October 17 Revolution [Breaking: subsidies lifted - implosion next?]

What do you think will happen next, after Hariri's resignation?

  • Stalemate - No govt will be formed

    Votes: 44 51.8%
  • New mini-government of specialists will be formed in less than 10 days

    Votes: 21 24.7%
  • Similar government with Hariri PM again

    Votes: 15 17.6%
  • Civil War

    Votes: 25 29.4%

  • Total voters
    85

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
It’s funny what money can do.. he would have definitely dealt with the news of importing diesel in a much different way. Now he is on Bahaas payroll 😂
Dude the problem is that you are focusing on a narrow point related to your political affiliation. The idea is not here, the idea is that the whole country is in peril due to bad and catastrophic policy.
When SHN promised corruption fighting, I thought that if there is someone who should be trusted it would be him.
However the result is disappointing to say the least.
Yet you and others rush to justify your leaders no matter what. I might understand that from fer2et El za2ifeh living in Lebanon, waiting for Berri to appoint them in majles al janoub or Bassil to put them in sherket El may aw El kahraba. But I don't understand it from someone living in Germany and experiencing German democracy.
You are in Germany and I am in France, others in UK Canada, USA... Not for leasure but because our country sucks due to corrupt politicians. My father died, as well as my mother in law while we were not next to them, it was not a choice but we were forced to leave for better life for us and our children.
Still you and others revolt when someone criticise your leaders...
The bottom line is that no leader in Lebanon wants a strong state, because he won't have followers depending on him...
 

elAshtar

Legendary Member
Dude the problem is that you are focusing on a narrow point related to your political affiliation. The idea is not here, the idea is that the whole country is in peril due to bad and catastrophic policy.
When SHN promised corruption fighting, I thought that if there is someone who should be trusted it would be him.
However the result is disappointing to say the least.
Yet you and others rush to justify your leaders no matter what. I might understand that from fer2et El za2ifeh living in Lebanon, waiting for Berri to appoint them in majles al janoub or Bassil to put them in sherket El may aw El kahraba. But I don't understand it from someone living in Germany and experiencing German democracy.
You are in Germany and I am in France, others in UK Canada, USA... Not for leasure but because our country sucks due to corrupt politicians. My father died, as well as my mother in law while we were not next to them, it was not a choice but we were forced to leave for better life for us and our children.
Still you and others revolt when someone criticise your leaders...
The bottom line is that no leader in Lebanon wants a strong state, because he won't have followers depending on him...
My comment wasn’t related to the general politics in the country. I am not narrow minded. It was just a side remark.
I left Lebanon when HA couldn’t protect judge Mohammad Mazen. You confuse HA strength as a regional player with its strength in internal politics.
when you want to go through the state institutions and the democratic means to fight corruption, HA can do nothing.
HA did submit documents that incriminate Sanioura to Ali Ibrahim. Once Saniora was at Ali Ibrahim’s office, he showed him documents that incriminate Berri—> case closed.
Here is some points that you should know about HA:
1- HA was against Taef and called for a secular non confessional political system in 1990s. I can send you a speech of Sayyed Abbass Mousawi on the matter. Sayyed Abbass was the former Secretary General. He clearly said that a confessional system will lead to nothing but corruption and that ppl should be treated as citizens regardless of their sectarian identity. Yup, that was coming from a jihadist Islamist group.
2- HA opposed all governments lead by Hariri, voted against making the debt in dollars in the v1990s, and spoke against hariris economical model. He also made workshops criticizing this model,
3- HA, when once he could, pushed for and supported a player who wasn’t part of TAEF gang I.e FPM.
4- in 2012, SHN called for a new political convention. He was accused of being sectarian and being after “mutelate”!
5- HA called for an electoral law based on proportionality with wide electoral districts
6- HA did not oppose 17 teshreen in the beginning. Most of his supporters hit the streets. He also held meetings with figures from the movement. For instance, Sayyed Safeieldeen met with hisham Haddad. Problem was, these figures failed to come up with something solid.
7- the only thing that HA did not do was using his military power to impose reforms. But we all know how this will turn. Civil war, accusations of Islamization of Lebanon/iranization, destruction and deaths, foreign intervention… etc. and it will never be pictured as an attempt of HA to fight corruption.
8- HA only corrupted ally is Berri. Not only confronting Berri will lead to a bloodbath and instability within the Shia community and Lebanon, but under the current circumstances, it will deprive HA and FPM from the majority. Berri actually, if not killed at the very early moments, will be able to isolate HA politically by giving the majority to FM and Co.
So, tell me JustLeb, what options does HA have that would make things be better than worse? There is a logical and religious rule : لا يُدفع السيء بالأسوأ.
Given the circumstances and the inability of any popular movement to organize itself unde well defined goals and principles, HA chose to keep things as they are regarding the political system, and try to help the ppl from outside the public institutions just like he did with liberating Lebanon and protecting it from the takfiris. Bringing fuel from Iran and later other important goods are one example
 

