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On Hezbollah and Recent Events...

Motorcity

Well-Known Member
Abu_Talib said:
Hizballah is a valuable group within lebanon. I am not opposed to their existance. Their mandate is outdated for the current situation in lebanon. They are not contributing anything to the security of lebanon right now, They are only protecting themselves. Israel is not as big a threat as the string of bombings and political assissinations being carried out right now. (regardless of who you think is responsible). If the reasoning for blocking the international communities involvement in assissting lebanon right now is that Hizballah would rather see it solved internally, its time they contribute something.

So you are saying that we should abonden one mean of security until the other is fixed!
And how does the security of the South isn't part of the security of Lebanon, wasn't Mo7amad faran fishing in Lebanese waters when the Israelis shot him & returned an empty boat with blood & bullet marks!

And i don't see them preventing any security improvements, they only object an International tribunial for reasons of western interference, they prefer a Lebanese one!
 

Motorcity

Well-Known Member
Many have a perception as if Hizb withdrawled from the goverment in celebration of Twaini's death, when in reality they they withdrawled because FM & co decided unilaterly on the International court, abondoning the "Aldemoqratiya Altwafokiya" & resorting to "Adimoqratia Al3adadiya" When it suited them, and taking advantage of the emotional day!
This was a very dangerous move with consequences, & might open the door to adopting "Adimoqratia Al3adadiya" as the rule, not the exception, thus everyone getting his proper repressentaion!
 

Omega80

Well-Known Member
Motorcity said:
And i don't see them preventing any security improvements, they only object an International tribunial for reasons of western interference, they prefer a Lebanese one!

Bas ya Motorcity, please explain to me how this is Western influence? These slogans that they are using just aren't going to cut it anymore.

How can we have a Lebanese trial in Lebanon, and expect for example the judges to be fair and not fear for their lives if their is a certain verdict?? A trial in Lebanon will be under severe political and security preasures.

Also, like LebanonUSA said, the War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague dealing with the former Yugoslavia was created, because when another country commits a crime in another, that is the only way to go. If it was Lebanese killing Lebanese, I would agree with you, however, when it is Syria killing Lebanese, and we are currently a weak nation, having the trial of suspects in Lebanon just can't logically happen. To say that it will and demand that it will is just stalling the wheels of justice, for some reason.
 

MEchronicle

Well-Known Member
Motorcity said:
So you are saying that we should abonden one mean of security until the other is fixed!
And how does the security of the South isn't part of the security of Lebanon, wasn't Mo7amad faran fishing in Lebanese waters when the Israelis shot him & returned an empty boat with blood & bullet marks!

And i don't see them preventing any security improvements,
they only object an International tribunial for reasons of western interference, they prefer a Lebanese one!

1) Protecting the south is as important as the north and the center. Hizballah is a lebanese group not a souther lebanese group and must use its resources for the whole of the country
2) The Death of Fisherman, although unfortunate and regretted and requires international/national outcries from all, does not have the same political implications as the assissination of a political figuere (i.e Gebran Tueni.)
3)Suspending your involvement as a member of the cabinet in a time of crisis prevents a government response that could better the situation. However justified thier reasoning, they are using their national roles as members of the cabinet to further their own interests (which is irresponsible)
 

Motorcity

Well-Known Member
ddiwan said:
Bas ya Motorcity, please explain to me how this is Western influence? These slogans that they are using just aren't going to cut it anymore.

ddiwan, how come the US supports such a tribunial, when in reality they have immuned themselves, along with Israel from such Tribunails!

do you know that they were the only two countries in the world not to sign the treaty that gives power for International tribunails!!!!!!!!



How can we have a Lebanese trial in Lebanon, and expect for example the judges to be fair and not fear for their lives if their is a certain verdict?? A trial in Lebanon will be under severe political and security preasures.

Also, like LebanonUSA said, the War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague dealing with the former Yugoslavia was created, because when another country commits a crime in another, that is the only way to go. If it was Lebanese killing Lebanese, I would agree with you, however, when it is Syria killing Lebanese, and we are currently a weak nation, having the trial of suspects in Lebanon just can't logically happen. To say that it will and demand that it will is just stalling the wheels of justice, for some reason.

usually, Intenational tribunials are set in third countries in case there was any fears of injustice, but its not always the case!
 

Omega80

Well-Known Member
Motorcity said:
ddiwan, how come the US supports such a tribunial, when in reality they have immuned themselves, along with Israel from such Tribunails!

do you know that they were the only two countries in the world not to sign the treaty that gives power for International tribunails!!!!!!!!

usually, Intenational tribunials are set in third countries in case there was any fears of injustice, but its not always the case!


