Migrant caravan approaching the southern US borders

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  • Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Why do you mention that they are Catholic? What does Catholicism have to do with the drug cartels in South America?

    If anything, many priests and nuns were persecuted, over the years, for helping and standing by their people. Monsignor Romero was just made a Saint. He was shot while celebrating Mass, because he tirelessly defended his people against the Salvadoran regime..
    I purposely pointed this out to clarify to my Christian conservative friends that shithole countries are not just a monopoly for Islam. Kudos to the clergy who tried to help against the drug cartels, but let's not forget that these drug lords and all of their support are not Hindus or Bhuddists.


    What the puppet dictators did in South America was horrible.

    However, you have to put it in historical perspective (without excusing it). The U.S. was in a cold war against communism. Communism was taking over everywhere, from South America to Asia. It was a real threat.

    And, while the puppet regimes were evil, the socialist regimes would not have resulted in a better outcome for the people of South America.

    Look into what happened under every communist regime: tens of millions of deaths.

    Look at Venezuela today. They literally have no food. Their grocery stores are empty.

    Furthermore, the Americans' support of dictators, decades ago, does not excuse the current governments' inaptitude and their collusion with the drug cartels; nor, what the cartels are doing to their own people..
    You don't know for sure what would have happened. Let them be ruled by whomever they elect. Why meddle? Communism is a failure but so is American foreign policy. Not just a failure to those countries but also to the US.

    Ba3den the root cause argument works both ways. America's war against the drug cartels was and is a total failure. The only solution is to resolve the root cause: home-grown demand for drugs.


    Two wrongs don't make a right. And if you're going to operate by revenge then you can't place yourself on a moral pedestal..
    Is it so complicated, so difficult, so unbelievably out-of-this-world to allow countries their own freedom and sovereigty? Daroure el t7irkosh?


    This is not about Trump or the U.S. specifically. It is about a sinister and orchestrated agenda to topple the West through demographic warfare.
    Last I checked South Americans are mostly westerners. These people are running away from their homes because the gangs took over. And that happened because gangster-like leaders were artificially propped up in place of left-leaning ones they voted for. Wouldn't you do anything to protect your loved ones? Of course Trump will use this as a campaign boost in the mid-terms, he's that low (as are most US administrations).
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    I purposely pointed this out to clarify to my Christian conservative friends that shithole countries are not just a monopoly for Islam. Kudos to the clergy who tried to help against the drug cartels, but let's not forget that these drug lords and all of their support are not Hindus or Bhuddists.
    not sure why you are insisting on bringing religion into this. it does not matter whether these people are rich or poor, Catholics or protestants, atheists or theists, blacks or whites.

    we can discuss the unsubstantiated claims you have raised if you want, but the problematic here at hands is very different.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    not sure why you are insisting on bringing religion into this. it does not matter whether these people are rich or poor, Catholics or protestants, atheists or theists, blacks or whites.

    we can discuss the unsubstantiated claims you have raised if you want, but the problematic here at hands is very different.
    I am not bringing up religion from a theological point of view. I am bringing it up from a demographical point of view, which is very relevant to the topic at hand.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    I am not bringing up religion from a theological point of view. I am bringing it up from a demographical point of view, which is very relevant to the topic at hand.
    i do not think you can conclude anything meaningful from the religious data the way you are attempting to present it. besides, the countries relevant to caravan, mexico aside, are not catholics. catholics in central america constitute less than 45% of the general population. and countries like honduras where the caravan started is 30% atheist. these numbers can be thrown into any conclusion you want.

    this is not about demographics either. this is rather about what constitutes a failed state and what does not, and whether or not large scale migration benefits civilization or decimates it. the more important question being do you want to share in what other people have built or do you want to build something for your own? from a Christian perspective you are encouraged to share with others, but you are by far more encourage to build than to enjoy the fruits of the labor of others. no?

    and yes the USA is very guilty of never attempting to genuinely help its southern neighbors to establish better governments so that they as well can prosper in their home countries, this still doesn't mean people can form caravans and cross into other nations' whenever they want.
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    I agree with President Trump and President Obama 100%
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I purposely pointed this out to clarify to my Christian conservative friends that shithole countries are not just a monopoly for Islam. Kudos to the clergy who tried to help against the drug cartels, but let's not forget that these drug lords and all of their support are not Hindus or Bhuddists.
    Are you serious with this argument?

    The islamic governments making bad decisions are actually ruling according to islam.

    The South American governments making bad decisions are not ruling according to Christian doctrine.

    When a mob in an islamc country stones someone, who they believe acted against islamic rule, they are behaving according to islamic teachings.

    The drug cartels in South America are not behaving according to Christian teachings. They are doing the opposite!

    You don't know for sure what would have happened. Let them be ruled by whomever they elect. Why meddle? Communism is a failure but so is American foreign policy. Not just a failure to those countries but also to the US.
    I did not say that I support what the U.S. did. I merely placed your argument in historical context, to show that these countries were not dealing with a good option and a bad option (like some leftists claim); but, rather, two bad options.

    Ba3den the root cause argument works both ways. America's war against the drug cartels was and is a total failure. The only solution is to resolve the root cause: home-grown demand for drugs.
    Home-grown demand for drugs will not cease if people keep embracing a nihilistic, individualistic life with no higher purpose than the satisfaction of the ego.

    People need strong roots, strong families, strong communities, and a strong faith: everything that leftists and liberals hate.

    Is it so complicated, so difficult, so unbelievably out-of-this-world to allow countries their own freedom and sovereigty? Daroure el t7irkosh?
    I'm not sure how this answers my argument.

    You said the U.S. deserve a migrant crisis because of what they did in the past. I said that revenge is never the solution to the world's problems.

    What matters is not whether the U.S. deserves something or not. What matters is what the best course of action is, today, to ensure a better future for all.

