Metwalis - yemenite shiism or converted samaritans

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    manifesto

    Well-Known Member
    Lebanese dialect is originally Hebrew and not Syriac.
    Metwalis language was Hebrew at the dawn of Islam.
    Only Maronites spoke Syriac

    There's nothing such as the Metwali sect.
    It's just one of the many nicknames that was given to Lebanese Shiites.
    I have no idea why you insist on spreading this misinformation around.

    يلقَّبون في لبنان بـ ( المُتَاوِلَة ) ، وهو جمع : متوالي ، إسم فاعل من : تَوالَى ، مأخوذ من : الوِلاء والمُوَالاة ، وهي : حُبُّ أهل البيت ( عليهم السلام ) واتباع طريقتهم
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    There's nothing such as the Metwali sect.
    It's just one of the many nicknames that was given to Lebanese Shiites.

    يلقَّبون في لبنان بـ ( المُتَاوِلَة ) ، وهو جمع : متوالي ، إسم فاعل من : تَوالَى ، مأخوذ من : الوِلاء والمُوَالاة ، وهي : حُبُّ أهل البيت ( عليهم السلام ) واتباع طريقتهم
    This is false and not evidenced in historiography

    Metwali means non Arab loyalists to Arabs and not Ali.

    Iranian Twelver Shi'a theology constructed this connection in literature that only came to exist in Iranian theology of the 19th century.

    Incoherence in the Process of Transformation of the Metwali into Jaʿfari Shiʿa and the Consequent Militant Mobilization of Twelver Shiʿa (2017)


    Introduction

    Metwali, a word which means loyalist to the Arabs, is a racial classification that refers to foreign converts, including the Jews in Medina, that are classified by language1 and this discursive formation is produced in Abbasid Caliphate historiography. Al-Jahez (775-868 A.D.) in his discussion of the Metwali in al-Rasaʾel makes the distinction based on linguistically foreign Muslim converts or Aʿjami that became assimilated into Arab culture. The word Aʿjami does not have any link to the Persian language as it is commonly used in modern day Arabic. In his description Al-Jehaz linguistically associates Abraham’s being Aʿjami to Metwali.2 (p. 129)
    [....]
    The Discursive Division Metwali, Shiʿa


    Confession as the subject of regulation was a category utilized to divide the population of Israel, Lebanon and Syria along confessional lines. It appears in the King Crane Report 1919. It is also evident in academic discourses of nation and nationalism.[1] The discursive division Metwali and Shiʿa can be observed in several analyses on Lebanon, the most particularistic of which are the works of Kais Firro and Max Weiss.

    Firro traces a study done by a Shiʿa scholar 1910 named Ahmed Rida. The core problem presented by the scholar is within fields of regulation of objects of relations in the process of regrouping the material relations made to Metwali and transforming it into a sub-entity of a Muslim, or an Arab, or an Ottoman umma. Rida argues umma is attributed “to a group of complex needs, and with united orientation.” It either comprises “several religions regrouped into one language”, or “several languages regrouped by one religion”, or “several languages and religions”. Rida concludes that his community then is a sub entity of the Muslim religious umma, the Arab national umma, and the Ottoman civic umma.[2] Reworking objects of relations made by statements about the discursive formation Metwali was necessary to transform the non-Arab Metwali into an Arab-Shiʿa.

    Firro situates the identity crisis as a choice to be made in the material coherence imagined to exist between Metwali translated in his work as “loyalist to Aʿli” and the narrative of origin of Aʿmili Shiʿa. He explains the “identity crisis” hypothesis semantically. It is the result of a collective choice of a narrative of identity by a materially existing coherent group of people designated in both cases as Shiʿa. The thesis explaining the identity crisis does not point at a conflict in identity, but at coherence in the designation Shiʿa relating to a materially existing group, the Metwali..[3]Both “loyalist to Aʿli” and the narrative of Aʿmili Shiʿa make reference to the confessional identity Shiʿa. What requires warranting in this argument is the claim that a historical material existence of statements within its own time and space actually did make relations between Aʿli and Metwali. In fact, such historical records specific to the era of Aʿli and the Umayyad Caliphate does not exist. Then what needs to be located is the time and space producing statements making objects of relation between the Metwali and Aʿli. This is the point of reproduction of statements with the aim of dispersing the discursive formation non-Arab Metwali.