HmsBThn

Legendary Member
My comment wasn’t related to the general politics in the country. I am not narrow minded. It was just a side remark.
I left Lebanon when HA couldn’t protect judge Mohammad Mazen. You confuse HA strength as a regional player with its strength in internal politics.
when you want to go through the state institutions and the democratic means to fight corruption, HA can do nothing.
HA did submit documents that incriminate Sanioura to Ali Ibrahim. Once Saniora was at Ali Ibrahim’s office, he showed him documents that incriminate Berri—> case closed.
Here is some points that you should know about HA:
1- HA was against Taef and called for a secular non confessional political system in 1990s. I can send you a speech of Sayyed Abbass Mousawi on the matter. Sayyed Abbass was the former Secretary General. He clearly said that a confessional system will lead to nothing but corruption and that ppl should be treated as citizens regardless of their sectarian identity. Yup, that was coming from a jihadist Islamist group.
2- HA opposed all governments lead by Hariri, voted against making the debt in dollars in the v1990s, and spoke against hariris economical model. He also made workshops criticizing this model,
3- HA, when once he could, pushed for and supported a player who wasn’t part of TAEF gang I.e FPM.
4- in 2012, SHN called for a new political convention. He was accused of being sectarian and being after “mutelate”!
5- HA called for an electoral law based on proportionality with wide electoral districts
6- HA did not oppose 17 teshreen in the beginning. Most of his supporters hit the streets. He also held meetings with figures from the movement. For instance, Sayyed Safeieldeen met with hisham Haddad. Problem was, these figures failed to come up with something solid.
7- the only thing that HA did not do was using his military power to impose reforms. But we all know how this will turn. Civil war, accusations of Islamization of Lebanon/iranization, destruction and deaths, foreign intervention… etc. and it will never be pictured as an attempt of HA to fight corruption.
8- HA only corrupted ally is Berri. Not only confronting Berri will lead to a bloodbath and instability within the Shia community and Lebanon, but under the current circumstances, it will deprive HA and FPM from the majority. Berri actually, if not killed at the very early moments, will be able to isolate HA politically by giving the majority to FM and Co.
So, tell me JustLeb, what options does HA have that would make things be better than worse? There is a logical and religious rule : لا يُدفع السيء بالأسوأ.
Given the circumstances and the inability of any popular movement to organize itself unde well defined goals and principles, HA chose to keep things as they are regarding the political system, and try to help the ppl from outside the public institutions just like he did with liberating Lebanon and protecting it from the takfiris. Bringing fuel from Iran and later other important goods are one example

