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New World Order

proIsrael-nonIsraeli

proIsrael-nonIsraeli

Legendary Member
I don't think you understand decetranlized cryptocurrency. Might be worth reading about it more.
The above IS NOT neccassery. Because the technology solves both problems and removes the Bank and the Money Transfer Agency.
The decentralized network is international and uncentralized. The bookkeeping and storage is among all the network nodes. The transfer is user-based and not orchestrated by banks or governments or controlled by them in any shape or form.
"The bookkeeping and storage is among all the network nodes" - can this system be corrupted (rhetorical question for there is no such system that cannot be corrupted)?

When system will get corrupted (for example using fraudulent transaction that will look legit) who will reimburse your loss then?
 
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  • Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "The bookkeeping and storage is among all the network nodes" - can this system be corrupted (rhetorical question for there is no such system that cannot be corrupted)?

    When system will get corrupted (for example using fraudulent transaction that will look legit) who will reimburse your loss then?
    Hmm well, all nodes sync together in an encrypted record shared among the nodes. If one is corrupt, the others will reveal it. It's very reliable in this regard and has been for many years now even with major hackers trying to break it (remember that it holds around 280 billion dollars of wealth).

    HOWEVER, it has other problems. Such as a 51% attack where half the nodes can take over the network (but some cryptocurrencies have figured out reliable solutions for that). It also has a scaling problem (if it were to become mainstream money) which no crypto has really solved so far, but there's promising solutions (e.g network sharding and staking by node) that will be tested by end of 2020 by major players.
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Fraudulent transactions never can happen, actually. Which is why the Feds want it.

    But in case of robbery, the crypto currency could actually do a rollback and eliminate the stolen money from existence.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Fraudulent transactions never can happen, actually. Which is why the Feds want it.

    But in case of robbery, the crypto currency could actually do a rollback and eliminate the stolen money from existence.
    Invest your money with me. Better than crypto currency.
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    Hmm well, all nodes sync together in an encrypted record shared among the nodes. If one is corrupt, the others will reveal it. It's very reliable in this regard and has been for many years now even with major hackers trying to break it (remember that it holds around 280 billion dollars of wealth).

    HOWEVER, it has other problems. Such as a 51% attack where half the nodes can take over the network (but some cryptocurrencies have figured out reliable solutions for that). It also has a scaling problem (if it were to become mainstream money) which no crypto has really solved so far, but there's promising solutions (e.g network sharding and staking by node) that will be tested by end of 2020 by major players.
    I did not ask "what is record got corrupted", I asked "what if system got corrupted" and in next sentence I addressed typical was the system can get corrupted.

    Perhaps it is my fault in using "corrupted" instead of "compromised".
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I did not ask "what is record got corrupted", I asked "what if system got corrupted" and in next sentence I addressed typical was the system can get corrupted.

    Perhaps it is my fault in using "corrupted" instead of "compromised".
    It can be compromised through a 51% attack that could change the network. But there's solutions to this problem.

    There is no FDIC in cryptocurrency system - you are on you own.
    Besides, FDIC does not cover fraud cases, only back collapse cases.
    Cryptocurrency can be "rolled back". So any stolen money can be retrieved. This happened in Ethereum after a robbery which lead to a fork: Those who agreed with the rollback are under Ethereum and those who refused are under Ethereum classic (but it's worth little).
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    It can be compromised through a 51% attack that could change the network. But there's solutions to this problem.

    Cryptocurrency can be "rolled back". So any stolen money can be retrieved. This happened in Ethereum after a robbery which lead to a fork: Those who agreed with the rollback are under Ethereum and those who refused are under Ethereum classic (but it's worth little).
    "Cryptocurrency can be "rolled back"." - technically it can be easily done, but it cannot defend against fraudulent transaction that cannot be proven fraudulent.

    If I will hack your terminal and will post fraudulent transaction in your name how do you rollback from this?
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "Cryptocurrency can be "rolled back"." - technically it can be easily done, but it cannot defend against fraudulent transaction that cannot be proven fraudulent.