    Working with historiography of the late nineteenth, and early twentieth century European Orientalists, Max Weiss pins at the point in history the discursive division Metwali was seeing its transformation. This process can be analyzed from excerpts he quoted of historians of the era. Common in the excerpts of British and French Orientalists was the abjection of the Metwali cultural practices, seeing resemblance between their practices and appearance to Jews. Irish historian Richard Robert Maddens (1798-1886) describes Metwali as “heterodox Mohamedeans,” referring to themselves as Orthodox Ottoman subjects; nevertheless he believed them to be one of the Shiʿa sects of Aʿli. David Urquhart (1805-1877) observed that they practiced a strange religion and they would not eat with Christians or Muslims. Urquhart distinguishes the group from the Aʿmili Shiʿa based on race. Belgian Jesuit Orientalist historian Henry Lammens (1862-1937) probably stated the process in the clearest form. The object of dispersion and redistribution of the objects of statements by Lammens is segregation of immemorial confessional communities by origins. Lammens identified that Metwali of Lebanon spoken Arabic sounded like Persian, or Kurdish. Relations made to Persian and Kurdish origins break with the continuity of origins in the narrative of the Aʿmili Shiʿa. The latter narrates their ancestry to the third century B.C. Yemenite tribe’s migration to the Galilee. At Saint Joseph University in Beirut Lammens takes out the controversial question of how to best situate the origins of the Metwali. He regroups relations between Aʿmili Shiʿa and Metwali to refute conclusions relating Metwali racial difference to Persian, Kurdish or Jewish origins and argues instead that Yemenite migrants to the Galilee in the third century B.C. were also the ancestors of the Metwali.[4]

    Discourse of origin is produced by European diplomats and historians imagining identity as an organic object existing in the state of nature, a correlation carried through history, rather than a correlation with government regulation of the identity of its subjects. It is quite difficult to pin at the origins of the Metwali. It is however possible to pin at points of transformation of this identity by institutional regulation institutionalized during the Ottoman Empire compared with those institutionalized by the government of Lebanon. It is also possible to pin the material relations made to this identity from the historiography of the Arab Conquest.

    The Règlement Organique 1864[5] was an attempt to reorganize the Milla of the Ottoman Empire into an administrative council over the Mutsarafiya of Mount Lebanon. What is evident in the categorization of the subjects of the Mutsarafiya in the Règlement Organique is that the only group not classified in confessional terms was the Metwali. Metwali is a racial character. Race played a fundamental role in the process of discrimination and resistance during the early stages of Arab imperialism.

    Throughout its Arab and non Arab governments, with the exception of the Abbasside Caliphate until Maʾmoun, Islamic imperial orders discriminated against Aramean and Jewish converts called colloquially Metwali. Metwali paid taxes on the produce of their land under the Caliphate of Omar. They received harsh treatment by Umayyad Al-Hajaj Ibn Yousef. They were demanded to pay jiziya- a tax imposed on Christians and Jews- if they moved to the cities. Such discriminatory practices made them attracted to the camp of the opposition to the Umayyads demonstrating affinity with North Arabian Hashemites. The latter adopted the teachings of Abu Hanifa al Numaan, a Muwali from Kufa. In the same camp were Southern Arabian Yemenites. They followed the teachings of Zayd Iben Aʿli, Zaydiyyah Shiʿa. Both were categorized as Arabs and held positions within the Umayyad government. The Hashemites included and were supported by Shiʿa Arabs also Hashemites.[6]