Hezbollah-terrorist-who-fired-at-Israel-attacked-by-Druze-residents.jpg
 

elAshtar

Legendary Member
Since you also brought personal accusations, I took part in the protests of 17 teshreen. I even inhaled tear gas for the first time in my life 😂. It was Friday night, the very first days, and it was at that night when the police was the most brutal. At that time, I just arrived from Germany, I had a position as a full time professor at one of the private universities in Lebanon and was earning several thousands of dollars a month. I felt nevertheless entitled to join the protests against corruption so that the younger generation can have a better future and don’t have to immigrate like I did. That said, I did not get that position bel wasta and I was a distinguished student in Germany so no one ever paid a cent for my studies there. Was paid by the German government actually.
And I never voted for HA before due to their alliance with Amal and FPM. This time I will :)
 

JB81

Legendary Member
My comment wasn’t related to the general politics in the country. I am not narrow minded. It was just a side remark.
I left Lebanon when HA couldn’t protect judge Mohammad Mazen. You confuse HA strength as a regional player with its strength in internal politics.
when you want to go through the state institutions and the democratic means to fight corruption, HA can do nothing.
HA did submit documents that incriminate Sanioura to Ali Ibrahim. Once Saniora was at Ali Ibrahim’s office, he showed him documents that incriminate Berri—> case closed.
Here is some points that you should know about HA:
1- HA was against Taef and called for a secular non confessional political system in 1990s. I can send you a speech of Sayyed Abbass Mousawi on the matter. Sayyed Abbass was the former Secretary General. He clearly said that a confessional system will lead to nothing but corruption and that ppl should be treated as citizens regardless of their sectarian identity. Yup, that was coming from a jihadist Islamist group.
2- HA opposed all governments lead by Hariri, voted against making the debt in dollars in the v1990s, and spoke against hariris economical model. He also made workshops criticizing this model,
3- HA, when once he could, pushed for and supported a player who wasn’t part of TAEF gang I.e FPM.
4- in 2012, SHN called for a new political convention. He was accused of being sectarian and being after “mutelate”!
5- HA called for an electoral law based on proportionality with wide electoral districts
6- HA did not oppose 17 teshreen in the beginning. Most of his supporters hit the streets. He also held meetings with figures from the movement. For instance, Sayyed Safeieldeen met with hisham Haddad. Problem was, these figures failed to come up with something solid.
7- the only thing that HA did not do was using his military power to impose reforms. But we all know how this will turn. Civil war, accusations of Islamization of Lebanon/iranization, destruction and deaths, foreign intervention… etc. and it will never be pictured as an attempt of HA to fight corruption.
8- HA only corrupted ally is Berri. Not only confronting Berri will lead to a bloodbath and instability within the Shia community and Lebanon, but under the current circumstances, it will deprive HA and FPM from the majority. Berri actually, if not killed at the very early moments, will be able to isolate HA politically by giving the majority to FM and Co.
So, tell me JustLeb, what options does HA have that would make things be better than worse? There is a logical and religious rule : لا يُدفع السيء بالأسوأ.
Given the circumstances and the inability of any popular movement to organize itself unde well defined goals and principles, HA chose to keep things as they are regarding the political system, and try to help the ppl from outside the public institutions just like he did with liberating Lebanon and protecting it from the takfiris. Bringing fuel from Iran and later other important goods are one example

Baddon HA w Tayyar ynadeflon kel wasakhon li jeybina 3layna mn Berri la Hariri la Gaga

N2ele3 sawwet sa7 ya mejweh
 

The_FPMer

Well-Known Member
Baddon HA w Tayyar ynadeflon kel wasakhon li jeybina 3layna mn Berri la Hariri la Gaga

N2ele3 sawwet sa7 ya mejweh
That's a small part of political life but not all of it. Ministers have tremendous amount of powers but they choose not to exercise it. For example, Economy was in the hands of FPM and HA had the Ministry of Agriculture. None of them set any policy or try to improve the daily lives of the average Lebanese.

So spare us the bullshit, only the naive would believe such silly arguments in 2021.
 