Firstly, so because the U.S. and Israel don't want to do what is right, that means that inkayeh feyoon, we don't get our justice?



Motorcity said:
usually, Intenational tribunials are set in third countries in case there was any fears of injustice, but its not always the case!


So, you don't think there are fears in this case of such things or even worse?
 

Motorcity

Well-Known Member
Abu_Talib said:
1) Protecting the south is as important as the north and the center. Hizballah is a lebanese group not a souther lebanese group and must use its resources for the whole of the country
It will be simplistic to portray things as is, remeber it was Syria who protected the Hizb's back in his struggle against israel, and funnelled weapons via Damascus!!!
Rember we we aren't a unified peaceful country that got suddenly attacked by a stranger!!!
2) The Death of Fisherman, although unfortunate and regretted and requires international/national outcries from all, does not have the same political implications as the assissination of a political figuere (i.e Gebran Tueni.)
I couldn't disagree more,
The fisherman's only crime was seeking his daily produce for his family, while Mr. Twaini & Mr. Hariri were two politicians working against the National interest of the attacker!
3)Suspending your involvement as a member of the cabinet in a time of crisis prevents a government response that could better the situation. However justified thier reasoning, they are using their national roles as members of the cabinet to further their own interests (which is irresponsible)
They withdrawled because FM & co decided unilaterly on the International court, the two parties were close to reaching a middle sollutuion to the issue, but then FM took advantage of the emotions to pass what they wanted to pass!
 

Motorcity

Well-Known Member
ddiwan said:
Firstly, so because the U.S. and Israel don't want to do what is right, that means that inkayeh feyoon, we don't get our justice?
Its called double standards, but anyway this isn't the reasons they object, its because of further internationalizing the Lebanese problem, and oppening the doors of interfernece wide open!

So, you don't think there are fears in this case of such things or even worse?
Well, as far as i know the objection is on the International one, not the local one!
 

Motorcity

Well-Known Member
Anyway, the real question isn't about were & how the Syrians will be tried!
The FM group is in pursuite of a truth it already knows.
What the FM group isn't realizing, is that knowing in advance that this is one way ticket towards the end of the Syrian regime!
The Syrian regime won't sit still, it will fight back with its most destructfull weapon, which we sampled yesterday & shaked not only Lebanese security, but the hopes of many in Lebanons recovery!
Are we sure we could continue this path? What are the costs?
 

Hizb_al_LIBNANI

Active Member
achaaban said:
...As a secular Shiite...

You know, I agreed with EVERY WORD IN YOUR POST... but the above quote I was slightly unclear about. Not to single you out in any way, I am a non-hizb Christian whos waiting for everyone in Lebanon to wake up.... and I am trying to understand why you, a "SECULAR Shiite" (a very paradoxial way of describing yourself) supports a political party that is religion based??

In my opinion, that is rather Anti-FPM... then again, I am no expert on FPM's political framework...maybe you can help me with that.

p.s.: I appologize if I am taking this disscussion of topic. Let me know if you prefer to discuss this outside of this thread...

Thanks..

-Libnani
 

MEchronicle

Well-Known Member
Motorcity said:
t will be simplistic to portray things as is, remeber it was Syria who protected the Hizb's back in his struggle against israel, and funnelled weapons via Damascus!!!
Rember we we aren't a unified peaceful country that got suddenly attacked by a stranger!!!

I couldn't disagree more,
The fisherman's only crime was seeking his daily produce for his family, while Mr. Twaini & Mr. Hariri were two politicians working against the National interest of the attacker!

They withdrawled because FM & co decided unilaterly on the International court, the two parties were close to reaching a middle sollutuion to the issue, but then FM took advantage of the emotions to pass what they wanted to pass!

Firstly, your rebutal to my first comment doesn't apply to what i said. We are currently a country who is being attacked by an unidentified stranger not israel

secondly, look at what i wrote. I said that the killing of a fisherman will not have the same political implications as the killing of a political figuere. It has nothing to do with who the person was or what they did. The assassination of a politician (whoever he may be) could cause chaos in a country.

Thirdly, Please refer to what i wrote. I am not looking at the reason why they walked out but the act of walking out. You are a member of a cabinet of lebanon not a child in a school yard argument who can storm off, take their ball and go home because the other kids aren't playing fair. They have a responsibility to all of lebanon not just their supporters.

I am in agreement with your last comment which you posted. I just feel that Hizballah, and amal for that matter, want the benefits of being in the cabinet but aren't willing to take the risks or enage in dialogue.
 

