyal Phoenicians, together with a permanent Macedonian garrison… [and the place was] redesigned as a Greek city, with a colonnaded street…” (Quotes from livius.org here, here, and here). For this and other reasons, it seems more appropriate to say a new city rose from the ashes of the old city (allowing scholars to speak of “Alexander's destruction of _Phoenician _Tyre...”). [John Gibson Warry, Warfare in the Classical World (Salamander, 2000), 115.] After all, despite being given the same name (for convenience), what rose up “in propriety of speech, was another city.” [From "Wesley's Notes on the Bible", made available by Wesleyan Heritage Publishing]

    ']


    ['


    Ezekiel's prophecy directly requires new settlers on the land of Tyre (in order for it to be described as a future place for the drying of nets [see v.5, 14]).

    ']


    ---
    @Mysobalanus, what do you make of that?

    Summary of the prophecy: Tyre would be attacked by the Babylonians (Nebuchadnezzar) and other nations, it would lose its power over the sea, its fortresses would fail, its stones, timber and soil would be cast into the sea, it would never be rebuilt, it would never again be found, it itself (or its land) would become a bare rock for the drying of nets.

    your counter claims so far have been a failure since 'Nebuchadnezzar alone not achieving this feat' is accounted for by the prophecy itself and so is the existence of new settlers on the land of Tyre ('Tyre would be a future place for the drying of nets')

    What do you make of the fact that Ezekiel’s prophecy perfectly fits the historical record - even with an outstanding particular that couldn't reasonably be the result of an 'educated guess', namely that "Tyre's stones, timber and soil would be cast into the sea," which was fulfilled by Alexander having his army build a land bridge from the mainland to the island so that they could use a battering ram to break through the island’s fortress, and this by taking the rubble from Tyre’s mainland and tossing it – stones, timber and soil – into the sea, to build it, a feat that evidently wasn't on anyone's mind or expectation when it happened?

    I'm curious.
     
    Last edited:
    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    @Mysobalanus, what do you make of that?
    I'm curious.
    The verses match the historical record where they are too general and apply to any civilization / nation in the history of mankind.

    Where they don't match is what you tried to avoid through deceitful apologetic.

    (1) Nebuchadnezzar was specifically said to be the one destroying Tyre, killing all its people and throwing its rubble in the sea. But he failed to come even near doing any of that. But YOU decided to deform the text because "other nations" where mentioned somewhere else and God said he will bring them too against Tyre. When the verse says "Nebuchadnezzar ".

    Ezekiel 26:7-27:36
    7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.


    (2) Tyre was never made a permanent barren rock and was rebuilt many times over.

    You strike me as someone not concerned with truth. But looking for escape routes. The previous discussion with you amounted to nothing. And this one seems to be going nowhere. So whatever. Believe what you want and change the text as you wish. People can read and have eyes. Your Christianity is so ridiculous to the learned man and you're making it worse.
     
    C

    Curiosum

    New Member
    The verses match the historical record where they are too general and apply to any civilization / nation in the history of mankind.

    Where they don't match is what you tried to avoid through deceitful apologetic.

    (1) Nebuchadnezzar was specifically said to be the one destroying Tyre, killing all its people and throwing its rubble in the sea. But he failed to come even near doing any of that. But YOU decided to deform the text because "other nations" where mentioned somewhere else and God said he will bring them too against Tyre. When the verse says "Nebuchadnezzar ".

    Ezekiel 26:7-27:36
    7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.


    (2) Tyre was never made a permanent barren rock and was rebuilt many times over.

    You strike me as someone not concerned with truth. But looking for escape routes. The previous discussion with you amounted to nothing. And this one seems to be going nowhere. So whatever. Believe what you want and change the text as you wish. People can read and have eyes. Your Christianity is so ridiculous to the learned man and you're making it worse.
    Instead of repeating your baseless and uninformed claims ad nauseam, how about you start by actually addressing the relevant material?