The_FPMer

Well-Known Member
All politicians adhere to the same school of Neo-Serfdom. Keep the average Lebanese emotionally and financially dependent on the party and its leader.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
That's a small part of political life but not all of it. Ministers have tremendous amount of powers but they choose not to exercise it. For example, Economy was in the hands of FPM and HA had the Ministry of Agriculture. None of them set any policy or try to improve the daily lives of the average Lebanese.

So spare us the bullshit, only the naive would believe such silly arguments in 2021.

It's all a big part

You have the manzoumeh having grip on all the state from directors to asghar mwazzaf to sa7eb asghar matjar to media that once the minister or a judge does an action towards someone, they turn it politics, like you did with Judge Aoun

Than, you ask why FPM is in the governance... it is for the reason to take the biggest share of bureaucracy, because of the bureaucracy, we hit 2 birds in one stone, bring clean people and weaken the manzoumeh from within

Directors are stronger than the Minister; look at what Rifi did to Charbel Nahhass w Ziad Baroud because mad3oum mn Hariri back then
Other directors mad3oumin mn Berri Joumblat for the most part
 

NewLeb

Active Member
Do I need to remind you the value of Certificates of Credibility issues by you?:lol:

Don’t play stupid with us.

We know who writes for the NYT: White Western leftists who study abroad in Lebanon for a year or two in places like AUB and LAU.

They are soon befriended by their fellow Hezbo and communist classmates, where they are then brainwashed about how awful American/Israeli policy has been in the region, whilst praising bozos like Assad and Nasrallah as being saviors of the country.

How else can you explain propaganda articles like this:

 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
My comment wasn’t related to the general politics in the country. I am not narrow minded. It was just a side remark.
I left Lebanon when HA couldn’t protect judge Mohammad Mazen. You confuse HA strength as a regional player with its strength in internal politics.
when you want to go through the state institutions and the democratic means to fight corruption, HA can do nothing.
HA did submit documents that incriminate Sanioura to Ali Ibrahim. Once Saniora was at Ali Ibrahim’s office, he showed him documents that incriminate Berri—> case closed.
Here is some points that you should know about HA:
1- HA was against Taef and called for a secular non confessional political system in 1990s. I can send you a speech of Sayyed Abbass Mousawi on the matter. Sayyed Abbass was the former Secretary General. He clearly said that a confessional system will lead to nothing but corruption and that ppl should be treated as citizens regardless of their sectarian identity. Yup, that was coming from a jihadist Islamist group.
2- HA opposed all governments lead by Hariri, voted against making the debt in dollars in the v1990s, and spoke against hariris economical model. He also made workshops criticizing this model,
3- HA, when once he could, pushed for and supported a player who wasn’t part of TAEF gang I.e FPM.
4- in 2012, SHN called for a new political convention. He was accused of being sectarian and being after “mutelate”!
5- HA called for an electoral law based on proportionality with wide electoral districts
6- HA did not oppose 17 teshreen in the beginning. Most of his supporters hit the streets. He also held meetings with figures from the movement. For instance, Sayyed Safeieldeen met with hisham Haddad. Problem was, these figures failed to come up with something solid.
7- the only thing that HA did not do was using his military power to impose reforms. But we all know how this will turn. Civil war, accusations of Islamization of Lebanon/iranization, destruction and deaths, foreign intervention… etc. and it will never be pictured as an attempt of HA to fight corruption.
8- HA only corrupted ally is Berri. Not only confronting Berri will lead to a bloodbath and instability within the Shia community and Lebanon, but under the current circumstances, it will deprive HA and FPM from the majority. Berri actually, if not killed at the very early moments, will be able to isolate HA politically by giving the majority to FM and Co.
So, tell me JustLeb, what options does HA have that would make things be better than worse? There is a logical and religious rule : لا يُدفع السيء بالأسوأ.
Given the circumstances and the inability of any popular movement to organize itself unde well defined goals and principles, HA chose to keep things as they are regarding the political system, and try to help the ppl from outside the public institutions just like he did with liberating Lebanon and protecting it from the takfiris. Bringing fuel from Iran and later other important goods are one example