    Last I checked South Americans are mostly westerners. These people are running away from their homes because the gangs took over. And that happened because gangster-like leaders were artificially propped up in place of left-leaning ones they voted for. Wouldn't you do anything to protect your loved ones? Of course Trump will use this as a campaign boost in the mid-terms, he's that low (as are most US administrations).
    Our feelings of compassion for people in need are natural and good. But that should not blind us to the sinister political games being played in their name.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Are you serious with this argument?

    The islamic governments making bad decisions are actually ruling according to islam.

    The South American governments making bad decisions are not ruling according to Christian doctrine.

    When a mob in an islamc country stones someone, who they believe acted against islamic rule, they are behaving according to islamic teachings.

    The drug cartels in South America are not behaving according to Christian teachings. They are doing the opposite!
    That's what most critics of Christianity always fail to notice!

    Christianity in its purest form = peaceful.
    Islam in its purest form = evil.

    Please @Indie don't judge us atheists based on the actions of a few. We're not necessarily anti-Christian. We just don't believe in the religion, although we respect the teaching of Jesus.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I agree with President Trump and President Obama 100%

    Actually contrary to popular belief, Obama had a very tough stance on illegal immigration!
    I don't know why the conservative media pictures him as an illegal alien-loving hippie.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    That's what most critics of Christianity always fail to notice!

    Christianity in its purest form = peaceful.
    Islam in its purest form = evil.

    Please @Indie don't judge us atheists based on the actions of a few. We're not necessarily anti-Christian. We just don't believe in the religion, although we respect the teaching of Jesus.
    Habibi enta :)

    I am not interested in judging anyone. I just want to help people think more deeply about the misconceptions they have.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    The first caravan was yes, when it comes to this one however there is no clear organizer at least according to news articles about it
    Hi Isabella. I expected to see you here defending the migrant caravan :p
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    Actually contrary to popular belief, Obama had a very tough stance on illegal immigration!
    I don't know why the conservative media pictures him as an illegal alien-loving hippie.
    Talking and doing are not one and the same and this is what makes Obama and Trump different.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    i do not think you can conclude anything meaningful from the religious data the way you are attempting to present it. besides, the countries relevant to caravan, mexico aside, are not catholics. catholics in central america constitute less than 45% of the general population. and countries like honduras where the caravan started is 30% atheist. these numbers can be thrown into any conclusion you want.
    The simples cobnclusion is thus: Failed states is not restiricted to Muslim-majority countries.

    this is not about demographics either. this is rather about what constitutes a failed state and what does not, and whether or not large scale migration benefits civilization or decimates it. the more important question being do you want to share in what other people have built or do you want to build something for your own? from a Christian perspective you are encouraged to share with others, but you are by far more encourage to build than to enjoy the fruits of the labor of others. no?

    and yes the USA is very guilty of never attempting to genuinely help its southern neighbors to establish better governments so that they as well can prosper in their home countries, this still doesn't mean people can form caravans and cross into other nations' whenever they want.
    Totally agree with the above.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Are you serious with this argument?

    The islamic governments making bad decisions are actually ruling according to islam.

    The South American governments making bad decisions are not ruling according to Christian doctrine.

    When a mob in an islamc country stones someone, who they believe acted against islamic rule, they are behaving according to islamic teachings.

    The drug cartels in South America are not behaving according to Christian teachings. They are doing the opposite!
    Again, where do I speak about scripture and theology? All I'm saying is that Christian-majority countries are also prone to being failed states. Andif you ask me whether I prefer to live in Honduras or Dubai, without hesitation I'd choose Dubai.


    I did not say that I support what the U.S. did. I merely placed your argument in historical context, to show that these countries were not dealing with a good option and a bad option (like some leftists claim); but, rather, two bad options.
    Who are you to judge "bad" option that people vote for? So what if they voted for Communism? Their "wrong" choice will backfire on them and the next elections they'll vote for someone else. I think this is a concept we Lebanese don't fully comprehend :lol:.

    Home-grown demand for drugs will not cease if people keep embracing a nihilistic, individualistic life with no higher purpose than the satisfaction of the ego.

    People need strong roots, strong families, strong communities, and a strong faith: everything that leftists and liberals hate.
    You have a very cartoony view of liberals. It would be like me calling conservatives ill-educated, marry their own cousins, and have a tendancy to send out pipe bombs via the mailman.

    I'm not sure how this answers my argument.

    You said the U.S. deserve a migrant crisis because of what they did in the past. I said that revenge is never the solution to the world's problems.

    What matters is not whether the U.S. deserves something or not. What matters is what the best course of action is, today, to ensure a better future for all.
    You think the migration crisis is an act of revenge?! This is a direct consequence of continuous American foreign policy. Nobody shits in his own pants to piss off his neighbor.

    Our feelings of compassion for people in need are natural and good. But that should not blind us to the sinister political games being played in their name.
    100% agreed.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    That's what most critics of Christianity always fail to notice!

    Christianity in its purest form = peaceful.
    Islam in its purest form = evil.

    Please @Indie don't judge us atheists based on the actions of a few. We're not necessarily anti-Christian. We just don't believe in the religion, although we respect the teaching of Jesus.
    I'm not sure you're familiar with my posts or my point of view on such issues.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    The simples cobnclusion is thus: Failed states is not restiricted to Muslim-majority countries.
    no one claimed that failed states are restricted to countries with islamic majority. the point is much more nuanced than "here, look this is a failed country with a Christian majority."

    for a state to succeed, and assuming we agree on the definition of that term, it should subscribe to a set of values most of which are Christian or inspired by Christianity.

    on the other hand, subscribing and applying islamic values in any country around the world is in and by itself enough to destroy that country and decimate its chances of success.
     
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