    The Metwali were not the Shiʿa. Metwali were associated with the Muʿtazelah, a philosophy developed by prominent Muwalies in Basra[7] and Damascus.[8] Muʿtazelah formed the core of intellectuals translating Greek and Persian philosophy starting the process of linguistic assimilation of Syria and Iraq. This process was initiated by Umayyad ʿAbdul al Malek and continued until Abbasside Maʾmoun. The latter followed their philosophical teachings leading to a controversial polarization headed by Iben Hanbal, an Arab traditionalist. The controversy was due to Muʿtazelah’s philosophical belief that the Quran was created by, and not descended from God. The word Muʿtazelah meaning isolation is taken from the belief in a divine command given to Abraham to detach his faith from religious conflict. Consequently, they detached themselves from the North Arabians schism over the legitimacy of power. They advocated no loyalty to Aʿli, and so did the “takfiriKhawarij on different grounds. Muʿtazelah induced influence is seen in the Shiʿa theology of Zaydiyyah in Yemen. The latter supported violent resistance against Umayyad usurpation of power as a matter of right. Zaydiyyah accepted legitimacy of any ruler if achieved by consensus. Thus, legitimizing the four Caliphs and rejecting the legitimacy of the Umayyads. Muʿtazelah disagreed with Jaʿfari on the issue of taqia, a practice of isolation from engaging in any violent resistance against the Umayyads following the death of Al Hossein in Karbalaʾ. Muʿtazelah believed in free will and violent resistance in opposition to the Umayyads supported marjeʾa doctrine of determinism somehow endorsed within the Jaʿfari taqia. There was no philosophical affinity between the Metwali Muʿtazelah doctrine of free will and the North Arabian Jaʿfari endorsement of marjeʾa, albeit isolation is a concept incorporated in taqia’s determinism. Metwali were denied the right to participate in government, an exclusive right given to Arabs. They were considered heretics and consequently not recognized as Muslims by radical Sunni orders starting with Salahudin al-Ayoubi.[9]

    Discourse of recruitment into Twelver Shiʿa militancy started its production during the late nineteenth century Iran. It reached its climax at the Iranian Revolution. The seminal production of the era is a text attributed to Aʿli titled Mafatih el Jinnan. It was translated into Arabic in 1982. This text and associated set of Hadith claimed to be words of the Twelve Imams produce knowledge complementing the government confessional regulation. After Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 1982, Iranian Twelver Shiʿa discourse regulating sectarian identities of the Arab conflict over power started penetrating Jaʿfari Shiʿa theology in Lebanon. It is this point in history that Twelver Shiʿa is mobilized horizontally by Khomeini’s doctrine Wilayat al-Faqih.[10] It takes over from Jaʿfari Shiʿa vertical resistance to the confessional system of government mobilized by Musa el Sadr by taking advantage of his disappearance to fill the theological vacuum.

    The coherence of Twelver Shiʿa construction of continuity between Jaʿfari and Twelver Shiʿa is shattered by historiography. A text written by el-Sharastani (d. 1154 A.D.), describing sects of Islam during the early eleventh century identifies discontinuity and incoherence between Jaʿfari and Twelver Shiʿa. The schism erupted at the death of Jaʿafar al-Sadiq leading to the birth of several sects within the Shiʿa tradition. The first sect is Jaʿfari. It halted continuation of the concept of Imamate due to the fact that his oldest son Ismail died before him. A schism erupted between followers of his deceased first son Ismail and followers of his living son Musa. Followers of Ismail gave the Imamate to Ismail. They considered him a hidden Imam, counting his son Mohamed the seventh Imam, and establishing the Ismaili sect. Twelver Shiʿa gave the position his son Musa. They continued counting until the death of the Twelfth Imam in the ninth century, also considered hidden.[11] What is significant in the rationalization process of Ismaili and Jaʿfari Shiʿa described by el-Shahrastani is that the source of the concept of the Imamate originates from Jewish tradition where emulation is made following a biblical practice designating priests from the Levites, where Kohens are strictly the descendents of Aaron and not Moses, even if they are brothers. This is indicative that both schools Jaʿfari which halted to count and Ismaili continuing through the first son were influenced by Jewish converts, and were speaking to Jewish converts at that point in history.

