Oct17 election plans

mike89

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
They were never going to be any different... people had a moment of clarity but now it is long gone as the got polarized again and prefer to live in shit as long as their lord is winning... Some parties/groups are trying to get organized but i do not see much traction around them. hope im wrong.
🤷‍♂️ La 7awla wa la kouwwata
 

Danny Z

Legendary Member
I don't think elections will change anything, the people in power fassalou the elections in a way that they can't loose with the nisbiyye. I don't think any other new parties can also breakthrough in more than one sect, ya3ni trying and thinking a party can appeal to everybody across all sects and win elections on a sectarian base in every districts does not work at this point as people vote their sects because they are afraid from the other sect, and none will leave that protection to go vote for a secular party even if they are not eating or earning a decent salary. Also people do not trust that any elected people can change the entrenched corruption so they confine in their sects and services given by the leaders of their sects, basically corruption needs corrupted and the corrupted are the ones voting...
A democratic solution does not work... who says democracy is for those who do not believe in it.
 

mike89

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
I don't think elections will change anything, the people in power fassalou the elections in a way that they can't loose with the nisbiyye. I don't think any other new parties can also breakthrough in more than one sect, ya3ni trying and thinking a party can appeal to everybody across all sects and win elections on a sectarian base in every districts does not work at this point as people vote their sects because they are afraid from the other sect, and none will leave that protection to go vote for a secular party even if they are not eating or earning a decent salary. Also people do not trust that any elected people can change the entrenched corruption so they confine in their sects and services given by the leaders of their sects, basically corruption needs corrupted and the corrupted are the ones voting...
A democratic solution does not work... who says democracy is for those who do not believe in it.
The deadlock should be broken somewhere. Just vote for a new party and see what happens. If everyone does it like that, everyone wins.
Kinda like game theory maybe?
 

Danny Z

Legendary Member
The deadlock should be broken somewhere. Just vote for a new party and see what happens. If everyone does it like that, everyone wins.
Kinda like game theory maybe?
I don't think you understood what I said, Democracy is not for Lebanon, people should graduate into democracy, you cannot impose democracy on them when they do not believe in the values of democracy. Democracy is when everybody believe in respecting and giving rights to the others and accept the decision of the people as they have decided that violence is not the solution, that's how functioning democracies have been built for centuries they graduated into this decision after learning that fights and wars do nothing but kill people and then you still have differences so they decided to fix it with democracies. In Lebanon people still believe in violence and solving their problems by force and they do not accept the other they use democracies as a means to take the rights of others and squash them rather than give them a voice... Example hariri will run chrisitians on his list just to claim he is democratic while the mere fact there are christians MPs is exactly because Christians and Muslims one day decided that each should have his own representation and one you come and tell Hariri and his supporters that their answer is that hey they are playing by the rules, it is not illegal to do that... True it is not but the spirit of this democracy is not respected. This is a mere example but it is just to show that people do not believe in Democracy, it is just another means for them to try to circumvert law and order to stay in Power. What applies to Hariri and his supporters apply to HA but with a prism, HA has a doctrine includes wepons and use force by definition and birth of the party, there is a difference though, while Hariri thinks he owns the state, HA have little respect for the state, example they imported diesel on the side, when they could have done it with the state. Still the party will get overwhelming support and votes as people view it as an alternative to a non functioning state. As for FPM, it was a functioning party with Aoun, since Bassil took over it is a ghost of a party now, Aoun is old and waning, he is not the man he used to be, and Bassil is nowhere near democratic, fassaloulou the election law so he can get elected in Batroun and he took over the party in a Stallinist way through purges and lack of election. I doubt he believes in Democracy... And geagea bala ma ne7ki, they guy took over his party with assassination and body liquidation purges, his supporters belive violence is the only way. They have little understanding of democracy let alone understanding of anything besides violence, kind of the christian Taliban.
Lebanon was never a democracy anyway, go back in history there was a civil war in 1958, that most people forgot. The reasons this war took place are still present today...
 

mike89

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
I don't think you understood what I said, Democracy is not for Lebanon, people should graduate into democracy, you cannot impose democracy on them when they do not believe in the values of democracy. Democracy is when everybody believe in respecting and giving rights to the others and accept the decision of the people as they have decided that violence is not the solution, that's how functioning democracies have been built for centuries they graduated into this decision after learning that fights and wars do nothing but kill people and then you still have differences so they decided to fix it with democracies. In Lebanon people still believe in violence and solving their problems by force and they do not accept the other they use democracies as a means to take the rights of others and squash them rather than give them a voice... Example hariri will run chrisitians on his list just to claim he is democratic while the mere fact there are christians MPs is exactly because Christians and Muslims one day decided that each should have his own representation and one you come and tell Hariri and his supporters that their answer is that hey they are playing by the rules, it is not illegal to do that... True it is not but the spirit of this democracy is not respected. This is a mere example but it is just to show that people do not believe in Democracy, it is just another means for them to try to circumvert law and order to stay in Power. What applies to Hariri and his supporters apply to HA but with a prism, HA has a doctrine includes wepons and use force by definition and birth of the party, there is a difference though, while Hariri thinks he owns the state, HA have little respect for the state, example they imported diesel on the side, when they could have done it with the state. Still the party will get overwhelming support and votes as people view it as an alternative to a non functioning state. As for FPM, it was a functioning party with Aoun, since Bassil took over it is a ghost of a party now, Aoun is old and waning, he is not the man he used to be, and Bassil is nowhere near democratic, fassaloulou the election law so he can get elected in Batroun and he took over the party in a Stallinist way through purges and lack of election. I doubt he believes in Democracy... And geagea bala ma ne7ki, they guy took over his party with assassination and body liquidation purges, his supporters belive violence is the only way. They have little understanding of democracy let alone understanding of anything besides violence, kind of the christian Taliban.
Lebanon was never a democracy anyway, go back in history there was a civil war in 1958, that most people forgot. The reasons this war took place are still present today...
You have a point.
Dont you think the best way of making the first step towards the democracy you describe is to act democratic and vote outside the box. Ergo, start by yourself and lead by example? If this is not viable, what is the alternative you suggest. Since reverting to the default is a self fulfilling prophecy.
 