Motorcity

Well-Known Member
Abu_Talib said:
Firstly, your rebutal to my first comment doesn't apply to what i said. We are currently a country who is being attacked by an unidentified stranger not israel
Read it again my friend, its not one of those "agree with me or not', its actually a "we don't think the same argument"!

secondly, look at what i wrote. I said that the killing of a fisherman will not have the same political implications as the killing of a political figuere. It has nothing to do with who the person was or what they did. The assassination of a politician (whoever he may be) could cause chaos in a country.
This is getting really Byzantine, khayeh lets not waiste time anymore time on this, Gebran's assasination is more important than the Fisherman, but the Fisherman death was for no particluar reason!!!
I might've been imotional here, rather than logical!!

Thirdly, Please refer to what i wrote:
This is what you wrote:
Suspending your involvement as a member of the cabinet in a time of crisis prevents a government response that could better the situation. However justified thier reasoning, they are using their national roles as members of the cabinet to further their own interests (which is irresponsible)
ya Abu-Taleb, Amal & Hizb are trying to prevent any further escalation, I agree that the act wasn't the best move, but rather one of bad taste, here read what i wrote about it:
http://www.lfpm.org/forum/showpost.php?p=180448&postcount=31



. I am not looking at the reason why they walked out but the act of walking out. You are a member of a cabinet of lebanon not a child in a school yard argument who can storm off, take their ball and go home because the other kids aren't playing fair. They have a responsibility to all of lebanon not just their supporters.
The act itself was a response to FM & co's abondoning of the "Aldemoqratiya Altwafokiya" & resorting to "Adimoqratia Al3adadiya" When it suited them, when the Shiites are heavilly misrepressented under the first!

I am in agreement with your last comment which you posted. I just feel that Hizballah, and amal for that matter, want the benefits of being in the cabinet but aren't willing to take the risks or enage in dialogue.
As I said, they almost reached an agreement about the International tribunial, so your claims about dialoge aren't exactly true!
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Abu_Talib said:
Hizballah is claiming to keep their arms for the security of all of lebanon not just their leaders and the south & Da7ieh. By your logic christian militias should be allowed to have weapons because their leaders are being killed and their leaders are being killed.

It is true that Hezbollah claims that they are keeping their weapons for the security of Lebanon, Hezbollah does not talk about the sect or the secratian talk that we enjoy associating them with. It is the followers who see them as protectors of the sect, because the latest trend is calling Hezbollah and their supporters as non-Lebanese. So in a state that views Hezbollah and their supporters as non-Lebanese, Hezbollah is protecting the non-Lebanese sect that occupies Lebanon. The others, who are the Lebanese are already protected by the Lebanese army and the Lebanese security forces.:confused:
 

MEchronicle

Well-Known Member
achaaban said:
It is true that Hezbollah claims that they are keeping their weapons for the security of Lebanon, Hezbollah does not talk about the sect or the secratian talk that we enjoy associating them with. It is the followers who see them as protectors of the sect, because the latest trend is calling Hezbollah and their supporters as non-Lebanese. So in a state that views Hezbollah and their supporters as non-Lebanese, Hezbollah is protecting the non-Lebanese sect that occupies Lebanon. The others, who are the Lebanese are already protected by the Lebanese army and the Lebanese security forces.:confused:

Thank you for shedding some light from a diffrent point of view. I still feel that Hizballah is not acting in a responsible manner. They are always held on a diffrent moral ground because they are not corrupt and so on, i just think its time they take advantage of the current situation and do something that benefits all of Lebanon.
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Abu_Talib said:
Thank you for shedding some light from a diffrent point of view. I still feel that Hizballah is not acting in a responsible manner. They are always held on a diffrent moral ground because they are not corrupt and so on, i just think its time they take advantage of the current situation and do something that benefits all of Lebanon.

I seem to agree with you that they should start from a different moral ground and do something that will benefit the whole of Lebanon, but we need to establish the ground first. That is changing this government into one that is Lebanese and not Haririan. This government must fall and a new government should be formed with civil servants who have a vision on how they want to govern, instead of the kings and the sons of kings and serving their own interests. Does it strike you as bizarre that one of the most progressive political parties in Lebanon FPM is not in the government and that is fine with the Haririan government?

We do not have a government that is a servant of the Lebanese people, the government does not have any program for the reform of Lebanon, the only thing that this government is doing is that it is going to the UN instead of Syria to ask for something that is so irrelevant to the well being of the country and that is who killed Hariri? I am fed up of Hariri and who killed him, I would like to know how the economy, the security is and the social well fare structure will be improved by the government that is supposedly governing the Lebanese people.
 

Omega80

Well-Known Member
achaaban said:
Hezbollah is protecting the non-Lebanese sect that occupies Lebanon. The others, who are the Lebanese are already protected by the Lebanese army and the Lebanese security forces.:confused:


This seems very ironic to me, since Hezbollah is covering the a*ses of those that are responsible for this breach in Lebanese security!