    Jaʿfari attracted Metwali followers in Lebanon and Syria after the persecution of Mu’tazelah. Consequently, one can say that the theological school of the Jaʿfari courts recognized by the French Mandate and the institutional framework of its constitution, in addition to the framework of opposition produced by the entry of Musa al Sadr, cannot be considered continuity except from an Iranian Twelver Shiʿa theology. This division delineates an institutional antagonist division manifested inside Lebanon in the split between followers of Lebanese secular Shiʿa religious marjaʿ Sayyed Mohamed Hossein Fadlallah and followers of Iranian marjaʿ Ayatollah Khamenii.[12] Within the regulated field of discourse of Twelver Shiʿa one starts to find statements of regulation of Shiʿa taking as its strategy a form of historical intelligence to construct continuity to what are in essence discursive divisions. Objects of relations formulating continuity between Metwali and Twelver Shiʿa are made in the vernacular by the clergy in the Hossainiya. They are correlated with religious written texts, audio and video messages. They play the role of reworking and regrouping the relations made by statements to the discursive formation Metwali. Twelver Shiʿa discourse of regulation of militant identity is produced by Iranian theology taking its constituent point from the Iranian Revolution and associated knowledge production.


    [1] World War I Document Archives, “King-Crane Commission Report,” August 28, 1919, Population Estimates World War I Document Archive (Accessed on 7 August 2007); C.A. Macartney, National States and National Minorities (London: Russell & Russell, 1968), p. 541; Ussama Makdisi, The Culture of Sectarianism: Community History and Violence in Nineteenth Century Ottoman Lebanon (Berkeley: University of California Press, 2000), p. 23.
    [2] Firro, The Shiʿa pp. 536-538.
    [3] Firro, The Shiʿa, p. 535.

    [4] Weiss, pp. 46-49.
    [5] Khalaf, pp. 278-280.
    [6] Tucker, Mahdis and Millenarians, pp. 4-5, 128-129
    [7] Abou Al Hassan al Basari
    [8] Ghailan al Demashqi
    [9]Abdul Jawad Yassin, Al Sulta Fi al Islam: Naqd al Nazariyah al Syiassiah (Beirut: Al Tanouir, 2012), p. 175; Nasr Hamed Abou Zaid, Al Itijah Al ʿAkli Fi Al Tafsir ʿend Al Muʿtazelah (Beirut: Dar Al Tanwir lel Tibaʿa wal Nasher, 1983), pp. 18-25,28-32; Philip K. Hitti, Syria: a Short History ( New York: The Macmillan Company, 1959), pp. 113, 115; 129-130; Knut S. Vicor Between God and the Sultan, A History of Islamic Law (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2005), p.95.
    [10] Hamid Algar (trans.), Islam and Revolution: Writings and Declarations of Imam Khomeini, (Berkeley: Mizan Press Contemporary Islamic Thought, Persian Series, 1981), pp. 47-100.
    [11] Abi Al Fath el Shahrastani (d. 548 H,1154 A.D.), Al Millal wal Nihal (Beirut: Dar al Kutub al ʿlmiyah, 1992), pp. 38-40, 144-145, 166-167, 177-176, 199-200.
    [12] Hussein Dakroub, “Lebanon's Shiite Muslims split on feast ending fasting month of Ramadan,” World Wide Religious News, December 5, 2002, Lebanon's Shiite Muslims split on feast ending fasting month of Ramadan | WWRN - World-wide Religious News (Accessed September 10, 2017). MESS Report, “The Late Ayatollah Fadlallah Was an Islamist Cleric Unlike Any Other” July 5, 2010, Haaretz MESS Report / The late Ayatollah Fadlallah was an Islamist cleric unlike any other, (Accessed on September 21, 2017).
     