Since you also brought personal accusations, I took part in the protests of 17 teshreen. I even inhaled tear gas for the first time in my life 😂. It was Friday night, the very first days, and it was at that night when the police was the most brutal. At that time, I just arrived from Germany, I had a position as a full time professor at one of the private universities in Lebanon and was earning several thousands of dollars a month. I felt nevertheless entitled to join the protests against corruption so that the younger generation can have a better future and don’t have to immigrate like I did. That said, I did not get that position bel wasta and I was a distinguished student in Germany so no one ever paid a cent for my studies there. Was paid by the German government actually.

Man you are Pro HA, so if I say so, I wouldn't be accusing you of anything.
I would be accusing if I say something that is false.
You know that I respect HA and its resistance, I don't need to repeat that.
But in internal matters, SHN has a big momentum and influence, it won't be good to deny that.
I am not convinced that HA has no political and legal tools to put things straight.
Without HA and his political influence Aoun would have been still in Rabieh fighting shadows (in hindsight, probably it wouldn't have been a bad idea). The fact that HA is able to bring Iranian fuel, is another example of its strength.

Yes, I remember when you said you are back to teach at a university in Lebanon and then you returned to Germany.
You are not alone, a friend of mine (pro HA) spent 6 years in Lebanon, then at the end of 2020 he returned to France.
So this crisis is touching everyone, not only one group or sect without the others.

Personally, I believe that if there is only one guy in Lebanon who still has credibility, it would be SHN and in my opinion, he should show that he can do more. it is not a luxury thing, a nice to have, something that he won't want to stain his hands in, it is something crucial to the survival of the country and he should act. I am not saying he has a magic wand, but with the brains he has around him, he can lay the ground to a roadmap, that will set the country on the path of reform and tell the public opinion about it.
 

HmsBThn

Legendary Member
My comment wasn’t related to the general politics in the country. I am not narrow minded. It was just a side remark.
I left Lebanon when HA couldn’t protect judge Mohammad Mazen. You confuse HA strength as a regional player with its strength in internal politics.
when you want to go through the state institutions and the democratic means to fight corruption, HA can do nothing.
HA did submit documents that incriminate Sanioura to Ali Ibrahim. Once Saniora was at Ali Ibrahim’s office, he showed him documents that incriminate Berri—> case closed.
Here is some points that you should know about HA:
1- HA was against Taef and called for a secular non confessional political system in 1990s. I can send you a speech of Sayyed Abbass Mousawi on the matter. Sayyed Abbass was the former Secretary General. He clearly said that a confessional system will lead to nothing but corruption and that ppl should be treated as citizens regardless of their sectarian identity. Yup, that was coming from a jihadist Islamist group.
2- HA opposed all governments lead by Hariri, voted against making the debt in dollars in the v1990s, and spoke against hariris economical model. He also made workshops criticizing this model,
3- HA, when once he could, pushed for and supported a player who wasn’t part of TAEF gang I.e FPM.
4- in 2012, SHN called for a new political convention. He was accused of being sectarian and being after “mutelate”!
5- HA called for an electoral law based on proportionality with wide electoral districts
6- HA did not oppose 17 teshreen in the beginning. Most of his supporters hit the streets. He also held meetings with figures from the movement. For instance, Sayyed Safeieldeen met with hisham Haddad. Problem was, these figures failed to come up with something solid.
7- the only thing that HA did not do was using his military power to impose reforms. But we all know how this will turn. Civil war, accusations of Islamization of Lebanon/iranization, destruction and deaths, foreign intervention… etc. and it will never be pictured as an attempt of HA to fight corruption.
8- HA only corrupted ally is Berri. Not only confronting Berri will lead to a bloodbath and instability within the Shia community and Lebanon, but under the current circumstances, it will deprive HA and FPM from the majority. Berri actually, if not killed at the very early moments, will be able to isolate HA politically by giving the majority to FM and Co.
So, tell me JustLeb, what options does HA have that would make things be better than worse? There is a logical and religious rule : لا يُدفع السيء بالأسوأ.
Given the circumstances and the inability of any popular movement to organize itself unde well defined goals and principles, HA chose to keep things as they are regarding the political system, and try to help the ppl from outside the public institutions just like he did with liberating Lebanon and protecting it from the takfiris. Bringing fuel from Iran and later other important goods are one example

Taqqya alert. Proceed with caution.
 