    The somewhere else where "other nations" is mentioned is actually the beginning of the passage you are quoting, it is the essential part of the passage that you somehow in your proclaimed keen pursuit of truth decided to leave out of your quote and not address in your post. Pointing that out (starting in my first reply to you) is certainly not 'changing the text' and 'practicing deceit', on the other hand portraying that to be so as you're doing is. And that is your feckless and wicked attempt at deflecting the reader from the actual 'practicing of deceit' and 'changing of the text' that you yourself are committing, all while also explicitly preaching on truth nevertheless. Sha3eb we2e7, wicked w bala principles

    This a rundown of the prophecy in question with its stunning particulars, astonishingly fitting both the relevant text and the historical record of it being fulfilled:

    Many nations would be brought against Tyre in a successive and repetitive manner (like the sea casts up its waves), the Babylonians headed by Nebuchadnezzar (a contemporary of Ezekiel) would be among them and the first of them. Tyre would be completely defeated and destroyed, never again be rebuilt, would have its stones, timber and soil cast into the sea, and itself made into a bare rock for the spreading and drying of fishing nets, but NOT at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar.

    The particulars here that cannot be reasonably considered the result of an 'educated guess': a) Nebuchadnezzar is not the one that would finish up Tyre, and b) Tyre's stones, timber and soil would be thrown into the sea in the process of it being completely defeated and destroyed


    Ezekiel 26

    ...

    3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.

    4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.

    5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations,

    6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

    7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.

    8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you.

    9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons.

    10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through.

    11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground.

    12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea.

    13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more.

    14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.


    Ezekiel 29:18

    18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it.



    ---


    "It would never be rebuilt".

    ['


    ALEXANDER REPLACED PHOENICIAN TYRE

    Alexander replaced everything, intentionally making a new city.1 By 332 B.C., the city which boasted against God was annihilated. Regarding what is called Phoenician Tyre, (a) the empire was erased (b) the structures were left in waste (c) the people were replaced. Experts regularly call it a new city,2 and rightfully so.3 This is relevant because these seem to be the most essential features of what makes a city a city; it is most likely, or at least very plausibly, what the author meant would be destroyed.

    (1)
    • Shoshee Chunder Dutt: “After treating Tyre with the greatest atrocity, Alexander rebuilt and replanted it, that future generations might regard him as the founder of a new city.” [Historical Studies and Recreations (Trübner & Co, 1879), 503.]

    (2)
    • Encyclopedia Brittanica 8th ed.: “Alexander replaced the population by a colony of Greeks or Carians (Quin, Curt. iv; Arrian II.; Diod. Sic. xvii.). With this memorable siege terminated the glory of Phoenician Tyre;” [vol XXI (Neil and col.), 406.]

    • Thomas Summers: “Having cleared the city of its former inhabitants, the Macedonian conqueror endeavored to repeople it by colonies from other parts, and styled himself as the founder of Tyre, for the former city had been destroyed. It might be sought, but none could find it. It had passed away.” [Tyre: Its Rise, Glory, and Desolation, With Notices of the Phoenicians Generally (E. Stevenson & F.A. Owen, 1856), 131.]

    (3)
    • “Alexander ordered all but those who had fled to the temples to be put to death and the buildings to be set on fire [These are just the buildings on the small island; virtually all of Tyre's structures were _already _thrown into the sea]…he repopulated Tyre with Greek emigrants and loyal Phoenicians, together with a permanent Macedonian garrison… [and the place was] redesigned as a Greek city, with a colonnaded street…” (Quotes from livius.org here, here, and here). For this and other reasons, it seems more appropriate to say a new city rose from the ashes of the old city (allowing scholars to speak of “Alexander's destruction of _Phoenician _Tyre...”). [John Gibson Warry, Warfare in the Classical World (Salamander, 2000), 115.] After all, despite being given the same name (for convenience), what rose up “in propriety of speech, was another city.” [From "Wesley's Notes on the Bible", made available by Wesleyan Heritage Publishing]

    ']


    ['


    Ezekiel's prophecy directly requires new settlers on the land of Tyre (in order for it to be described as a future place for the drying of nets [see v.5, 14]).

