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France Notre Dame De Paris Cathedral Burning

joseph_lubnan

Legendary Member
I was reading many comment online that express shock on how 1billion € was raised for Notre Dame in a matter of few days while there are people who have hard time reaching the end of the month.
This makes sense on the surface but when you go into details it starts to make less sense.
For sure there should be a way to help poor people in dire conditions.
But in a country like France many people pay high taxes for the government which in part goes to help those in need.
So the rest of the money of those people are their own property and they are free to use it the way they like, this is what is related to personal freedom that everyone and is guaranteed by the constitution.

Now for the most important part.
According to 2015 data(L'impôt en chiffres.)
there are in France 34millions taxable households, only 17millions pay taxes.
So let's say among these 17millions who do not pay taxes, 5millions are really in need.
The one time 1billion € over 5millions gives 200€ for each, which is really peanuts and won't help them more than few days, and then what ??
So the solution is not by taking this 1billion and distribute it to those in need, but to work on the economy in a way to allow those people to have real jobs that will help them support themselves on the long run.

Ok, so what if you took the 1 Billion and created a training centers, rehabilitation centers, food banks, child care and wellbeing centers, support centers? for example. Would that not provide help and support? This is a more appropriate example than the one you provided and is a better contrast between spending this 1 billion to renovate a relic, versus improving lives. So the argument does have legs.

I personally think that people should be able to chose what they do with their money, so I am 100% ok with donating 10 Billions to Notre Dame.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I know that form follows function, but form is still part of that sentence :p

Why do I have a feeling you're an architect, Indie?
You've always been very interested in the subject judging by your threads.

My other guess is something that has to do with humanities (anthropology, sociology..etc) because you have an academic style of writing.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Ok, so what if you took the 1 Billion and created a training centers, rehabilitation centers, food banks, child care and wellbeing centers, support centers? for example. Would that not provide help and support? This is a more appropriate example than the one provided and is a better contrast between spending this 1 billion to renovate a relic, versus improving lives.

I agree. Although Notre Dame is easily my favorite building in the world, I think it should be left in ruins. It's more authentic.
Also, I'm sure the new design will pale in comparison to the original structure. The reconstruction proposals I've seen so far are disastrous.

But on the other hand, I'm sure the billionaires who donated to rebuild Notre Dame are also donating to NGOs.
So I don't think this would obstruct their charity work.

Billionaires can help the poor, but they can't eradicate poverty.
 

joseph_lubnan

Legendary Member
I agree. Although Notre Dame is easily my favorite building in the world, I think it should be left in ruins. It's more authentic.
Also, I'm sure the new design will pale in comparison to the original structure. The reconstruction proposals I've seen so far are disastrous.

But on the other hand, I'm sure the billionaires who donated to rebuild Notre Dame are also donating to NGOs.
So I don't think this would obstruct their charity work.

Billionaires can help the poor, but they can't eradicate poverty.

Society should be able to do a few things simultaneously :)

France however is a very mismanaged country, and if it does not work on itself it is heading to a disaster.
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Ok, so what if you took the 1 Billion and created a training centers, rehabilitation centers, food banks, child care and wellbeing centers, support centers? for example. Would that not provide help and support? This is a more appropriate example than the one you provided and is a better contrast between spending this 1 billion to renovate a relic, versus improving lives. So the argument does have legs.

I personally think that people should be able to chose what they do with their money, so I am 100% ok with donating 10 Billions to Notre Dame.

well every single suggestion of those you evoked exist in France and they are publicly or privately funded.
My neighbor works in a state backed training centers targeting teenagers who are failing school, there are also food banks that make campaigns several times a year, they go to large supermarkets and people buy stuff and give it to them, in Paris there are the HLM, anyone with not enough income can go to the cityhall and apply and get an apartment for "almost" free rent, this has a huge impact on middle class because the company who has to give up part of its building to the HLM will have to catch up the loss (or the manque à gagner) by raising the prices on the other apartments sold to the middle class. In health care, despite state and private insurance, I still have to pay for part of my helathcare in PUBLIC hospitals, while people with low income don't pay a dime. Daycare fees are proportional to your income, it might be sound surprising to many, but when you apply you need to show your tax declaration and based on that you pay....
The "chomage" hadth wala 7araj, it is like Ali Baba, abuse of all sorts, the state is paying people who can work but don't want to...

There are plenty of other examples...so there is no shortage of help...
Once I met a Lebanese guy in a parc he works as a barber in a barbershop, during the discussion he told me he is getting lots of help from the state and he used the following sentence that I won't forget "ba3d na2es yejo y7otolna el akel b temna!!", while I was struggling with my taxes and my apartment despite I earn more than him.
It is well known in France that the 2 classes are living happily: the poor and the rich, those who are struggling are the middle class.

Despite all of this help many people are not happy and still demand, and let's face it, many don't want to do any effort to change their situation.
They prefer go rob shops during the Gilets Jaunes demonstrations instead of going to schools or training centers to hope getting a better future.

As a french guy once told me, pointing his anger towards the immigrants kids, he said "wtf, the education is free, this is an opportunity that you can't have it many places abroad, take it and build a future for yourself instead of growing to be wrongdoer"

This is in general.

As for Notre Dame, this restoration project will certainly create jobs for people who are willing to work, it might be a niche, but nevertheless it will provide jobs.
 
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proIsrael-nonIsraeli

Legendary Member
Ok, so what if you took the 1 Billion and created a training centers, rehabilitation centers, food banks, child care and wellbeing centers, support centers? for example. Would that not provide help and support? This is a more appropriate example than the one you provided and is a better contrast between spending this 1 billion to renovate a relic, versus improving lives. So the argument does have legs.

I personally think that people should be able to chose what they do with their money, so I am 100% ok with donating 10 Billions to Notre Dame.

I prefer not to dictate to people what they should do with their money and expect the same for myself.

@JustLeb
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
both, it is a mess :)

It's the 7th largest economy in the world. Ranked 8 out of 177 countries in terms of human development, and 25 out 108 counrries when it comes to quality of life.

If that makes France a mess, what would it make the rest of the world?
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I prefer not to dictate to people what they should do with their money and expect the same for myself.

@JustLeb

Agreed. If one has earned his fortune through legitimate means, it'd be nice of him to help the less privileged, but, also, he should not be made feel guilty for buying a Rolex or restoring a cathedral.
He didn't cause the poverty in the first place.

This is especially true in socialist countries where you're already helping the poor by paying a proportional income tax.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Why do I have a feeling you're an architect, Indie?
You've always been very interested in the subject judging by your threads.

My other guess is something that has to do with humanities (anthropology, sociology..etc) because you have an academic style of writing.

You are close on both counts ;)
That's all I will say :p
 

fidelio

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I know that form follows function, but form is still part of that sentence :p
Not only function. Form follows whatever the designer intends it to follow, and it's the designer's responsibility to justify the adopted choices.
Of course all this depends on the type of building, the context, the budget and a dozen other constraints, but the design choices should always be justified, whether to the public, the client, the adjacent community or the art critics if the intention is to create an icon.

Take for example the restoration of the spire in Notre Dame; it's two completely different approaches that are presented today. Either create something that represents our contemporary building techniques, or restore the spire to its original design with originally used materials, all with the help of local artisans and builders who still possess the craft needed for that job.
Either direction is defendable and justified in its own right, even though they are completely opposite.
 
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