    If I will hack your terminal and will post fraudulent transaction in your name how do you rollback from this?
    You can hack my terminal and change the "encrypted document" carried by my node (probably, your chances are slim doing that), but then there's another node involved in the transaction (which you would need to hack at the same time) and 10 million other node in sync you need to hack at the same time as they can notice your difference (given your transaction was not natural and it didn't go through other nodes for validation and confirmation)... If you did not manage to hack those, the network would know it's a fraud through it's continuous syncing and never incorporate your transaction into the "one source of truth" or encrypted history of transactions. And this technology is worth around 300 billion dollars of money. So good luck if you can fool it.

    Edit: Also the network knows the number of coins / tokens held by each node and visible to the public. So a fake transaction is impossible and easily traceable. But robberies can happen if someone has access to a wallet and sends money from it.
     
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    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    You can hack my terminal and change the "encrypted document" carried by my node (probably, your chances are slim doing that), but then there's another node involved in the transaction (which you would need to hack at the same time) and 10 million other node in sync you need to hack at the same time as they can notice your difference (given your transaction was not natural and it didn't go through other nodes for validation and confirmation)... If you did not manage to hack those, the network would know it's a fraud through it's continuous syncing and never incorporate your transaction into the "one source of truth" or encrypted history of transactions. And this technology is worth around 300 billion dollars of money. So good luck if you can fool it.

    Edit: Also the network knows the number of coins / tokens held by each node and visible to the public. So a fake transaction is impossible and easily traceable. But robberies can happen if someone has access to a wallet and sends money from it.
    "You can hack my terminal and change the "encrypted document" carried by my node (probably, your chances are slim doing that), but then there's another node involved in the transaction"

    No, it is not what I'am talking about. Here is more to the point example:
    I transferred your assets to account that is not yours.
    Transaction originated from your terminal and to the system transaction looks completely legit.
    How will you prove that it wasn't you?
    How will you convince the system that rollback is necessary?
     
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    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "You can hack my terminal and change the "encrypted document" carried by my node (probably, your chances are slim doing that), but then there's another node involved in the transaction"

    No, it is not what I'am talking about. Here is more to the point example:
    I transferred your assets to account that is not yours.
    Transaction originated from your terminal and to the system transaction looks completely legit.
    How will you prove that it wasn't you?
    How will you convince the system that rollback is necessary?
    Then it falls under a robbery. It would require a police investigation that ensures you've been robbed. But transaction history is public and so it's not very difficult to show that your assets were moved to a new account without any exchange of a service from the owner of that node (can be reverse traced in most cryptos as they're not fully anonymous). It has been done before when an exchange wallet account was hacked.

    The same problem would be found in current payment services such as Cash, Visa, Paypal and Giftcards. So I don't think it's newly introduced or central to the technology. You would always require investigation to dispute charges or return funds.

    This is only a big problem in fully anonymous cryptocurrencies (e.g Monero, as they do coin-shifting) or those that refuse rollbacks (and there's a few). There's also bitcoin-asking hijackers who use "shapeshifter" to convert coins and assume the money stolen is not serious enough to warrant investigation and a thorough reverse traceability.
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    Then it falls under a robbery. It would require a police investigation that ensures you've been robbed. But transaction history is public and so it's not very difficult to show that your assets were moved to a new account without any exchange of a service from the owner of that node (can be reverse traced in most cryptos as they're not fully anonymous). It has been done before when an exchange wallet account was hacked.

    The same problem would be found in current payment services such as Cash, Visa, Paypal and Giftcards. So I don't think it's newly introduced or central to the technology. You would always require investigation to dispute charges or return funds.

    This is only a big problem in fully anonymous cryptocurrencies (e.g Monero, as they do coin-shifting) or those that refuse rollbacks (and there's a few). There's also bitcoin-asking hijackers who use "shapeshifter" to convert coins and assume the money stolen is not serious enough to warrant investigation and a thorough reverse traceability.
    "But transaction history is public and so it's not very difficult to show that your assets were moved to a new account without any exchange of a service from the owner of that node"

    Fund transfer does not require "exchange of a service" - I can simply state that you gifted everything to me and now you decided to change your mind.
    --

    "Then it falls under a robbery. It would require a police investigation that ensures you've been robbed."

    OK, assuming you have involved police, investigation has been concluded and has proved to be inconclusive on the subject of robbery.
    More over now you are under suspicion of making fraudulent claims of robbery.
    How does your system help you recover now?