    ']
     
    Last edited:
    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Instead of repeating your baseless and uninformed claims ad nauseam, how about you start by actually addressing the relevant material?

    The somewhere else where "other nations" is mentioned is actually the beginning of the passage you are quoting, it is the essential part of the passage that you somehow in your proclaimed keen pursuit of truth decided to leave out of your quote and not address in your post. Pointing that out (starting in my first reply to you) is certainly not 'changing the text' and 'practicing deceit', on the other hand portraying that to be so as you're doing is. And that is your feckless and wicked attempt at deflecting the reader from the actual 'practicing of deceit' and 'changing of the text' that you yourself are committing, all while also explicitly preaching on truth nevertheless. Sha3eb we2e7, wicked w bala principles

    This a rundown of the prophecy in question with its stunning particulars, astonishingly fitting both the relevant text and the historical record of it being fulfilled:

    Many nations would be brought against Tyre in a successive and repetitive manner (like the sea casts up its waves), the Babylonians headed by Nebuchadnezzar (a contemporary of Ezekiel) would be among them and the first of them. Tyre would be completely defeated and destroyed, never again be rebuilt, would have its stones, timber and soil cast into the sea, and itself made into a bare rock for the spreading and drying of fishing nets, but NOT at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar.

    The particulars here that cannot be reasonably considered the result of an 'educated guess': a) Nebuchadnezzar is not the one that would finish up Tyre, and b) Tyre's stones, timber and soil would be thrown into the sea in the process of it being completely defeated and destroyed


    Ezekiel 26

    ...

    3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.

    4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.

    5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations,

    6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

    7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.

    8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you.

    9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons.

    10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through.

    11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground.

    12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea.

    13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more.

    14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.


    Ezekiel 29:18

    18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it.



    ---


    "It would never be rebuilt".

    ['


    ALEXANDER REPLACED PHOENICIAN TYRE

    Alexander replaced everything, intentionally making a new city.1 By 332 B.C., the city which boasted against God was annihilated. Regarding what is called Phoenician Tyre, (a) the empire was erased (b) the structures were left in waste (c) the people were replaced. Experts regularly call it a new city,2 and rightfully so.3 This is relevant because these seem to be the most essential features of what makes a city a city; it is most likely, or at least very plausibly, what the author meant would be destroyed.

    (1)
    • Shoshee Chunder Dutt: “After treating Tyre with the greatest atrocity, Alexander rebuilt and replanted it, that future generations might regard him as the founder of a new city.” [Historical Studies and Recreations (Trübner & Co, 1879), 503.]

    (2)
    • Encyclopedia Brittanica 8th ed.: “Alexander replaced the population by a colony of Greeks or Carians (Quin, Curt. iv; Arrian II.; Diod. Sic. xvii.). With this memorable siege terminated the glory of Phoenician Tyre;” [vol XXI (Neil and col.), 406.]

    • Thomas Summers: “Having cleared the city of its former inhabitants, the Macedonian conqueror endeavored to repeople it by colonies from other parts, and styled himself as the founder of Tyre, for the former city had been destroyed. It might be sought, but none could find it. It had passed away.” [Tyre: Its Rise, Glory, and Desolation, With Notices of the Phoenicians Generally (E. Stevenson & F.A. Owen, 1856), 131.]