    manifesto

    manifesto

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    Lebanese dialect is originally Hebrew and not Syriac.
    Metwalis language was Hebrew at the dawn of Islam.
    Only Maronites spoke Syriac
    According to historians, Maronites were pagan locals who converted to Christianity when a disciple of St. Maron reached Lebanon.
    Why would Metwalis speak Hebrew and Maronites Syriac if both were native to this land?
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    Southern Lebanon was historically Jewish land also known as Northern Galilee. But indeed, Metwalis speaking Hebrew doesn't make sense, considering even at the time of Jesus the language was already dead, being used only liturgically among Rabbis. Western Aramaic was the common language of the Levant with pockets of Greek speaking communities on the coast until the Arab invasion.
    Indeed the Samaritans of the Gallillee as well as the Jews of Kufa spoke Hebrew at the dawn of Islam. It is not about what makes sense. It is about what is documented in the histeriography of the time. Aramaic and Hebrew speaking loyalists to the Mohamed and also to the Shi'a Arab were called Muwali/Metwali because they did not speak Arabic. They were not Arab. This is a historical fact.

    You can read about this in the history of Tabari 860 AD. I am sure he wrote what existed in his time. You can also read this in Al Jahez, he himself was a Metwali.

    Muwalis/Metwali are the group that translated all ancient philosophy into Arabic during the Abbaside Dynasty. They were also called the Mu'tazelah, which is a philosophical understanding of faith, which is inclusive of the Torah and the Quran. They were also called al mou'menoun.

    What Amal Movement started in Lebanon it was not called Islamic resistence. المقاومة الأسلامية. It was called المقاومة المؤمنة. This is because until that time Metwalies did not identify with Islam as the law of the Sultan and rejected the Hadith and the law of the Ottoman Sultan as well as the Seljuk Sultan. Mewtali were not recognized as Muslim by the Ottoman Empire. They were percieved as heretical.

    Only after the disappearance of Musa al-Sader, the assassination of the Metwali intellectuals like Mahdi Amel and others, who were communists that the concept of "Islamic" resistence emerged as a concept of identity.
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

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    Indeed the Samaritans of the Gallillee as well as the Jews of Kufa spoke Hebrew at the dawn of Islam. It is not about what makes sense. It is about what is documented in the histeriography of the time. Aramaic and Hebrew speaking loyalists to the Mohamed and also to the Shi'a Arab were called Muwali/Metwali because they did not speak Arabic. They were not Arab. This is a historical fact.

    You can read about this in the history of Tabari 860 AD. I am sure he wrote what existed in his time. You can also read this in Al Jahez, he himself was a Metwali.

    Muwalis/Metwali are the group that translated all ancient philosophy into Arabic during the Abbaside Dynasty. They were also called the Mu'tazelah, which is a philosophical understanding of faith, which is inclusive of the Torah and the Quran. They were also called al mou'menoun.

    What Amal Movement started in Lebanon it was not called Islamic resistence. المقاومة الأسلامية. It was called المقاومة المؤمنة. This is because until that time Metwalies did not identify with Islam as the law of the Sultan and rejected the Hadith and the law of the Ottoman Sultan as well as the Seljuk Sultan. Mewtali were not recognized as Muslim by the Ottoman Empire. They were percieved as heretical.

    Only after the disappearance of Musa al-Sader, the assassination of the Metwali intellectuals like Mahdi Amel and others, who were communists that the concept of "Islamic" resistence emerged as a concept of identity.
    You need to have your head checked.

    So Imam Musa al Sadr was a metwali Jew? Lol
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    You need to have your head checked.

    So Imam Musa al Sadr was a metwali Jew? Lol
    I did not say that he was a Metwali Jew. He was a Ja'fari Shi'a Arab.

    Mewtalis were of Hebrew origin does not mean they were Jews in 1920.

    You need to improve your reading and stop being aggressive.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    You need to have your head checked.

    So Imam Musa al Sadr was a metwali Jew? Lol
    مؤمن does not mean they were Jews. It means they believed Mohamed is a prophet from God and they followed the Quran as well.
     
    manifesto

    manifesto

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    مؤمن does not mean they were Jews. It means they believed Mohamed is a prophet from God and they followed the Quran as well.
    So modern Lebanese Shiites can trace their roots to either the Metwalis or Shia Arabs?
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

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    According to historians, Maronites were pagan locals who converted to Christianity when a disciple of St. Maron reached Lebanon.
    Why would Metwalis speak Hebrew and Maronites Syriac if both were native to this land?
    She's trying hard to be "Jewish".