The_FPMer

Well-Known Member
It's all a big part

You have the manzoumeh having grip on all the state from directors to asghar mwazzaf to sa7eb asghar matjar to media that once the minister or a judge does an action towards someone, they turn it politics, like you did with Judge Aoun

Than, you ask why FPM is in the governance... it is for the reason to take the biggest share of bureaucracy, because of the bureaucracy, we hit 2 birds in one stone, bring clean people and weaken the manzoumeh from within

Directors are stronger than the Minister; look at what Rifi did to Charbel Nahhass w Ziad Baroud because mad3oum mn Hariri back then
Other directors mad3oumin mn Berri Joumblat for the most part
Bullcrap FPM have their men everywhere and have big margin of maneuver and chose not to use it. 3am teda7ak 3ala 7alak. What you think reality is and what actual reality is in the real world are completely different.

You want to believe that there's a chokehold on the country by the manzoume and FPM is trying to break it but in 2021 this is absolutely not true. Kanaan was one of the many of sabotaged the reform plan and no one cared.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Bullcrap FPM have their men everywhere and have big margin of maneuver and chose not to use it. 3am teda7ak 3ala 7alak. What you think reality is and what actual reality is in the real world are completely different.

You want to believe that there's a chokehold on the country by the manzoume and FPM is trying to break it but in 2021 this is absolutely not true. Kanaan was one of the many of sabotaged the reform plan and no one cared.

FPM have some men... and not everywhere
The process speed up last couple years, but still don't make 10% of state's bureaucracy

No one wanted FPM in power and this is the truth. Berri is the head of Manzoumeh

And when Aoun was elected as President, tele3 ghass mn 3ab jami3 w mn wara nkeyet Samir la Saad 🤣

Bass abou araneb was clear and he said it from day one. Allah ma khallineh eza byenja7 elAhd

They say it in their own words but you chose to not listen. They say it 100 times how a mistake they made once they elected Aoun

And the mistake is not for Countries's benefit. They meant their own

Aoun and Bassil played it their way; appointments and bureaucracy

The more we are in, the less they are; the more we are powerful the less they are

And we saw how weakened they are becoming; but also, we should not forget last year political developments from opening to Iran and Syria; in which, it will reflect negative on manzoumeh fesdeh who took an anti-IranSyria stand from 2005, and 2011

And we should not forget the Saudis who want to close corrupt Hariri house

All I can say Allah kbir... looks like Nabih will be forced to retire, Hariri ykhlass mn Saudis first, and Joumbi is reduced to 5 mps

We should wait and see how such developments will be materialized in the government
It will be a test to see how much power left for the Manzoumeh

Manzoumeh I mean Berri Hariri Joumblat w klebon zimmiyin mn Sleiman la samir

Syria may play a role in isolating Berri... such as, they force Sleiman to chose between them or Berri
I think Franjiyeh is stupid, but not as stupid to chose Berri over Syria
 

NewLeb

Active Member
I fear this trend will only get worse with the current government.

March 8 in general is anti-capitalism and free-thought. Sunnis and March 14 Christians tend to go into business and finance, and their continued exodus will only hurt the economics of Lebanon.

Aounies seem to prefer engineering degrees, but you can’t fund engineering projects without any serious capital (which they don’t have). And needless to say, Hezbollah has no real experience in the world of legitimate business….

 
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