    (3)
    • “Alexander ordered all but those who had fled to the temples to be put to death and the buildings to be set on fire [These are just the buildings on the small island; virtually all of Tyre's structures were _already _thrown into the sea]…he repopulated Tyre with Greek emigrants and loyal Phoenicians, together with a permanent Macedonian garrison… [and the place was] redesigned as a Greek city, with a colonnaded street…” (Quotes from livius.org here, here, and here). For this and other reasons, it seems more appropriate to say a new city rose from the ashes of the old city (allowing scholars to speak of “Alexander's destruction of _Phoenician _Tyre...”). [John Gibson Warry, Warfare in the Classical World (Salamander, 2000), 115.] After all, despite being given the same name (for convenience), what rose up “in propriety of speech, was another city.” [From "Wesley's Notes on the Bible", made available by Wesleyan Heritage Publishing]

    ']


    ['


    Ezekiel's prophecy directly requires new settlers on the land of Tyre (in order for it to be described as a future place for the drying of nets [see v.5, 14]).

    ']
    THEY refers to " I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army "

    Stop lying. He wouldn't have been mentioned with his army if he had no role throughout the passage in all that it said. Go lie with your pastor and make money of stupid people. Not with me, boy.

    Lol at "it was never rebuilt" because Alexander literally "rebuilt it differently". I thank God I'm not a Christian. And Lol at forgetting God promising it will be "barren and for fishermen". Hahahaha
     
    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    And @Curiosum, If you want to keep reposting the same illogical and deceitful apologetic websites, while I put effort and write everything, you're going to get blocked permanently. I have no time for brainwashwed Xians like you who run to apologetic websites like Salafi Muslims instead of being able to form a coherent response. And you're like them, without a brain.

    When I read the verse, I see clear indications it was describing Nebuchadnezzar and his army attacking Tyre. And not Alexander or "many nations". Even focuses on his horsemen, etc. The level of back-flipping you have to should be an indication to you that you're making a 'Texas sharpshooter" fallacy and trying to see similarities to make a connection that doesn't exist between Alexander and what the Bible promised Nebu would do. The verse predicted Nebu would attack, pillage and destroy and he never did. Tough luck. The verse predicted Tyre will be a barren rock for fishermen and it never was. Alexander made it a thriving city and it is still to this day. Tough luck.
     
    C

    Curiosum

    New Member
    THEY refers to " I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army "

    Stop lying. He wouldn't have been mentioned with his army if he had no role throughout the passage in all that it said. Go lie with your pastor and make money of stupid people. Not with me, boy.

    Lol at "it was never rebuilt" because Alexander literally "rebuilt it differently". I thank God I'm not a Christian. And Lol at forgetting God promising it will be "barren and for fishermen". Hahahaha
    And @Curiosum, If you want to keep reposting the same illogical and deceitful apologetic websites, while I put effort and write everything, you're going to get blocked permanently. I have no time for brainwashwed Xians like you who run to apologetic websites like Salafi Muslims instead of being able to form a coherent response. And you're like them, without a brain.

    When I read the verse, I see clear indications it was describing Nebuchadnezzar and his army attacking Tyre. And not Alexander or "many nations". Even focuses on his horsemen, etc. The level of back-flipping you have to should be an indication to you that you're making a 'Texas sharpshooter" fallacy and trying to see similarities to make a connection that doesn't exist between Alexander and what the Bible promised Nebu would do. The verse predicted Nebu would attack, pillage and destroy and he never did. Tough luck. The verse predicted Tyre will be a barren rock for fishermen and it never was. Alexander made it a thriving city and it is still to this day. Tough luck.
    You are still failing to address the actual material.

    I lastly conveyed the point to you by way of highlighting the relevant text and thought you would get it, as in junior school. But never mind. Here's the descriptive text: The 'They' at verse 12 is an iteration or 'a revisiting' of the same 'They' that is used at the beginning of the passage at verse 4 where it is referring to the 'many nations' (the part you decided to leave out).

    3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.

    4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.

    5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations

    Repeated or revisited here:

    12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea.