    She actually thinks that would give credit to whatever she thinks she is and whatever her motives are. Far from it, this region has never been homogenous, whether religiously or ethnically or linguistically. I dont discount the fact that some who became metwalis or Shia in south Lebanon may have been previously Jewish...likewise in other communities you find families who were historically Jews.

    If there existed Jews in Medina who were known as "metwalis" and they were "Arab loyalists", that by no means imposes any historical obligation in ignoring the fact that the metwalis of south Lebanon are what we know as "Shia if Javal Amel". Some of them may have descended from Jews or Orthodox Christianity, and many if not most were pagan tribes known as " awameela" who peacefully embraced Shia Islam, not Sunni Islam that was spread by the sword of the Sunni caliphate.

    Our spoken language is different from what other Arabs speak and different from what the Arabians themselves speak because no one can doubt the fact that our ancestors or predecessors in this part of the world once spoke a different language (meaning not Arabic). Words like "juwwa" (inside) and "barra" (outside) are Syriac and we still use them today, regardless of sect or religion. We all speak the same language. These are words other Arabs dont know. I think we do have a different language, even though Mich influenced by Arabic. However, we either do shy away from that fact or we dont want to say it and the language remains an undeclared language because our written language officially used is written Arabic in its standard form.

    Additionally, we should not forget that Syriac/Aramaic/Hebrew have much in common with Arabic. These are all semitic languages. They have many similar characteristics and vowels and even share similar words or similar sounding words. This would definitely make our Syriac or Aramaic more diluted when Arabic prevailed. Unfortunately this sad reality when our language was diluted and Arabic became recognized as the standard is used by our Zionist enemies to discredit all of us as aliens from Arabia because our standard written language is Arabic. That is why even on this forum you find clowns supporting the Zionist Israeli apartheid entity claiming Palestinians (who are much like us Lebanese) in terms of origin, asking them to return to Arabia. While they forget that they recently brought their blonde hair and blue eyes from Europe and they dont belong to our region. Our foods are not their food and our dabkeh is not their dance and their culture dont belong here. They just practice a religion that has an origin here, and now all of them want to claim all of Palestine at the expense of everyone else who existed here centuries and centuries before and before them and before the origin even of the founders of Judaism.

    So we shouldn't really feel sad that Arabic is here dominating or our spoken language is seen as a dialect of Arabic. It is because semitic language, especially Aramaic and Arabic sound much alike.
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

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    مؤمن does not mean they were Jews. It means they believed Mohamed is a prophet from God and they followed the Quran as well.
    What's your point really? Mumin means "believer". My point is: were they (Shia) Muslims or not? A believer could be referring to anyone from any religion. You seem to be trying very hard to divorce the metwalis from Shia Islam. That is historically inaccurate. And I dont care if it is not written history. When you have millions of us still around and we are telling you what was passed down to us, I dont need any written document to prove to me what I am. Just like having a Lebanese passport or ID doesn't make me more or less a Lebanese. Calling me Chinese or even acquiring another citizenship won't stop me from being Lebanese. A Lebanese will always be Lebanese. Stop sounding silly and making a mockery out of yourself, please. Its for your sake and the image your imposing on others to see you with.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    So modern Lebanese Shiites can trace their roots to either the Metwalis or Shia Arabs?
    Yes,
    The Shi'a Arabs are the Musta'raba from Medina as well as Musta'raba from the Levant. The Musta'rab from the Levant are also the Amelah. The Metwali were native to Lebanon. They were approached to the alliance with Mohamed by Abou Dar al Ghafari a Musta'rab and a companion of the Prophet as the narrative goes.
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

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    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    All this thread deserves. Delusional lebs.

    I wonder how I can communicate with a Yemeni and a Moroccan back to back with almost no training in either dialects.
    I find it hard to understand what Egyptians speak with all their "ga" and "wahastini", talk less of a Moroccan. I cannot understand Moroccans. Funnily, they find it easier to understand how we speak. Yemenis, I can understand them very much. Only that their dialect is quite heavy. Their pronounce "qa" as "ga". "muqatil" can become "mugatil".