So we can conclude that indirectly, Hezbollah is undermining the security forces, and thus Lebanese security as a whole. That is the hypocricy that we have to deal with!
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
ddiwan said:
This seems very ironic to me, since Hezbollah is covering the a*ses of those that are responsible for this breach in Lebanese security!

So we can conclude that indirectly, Hezbollah is undermining the security forces, and thus Lebanese security as a whole. That is the hypocricy that we have to deal with!

The first step in trying to solve any situation is awareness of the realities of the situation. You really make it sound like Lebanon is secure and does have security forces, and regardless to this proven security Hezbollah is carrying their weapons. Lebanon is a chaos, people are being assassinated and our intellectuals and national icons are hunted like birds. Where the hell is this security and for that matter the security forces. It seems like I am the only one who is angry about this situation, when everyone else is living in this BS dream of the Lebanese army and the Lebanese security. Can't you see that people are dying? There are explosions everywhere, and the government is doing nothing but blaming the security failure of the Syrians who left the country. Can’t you be a bit more constructive in suggesting solutions for this disaster situation rather than echoing the Israeli request of disarming Hezbollah so that Israel is secure, can’t you think of the security of your country for a change instead of guaranteeing the security of Israel’s northern borders, do you hear yourself, do you hear whose interests are you serving?

I suggest that instead of wasting our energy trying to disarm Hezbollah, let us spend sometime in trying to fix the disaster that this country in living in and try to guarantee security to the Lebanese citizens.
 

Omega80

Well-Known Member
achaaban said:
Lebanon is a chaos, people are being assassinated and our intellectuals and national icons are hunted like birds.

True, we do have a security problem regarding the security services, but also, we have a problem because Hezbollah always wants to defend the SOURCE of our security problems. It seems hypocritical to me how you want to complain about security, which is fine, however, if you are going to complain, do so completely not selectively.

Syria is the cause of all this death and destruction, so any group that gives it support, even moral support, is also part of the problem that we have. If you can't recognize or don't want to admit that fact, and just want to sit and talk about the failure of the security agencies, which is something we figured out long ago, then you are being apolgetic for now reason.
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
ddiwan said:
True, we do have a security problem regarding the security services, but also, we have a problem because Hezbollah always wants to defend the SOURCE of our security problems. It seems hypocritical to me how you want to complain about security, which is fine, however, if you are going to complain, do so completely not selectively.

Syria is the cause of all this death and destruction, so any group that gives it support, even moral support, is also part of the problem that we have. If you can't recognize or don't want to admit that fact, and just want to sit and talk about the failure of the security agencies, which is something we figured out long ago, then you are being apolgetic for now reason.

Syria was in Lebanon because the Lebanese allowed them to be in Lebanon, Israel was in Lebanon because the Lebanese wanted them to come to Lebanon. Admit that we never cared neither about Lebanon nor about the Lebanese people, and suggest how we will become people who care about each other.

No, it is not Syria's fault, and it is not Israel's fault. It is the fault of the irresponsible Lebanese people, the ignorant Lebanese people, and the people who do not see other people. The Lebanese state has always been a prostitute state, our government officials are prostitutes who go for the strong rich country so that they could be paid for selling the honor of the country, for selling the pride of the country. That is what Lebanon is, it is up to you if you want to change it and it is up to you if you want to join the crusade of prostitutes who historically have been the Lebanese politicians.
 

Leb_Ashrafieh

Well-Known Member
I strongly believe that Hezbollah is loosing their national resistance stance day after day by the way they are reacting. They are proving day after day that they prioritize Syria and sisterly Iran over Lebanon. When anything has to do with Syria, they are always the first ones to defend this sisterly nation and when something happens to a Lebanese parliament member the still do not feel the need to unit with their Lebanese compatriots regardless whether Syria is being accused or not.

I do believe that Hezbollah still has an agenda and working for and for the interest of a foreign country. All their speeches and actions are proofs of such theories.

Their weapons are not to defend Lebanon neither the south. Their weapons are there to keep tensions on our southern border to help achieve the agendas of our “sisterly” country called Syria.

Walla 3ayb. Only blinded and brainwashed people will believe that they are working for lebanon’s interests specially after the discovery on the mass graves and what the Lebanese people have suffered under the Syrian regime. And they are still defending Syria. Actually, in such case some people will be persecuted for treason and cooperating with enemy!! (((remember the 3 members of hurraz el arz !!!)))
No but when we are dealing with Syria, we have to say its our sister!!! We need good relations between the 2 countries!!! Etc.

ENOUGH, ENOUGH, if some people are fools to believe all what hizb is stating well please do not count me between them.
 
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