    14 I will make you a bare rock,

    Textually, the “He” (Nebuchadnezzar, personifying his nation) that was introduced at verse 8 and employed all the way down till verse 11, referring to Nebuchadnezzar in verse 7 (7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army ..., 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland ..., 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls ..., 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust ..., 11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword) is distinguished from “they” (the "many nations" which would destroy Tyre). This is relevant because, insofar as “he” is most naturally understood as one of “they,” Nebuchadnezzar's army is to be considered only one of the “many nations.”

    This is further ascertained by the fact that a) the 'they' at verse 12 refers to those that would destroy the city, throw its stones, timber and soil into the sea AND plunder its wealth and loot its merchandise, and b) Ezekiel in a subsequent verse (Ezekiel 29:18) made it clear that Nebuchadnezzar is not the one that will plunder Tyre's wealth and loot its merchandise (probably because, and as our historical knowledge suggests, 'there were no spoils to plunder, the people in Tyre had used their superb fleet to remove everything of value far away, at least far enough away to an island about a half mile off shore. They had just continually over the 13 years of Nebuchadnezzar 's siege been shuttling everything of value off shore.')

    ---

    With regards to it never be rebuilt; by analogy, if Tyre is a person and is dead and is not resurrected, then it will remain dead and not resurrected even if someone else lived in Tyre's home and adopted the same name (let alone if this someone else was Tyre's murderer).

    To accommodate your understanding and for argument's sake, let us hypothetically consider that at some point in our distant past, a native american tribe known as 'the Tyrelodeans' got out of their tents and built a powerful city and called it 'Tyrelado', a city where they lived and flourished for thousands of years.

    And then along came a neighboring outsider and predicted that because Tyrelado had been threatening and bullying his own city, it will be attacked by many nations and will be completely defeated and destroyed, and will have its name reduced the bare ground it once was built on, and that it would never be rebuilt.

    Then a century or two down the line the Europeans arrived from across the Atlantic ocean to the shores of Tyrelado and annihilated it; raised it to the ground, killed its people, destroyed their buildings, temples and culture and their traces, wiped out the city clean down to the ground, and prepared themselves to build and inhabit it anew in its native people's place, while conveniently retaining for the region where the city once was the name Tyrelado which at this point referred only to the bare ground the original Tyrelado was built on.

    Given this data, do you consider Tyrelado to have been rebuilt (or that it could ever be rebuilt)?
     
    Last edited:
    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Given this data, do you consider Tyrelado to have been rebuilt (or that it could ever be rebuilt)?
    Common sense tells me that every city destroyed can never be rebuilt as it was. And so in your apologetic, God's curse means nothing.

    And you're still missing the point. "They" meant Nebu's army and mentioned him specifically as the main nemesis of Tyre from those nations. And he didn't come near to doing any of what was mentioned. A nation that comes centuries afterwards and takes most of the role doesn't seem to be sent by God but by coincidence. Or else your God would have specifically mentioned Alexander. Why didn't he?
     
    C

    Curiosum

    New Member
    Common sense tells me that every city destroyed can never be rebuilt as it was. And so in your apologetic, God's curse means nothing.

    And you're still missing the point. "They" meant Nebu's army and mentioned him specifically as the main nemesis of Tyre from those nations. And he didn't come near to doing any of what was mentioned. A nation that comes centuries afterwards and takes most of the role doesn't seem to be sent by God but by coincidence. Or else your God would have specifically mentioned Alexander. Why didn't he?
    Common sense should also tell you that two human beings can have the same personal name, with one being dead while the other living in their place, and both still be and identified as two completely unrelated human beings (as much unrelated as any two human beings could ever be), and where if we are referring to one, it surely doesn't mean we are or would be referring to the other.

    ===

    Your main position really hinges on scraping off essential parts of the text that you are supposed to address in defense of your claims (in this case verses 3 to 5, among others) and acting like an ostrich (a deranged one to be precise) in the face of someone pointing that out to you. Is this really how truth gets pursued in your circles?