    Iraqis are another tough nut to crack. Many Lebanese Shia listen to their nadbiyyah (lamentations) during Ashurah. And I barely understand anything they are saying.
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

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    Yes,
    The Shi'a Arabs are the Musta'raba from Medina as well as Musta'raba from the Levant. The Musta'rab from the Levant are also the Amelah. The Metwali were native to Lebanon. They were approached to the alliance with Mohamed by Abou Dar al Ghafari a Musta'rab and a companion of the Prophet as the narrative goes.
    You sound like a witch or an oracle claiming knowledge of the unseen. From trying hard to divorce their Shia Metwalis of South Lebanon from Islam and giving them a Jewish and Hebrew mask, you're now bringing Abu Dharr al-Ghifari into this and retracting. You're just an educated clown. And unfortunately many Lebanese women who get some education misbehave like you do. Reinventing the wheel and forming class and understanding where there is thin air.

    Metwalis are Shia. You say no. That they are Hebrew and Jewish. Without telling us that some of them were or could have been Jews who became Shia.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    What's your point really? Mumin means "believer". My point is: were they (Shia) Muslims or not? A believer could be referring to anyone from any religion. You seem to be trying very hard to divorce the metwalis from Shia Islam. That is historically inaccurate. And I dont care if it is not written history. When you have millions of us still around and we are telling you what was passed down to us, I dont need any written document to prove to me what I am. Just like having a Lebanese passport or ID doesn't make me more or less a Lebanese. Calling me Chinese or even acquiring another citizenship won't stop me from being Lebanese. A Lebanese will always be Lebanese. Stop sounding silly and making a mockery out of yourself, please. Its for your sake and the image your imposing on others to see you with.
    Shi'a is a political and not a religious disigntation. It was given to those who allied with al Hussein against the Ummayad Dynasty. They were Southern Arabian Yemenites.

    Everyone in here believed in Mohamed being a Prophet, whether they were of Arab or non Arab origin.

    Shi'a as a religious identity is very modern and cannot be separated from Orientalism and imperialism.

    Yes I am separating Metwali from SHi'a Islam because Shi'a Islam is a modern concept of religious identity which is a confessional and sectarian identity. In its own historical context, Shi'a was a political opposition to the Ummayad Dynasty, it was not a confession or a religious sect.

    مؤمن does not mean believer. It means a person who has faith. Ali was أمير المؤمنيين and not أمير المسلميين and during the riegn of Ali there was no such a thing as Shi'a and Sunni. This you can read everywhere.
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

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    And I cannot really believe that we are actually spending time discussing the trash claim. Only to arrive at the point that Amelites called matwalis are actually Shia and and presently an Arabic speaking people in Lebanon. I was imagining there are some Metwalis in southern Lebanon villages who are actually Jews and Hebrew hiding in the tunnels Hezballah dug. I can't believe you're retracting and telling us they are Arab and Shi'a. When you're were so bent on divorcing them from Shia Islam and insisting on their Jewishness. If its simply about the historical fact or possibility that some southern Shia Lebanese metwalis descended from Jews, we know this. You are not telling us anything new or that we didn't know about. So why the twist?
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    You sound like a witch or an oracle claiming knowledge of the unseen. From trying hard to divorce their Shia Metwalis of South Lebanon from Islam and giving them a Jewish and Hebrew mask, you're now bringing Abu Dharr al-Ghifari into this and retracting. You're just an educated clown. And unfortunately many Lebanese women who get some education misbehave like you do. Reinventing the wheel and forming class and understanding where there is thin air.

    Metwalis are Shia. You say no. That they are Hebrew and Jewish. Without telling us that some of them were or could have been Jews who became Shia.
    Thanks for the comment but you need to work on your manners and also on the way you respond to posts.

    The Muwalis are non Arab converts is not what I am saying. Now you can choose to read outside your theological teachings of the mosque you grew up in, and you can choose to stick in the box you live in. But name calling does not make you right at all. It just makes you a disrespectful person.