    -

    "There's also bitcoin-asking hijackers who use "shapeshifter" to convert"

    It only proves what I said - each and every system can be compromised and you need the way for this system to make you whole again.

    With independent currency systems you are on your own.
    It does not mean that it should not exist or you should not use it.
    However, by no means it will never be the only way to pay, government controlled/regulated institutions will remain.
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "But transaction history is public and so it's not very difficult to show that your assets were moved to a new account without any exchange of a service from the owner of that node"

    Fund transfer does not require "exchange of a service" - I can simply state that you gifted everything to me and now you decided to change your mind.
    --

    "Then it falls under a robbery. It would require a police investigation that ensures you've been robbed."

    OK, assuming you have involved police, investigation has been concluded and has proved to be inconclusive on the subject of robbery.
    More over now you are under suspicion of making fraudulent claims of robbery.
    How does your system help you recover now?

    -

    "There's also bitcoin-asking hijackers who use "shapeshifter" to convert"

    It only proves what I said - each and every system can be compromised and you need the way for this system to make you whole again.

    With independent currency systems you are on your own.
    It does not mean that it should not exist or you should not use it.
    However, by no means it will never be the only way to pay, government controlled/regulated institutions will remain.
    The short answer is that the system is not meant to prevent robberies. So the system isn't compromized here by any stretch of imagination.
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    The short answer is that the system is not meant to prevent robberies. So the system isn't compromized here by any stretch of imagination.
    If system is not meant to prevent robberies, then it's not reliable system regardless of whether yo consider robbery a compromise of the system or not.
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    If system is not meant to prevent robberies, then it's not reliable system regardless of whether yo consider robbery a compromise of the system or not.
    That's like saying debit cards / credit cards are not a reliable system because they could be taken from you and used to withdraw money at gun point. Basically everything you use has that problem as someone with a gun could make you use it like he wants to and get away with it. So this is divulging into a meaningless point.

    The blockchain technology was designed to eliminate centralization and be a safe store of value in the cloud. And it does satisfy those conditions despite what would happen if someone is pointing a gun to my head.
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    That's like saying debit cards / credit cards are not a reliable system because they could be taken from you and used to withdraw money at gun point. Basically everything you use has that problem as someone with a gun could make you use it like he wants to and get away with it. So this is divulging into a meaningless point.

    The blockchain technology was designed to eliminate centralization and be a safe store of value in the cloud. And it does satisfy those conditions despite what would happen if someone is pointing a gun to my head.
    "That's like saying debit cards / credit cards are not a reliable system because they could be taken from you and used to withdraw money at gun point."

    First, there are cameras to prove that you are being robbed.
    Second, when cameras fail you need to know this:
    - - - Do not resist, log into machine, BUT ENTER YOUR PASSWORD IN REVERSE.
    - - - Machine will let you in and will dispense money too, but it will also silently alarm the police.
    Third, regardless of whether robbers will be able to get away with your money or not your account will be reimbursed 100%.
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "That's like saying debit cards / credit cards are not a reliable system because they could be taken from you and used to withdraw money at gun point."

    First, there are cameras to prove that you are being robbed.
    Second, when cameras fail you need to know this:
    - - - Do not resist, log into machine, BUT ENTER YOUR PASSWORD IN REVERSE.
    - - - Machine will let you in and will dispense money too, but it will also silently alarm the police.
    Third, regardless of whether robbers will be able to get away with your money or not your account will be reimbursed 100%.
    This is a silly response.

    If the reliability of your system is because of cameras and police, I can do the same to my home residence and set cameras and alarms. I could also ensure my crypto wallet is physical and detached from the Internet for any remote access to work and also with a reverse pin.

    In your case, I can kidnap your kid and send you to the bank to get me money and make sure you don't have contact with the police or else your kid gets the bullet.
    And you would not know my identity as I would be masked and have a voice changer . And I will make you go through many tests to ensure you don't have the police knowing when I hand you the kid after weeks of baits and switches.

    Most crimes go unsolved anyway. So the reliability you speak about because you have cameras is ridiculous. Many atms in Canada don't have cameras or the camera wouldn't do a thing because the robber is either masked or not present there at the ATM. And it could have been staged if he is known.

    But we don't realistically use those "crimes" as proof the system is not reliable. But use it across the world.
     
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