    The author in that passage is employing a known literary device called the 'chiastic structure' (e.g. ABCXCBA); 'a chiasm (also called a chiasmus) is a literary device in which a sequence of ideas is presented and then repeated in reverse order. The result is a “mirror” effect as the ideas are “reflected” back in a passage. Each idea is connected to its “reflection” by a repeated word, often in a related form.'

    One cannot but recognize the general AXA structure that the author employed in the relevant passage. He starts off with a declaration (verses 3-5) (paraphrasing the verses here) 'many nations will come up against Tyre, and they will cause its total destruction, they will plunder its wealth and loot it, they will throw the city into the sea, and they will bring a definitive end to it'. The author then proceeds (verses 7-11) into giving a glimpse into some of the declared actions being performed by one of the many nations referred to in the above-declared overall process, namely 'Nebuchadnezzar (a contemporary figure of the prophet), a personification of the Babylonian nation, would come with horses, wagons and chariots and ravage Tyre's settlements on the mainland with the sword, laying a siege on it, attacking its walls, demolishing its towers and eventually entering its gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through'. The author then ends the passage with the same declaration he started the passage with (verses 12-14) 'many nations will come up against Tyre, and they will cause its total destruction, they will plunder its wealth and loot it, throw the city into the sea, and they will bring a definitive end to it'

    What does this indicate?; The word "they" in verse 12 is not a continuation of the Nebuchadnezzar theme, but rather a continuation of the "many nations" theme of which Nebuchadnezzar is the starting point; The 'They' refers to the 'many nations', and Nebuchadnezzar (the Babylonian nation) is obviously not the "many nations" referenced in verse 3 but one of the "many nations"; And thus the actions of verses 3-5 and 12-14 may be performed by any nations God brings against Tyre and need not be actions of Nebuchadnezzar.

    Not stating the specific names of those other/many nations is consistent with the nature of prophecies, a prophecy only needs a minimum amount of relevant particulars to make it apt for fulfillment as a prophecy. And outstanding particulars does this prophecy have, ones that can hardly be the result of an 'educated guess'. Two packed examples would be;

    (a) Many nations rather than Nebuchadnezzar alone would finish off Tyre (which was indicated textually in the passage itself and later reaffirmed by the prophet in a subsequent chapter where he expanded on it and further prophesied of Nebuchadnezzar's complete conquest of Egypt and his plundering of its wealth (rather than that being with Tyre, as specifically noted).

    (b) Tyre's stones, timber and soil (basically the city itself) would be cast into the sea, which was fulfilled by Alexander tossing the ruins of mainland Tyre into the sea to build the land bridge (the cross-way) that helped him conquer the island of Tyre and thereby bringing an end - a permanent end - to the Phoenician Empire (at which point the Phoenician city of Tyre ceased to exist).

    ---

    The Phoenician Tyre that had taunted the Jews and had gloated over the destruction of the Holy City of Jerusalem is the city that Ezekiel was speaking of, and that city no longer exists: ' Alexander replaced everything, intentionally making a new city. (a) The empire was erased (b) the structures were left in waste (c) the people were replaced. Experts regularly call it a new city, and rightfully so. This is relevant because these seem to be the most essential features of what makes a city a city; it is most likely, or at least very plausibly, what the author meant would be destroyed. '

    ---

    Bonus: what and who were those many nations after all, besides Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander?: 'According to the ancient historian Arrian, author of "Anabasi Alexandri," (2.20.1-2), Alexander got some help in attacking Tyre. Having no navy of his own to speak of, he got naval help from his friends in Macedon and from the Phoenician city-states Aradus, Byblos, and Sidon; ships also came from Enylos, Soli and Mallos, Rhodes, Lycia, and Cyprus to join in the fray and help Alexander overcome Tyre [Flem.Tyre, 58]. Each, other than Macedon, was an entirely separate nation from those in Alexander's land forces: a sort of ancient Gulf War Coalition']])'
     
    Last edited:
    Top