    I have to go now.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    And I cannot really believe that we are actually spending time discussing the trash claim. Only to arrive at the point that Amelites called matwalis are actually Shia and and presently an Arabic speaking people in Lebanon. I was imagining there are some Metwalis in southern Lebanon villages who are actually Jews and Hebrew hiding in the tunnels Hezballah dug. I can't believe you're retracting and telling us they are Arab and Shi'a. When you're were so bent on divorcing them from Shia Islam and insisting on their Jewishness. If its simply about the historical fact or possibility that some southern Shia Lebanese metwalis descended from Jews, we know this. You are not telling us anything new or that we didn't know about. So why the twist?
    أقرأ was the first verse told to Mohamed in the Quran. But السفهاء will always speak with their own manners.
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

    Legendary Member
    Shi'a is a political and not a religious disigntation. It was given to those who allied with al Hussein against the Ummayad Dynasty. They were Southern Arabian Yemenites.

    Everyone in here believed in Mohamed being a Prophet, whether they were of Arab or non Arab origin.

    Shi'a as a religious identity is very modern and cannot be separated from Orientalism and imperialism.
    That is your opinion.

    Those who stood with Imam Hussein were not Yemenites.

    You're just throwing dust to confuse yourself.

    Yes I am separating Metwali from SHi'a Islam because Shi'a Islam is a modern concept of religious identity which is a confessional and sectarian identity. In its own historical context, Shi'a was a political opposition to the Ummayad Dynasty, it was not a confession or a religious sect.
    As much as Shia Islam was a political movement, it was also a religious movement from the onset. Some exclusively got attached to its political appeal and not the religious appeal. The political appeal being opposition to the Umayyads. Not all of Imam Ali's army or the early Shia of Ali were religiously following him. They were politically following him as the caliph too. Later on, the word "Shia" almost exclusively referred to those who follow the Imams religiously. The grey area is because Imam Ali was the first Imam of the Shia and the fourth caliph of the Sunnis. That is where an overlapping took place between the religious and the political. Otherwise, for a Shia, it is 100% religious identity.

    مؤمن does not mean believer. It means a person who has faith. Ali was أمير المؤمنيين and not أمير المسلميين and during the riegn of Ali there was no such a thing as Shi'a and Sunni. This you can read everywhere.
    So what is the the difference between "someone who has faith" and the word "believer"? Are you honestly, alright?
     
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    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

    Legendary Member
    Thanks for the comment but you need to work on your manners and also on the way you respond to posts.

    The Muwalis are non Arab converts is not what I am saying. Now you can choose to read outside your theological teachings of the mosque you grew up in, and you can choose to stick in the box you live in. But name calling does not make you right at all. It just makes you a disrespectful person.

    I have to go now.
    No, you don't have to go. Come back here and clear your garbage you're spilling on every thread that metwalis are Jews. You imagine your little brain to be the only thing that is open minded, enlightened and educated...thus you're trying to depict me as a person bred in the mosque and close minded (with no offense to those bred in mosques because they tend to be wiser than you are). Sorry, I didnt grow up in Lebanon and I rarely went to mosque where I live for the fact that mosques cannot be easily found around.

    Aside, what you're telling us isn't new as I have stated. That some Jews converted to Shia Islam in south Lebanon or could have. There are equally Lebanese Christians who may have Jewish descent. It adds no legitimacy to our presence in this part of the world, if that's what you are trying to claim. The Jews themselves weren't the first people in this region and were never descended from the heavens into the Levant. Our ancestors all came from some where else or all moved from one place to another within the wider region of the Middle East and over time adopted different cultures and languages and religious beliefs.

    Your repeated insistence that metwalis are Jews is sickening. It has been going on and on like someone with an agenda. Sorry, metwalis are not Jews and never will be Jews. If someone or few of our ancestors were, its in the past. And we care less to trace that. Except of course, you, our dear Lebanese Metwali Jew from Canada.

    Bye! Next hallucinative claim!!
     
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