Danny Z

Legendary Member
You have a point.
Dont you think the best way of making the first step towards the democracy you describe is to act democratic and vote outside the box. Ergo, start by yourself and lead by example? If this is not viable, what is the alternative you suggest. Since reverting to the default is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Alternatives do not have to be democracies, China is not a democracy yet is flourishing. Kazakhstan, Gulf states, Russia show that democracy is not the only path to prosperity. These countries do make a strong case against Democracy, I am not saying this is the path Lebanon should take, but it is wrong to think that only Democracy solves countries problems. Sometimes Autocracy works better when the feeling of Democracy is not present in the minds of the citizens. Even the US today is loosing the feel of democracy, when politicians use democracy just to get elected and forget the essence of it, democracy fails its purpose. Lebanon is not ready for a democracy. Shoving down the throat of Lebanese and thinking they will make good us of it is overrated. Better shove autocracy on them and make them conform to law and order might be a better solution. Take Lybia as an example, it was autocratic and Kadhafi was an asshole and a crazy man, a crazy lunatic, but the country was stable and prosperous, they removed and place a "democracy" in his place. The country is lawless I bet you cannot name the president or prime minister in Libya without googling it.

Bottom line, we are wasting time with elections, what you are advocating now, we advocated it 20 years ago,, we said vote for FPM change will come, they were the secular party different from those in power, they couldn't get elected they had to carry the Christian flag to get more votes... They decided to make alliances to get elected and these alliances made them part of the game and now they are like all other parties...
Deja vu, 7aj day3ou wa2et, admit it is a failed state, if you want to live in democracy, move to one where people believe in democracy.
 
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mike89

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
Alternatives do not have to be democracies, China is not a democracy yet is flourishing. Kazakhstan, Gulf states, Russia show that democracy is not the only path to prosperity. These countries do make a strong case against Democracy, I am not saying this is the path Lebanon should take, but it is wrong to think that only Democracy solves countries problems. Sometimes Autocracy works better when the feeling of Democracy is not present in the minds of the citizens. Even the US today is loosing the feel of democracy, when politicians use democracy just to get elected and forget the essence of it, democracy fails its purpose. Lebanon is not ready for a democracy. Shoving down the throat of Lebanese and thinking they will make good us of it is overrated. Better shove autocracy on them and make them conform to law and order might be a better solution. Take Lybia as an example, it was autocratic and Kadhafi was an asshole and a crazy man, a crazy lunatic, but the country was stable and prosperous, they removed and place a "democracy" in his place. The country is lawless I bet you cannot name the president or prime minister in Libya without googling it.

Bottom line, we are wasting time with elections, what you are advocating now, we advocated it 20 years ago,, we said vote for FPM change will come, they were the secular party different from those in power, they couldn't get elected they had to carry the Christian flag to get more votes... They decided to make alliances to get elected and these alliances made them part of the game and now they are like all other parties...
Deja vu, 7aj day3ou wa2et, admit it is a failed state, if you want to live in democracy, move to one where people believe in democracy.
Thanks for sharing your view.

Basically, reverting back to the root cause of it, the people themselves, one should advocate for better education, belief in citizenship, and so on. A good way to establish a ground stone and advertise for it, is a good working party in parliament and ultimately in government.
Wouldn't that be a good first step to show peeps, which values are key?
What you explained about 20 years ago, without the bad stuff (Christian flag, become part of the game, etc)

Giving up hope and settling for autocracy or cleptocracy or whatever isn't really working out that great, as we can see.
 

Ashrafieh LF

New Member
Thanks for sharing your view.

Basically, reverting back to the root cause of it, the people themselves, one should advocate for better education, belief in citizenship, and so on. A good way to establish a ground stone and advertise for it, is a good working party in parliament and ultimately in government.
Wouldn't that be a good first step to show peeps, which values are key?
What you explained about 20 years ago, without the bad stuff (Christian flag, become part of the game, etc)

Giving up hope and settling for autocracy or cleptocracy or whatever isn't really working out that great, as we can see.
As Churchill once said "the best case against democracy is a 5-minute conversation with the average voter"!
 
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