On the issue of Hizbullah and Secularism

[HezbollaH]

Although Hezbollah will not call for a secular state or advocate for this kind of system, Hezbollah will respect it if it was established based on the will of the people. However it will not adopt it.

 

[Dry Ice]

Although Hezbollah will not call for a secular state or advocate for this kind of system, Hezbollah will respect it if it was established based on the will of the people. However it will not adopt it.

I do not understand how Hezbollah will respect a secular state without adopting it? Do you mean that Hezbollah will not participate in a secular government?

 

[Kasparov]

I do not understand how Hezbollah will respect a secular state without adopting it? Do you mean that Hezbollah will not participate in a secular government?

Please note the following :

1. the person with a nickname of "Hezbollah" might not be a representative of their thoughts , so i advise you to ask a Hezbollah Member to get a clear view about this subject .

2. In a secular state , state officials are not supposed to act upon their religon in public, but they can do so in private, with time i believe all parties can follow that system (again having a Majority of lebanese believe in it, which i dont see now, even in FPM many dont believe in Secularism)

 

[Dry Ice]

Kasparov,

My question was not addressed to Hezbollah per se, but was food for thought, you know? When you actually advance a Knight to expose the other King? The Fundamental King that is.

 

[Hizb_al_LIBNANI]

Hizbullah and Secularism is like OIL and WATER...

Although Hezbollah will not call for a secular state or advocate for this kind of system, Hezbollah will respect it if it was established based on the will of the people. However it will not adopt it.

[sarcasm]

I agree...the Hizb will, AS ALWAYS, respect polcies other then their own and that of their true leader...IRAN. And contrary to popular belief...a party who takes orders from IRAN can STILL be acting in Lebanon's best interests....

Just as the Nazi Party is enjoying success in America...

[/sarcasm]

 

[HezbollaH]

I do not understand how Hezbollah will respect a secular state without adopting it? Do you mean that Hezbollah will not participate in a secular government?

It means that Hezbollah will not adjust itself to be secular, or make any internal changes to become secular. It will only respect and accept but not change.

 

[nation]

FPM should do what it always did that means go alone in the path of liberating Lebanon and conquering the heath of the Lebanese people, our people. We don't need the help of fanatics group such Hizbollah, PSP or LF.

 

[Bodhisattva]

It means that Hezbollah will not adjust itself to be secular, or make any internal changes to become secular. It will only respect and accept but not change.

will i be a able to marry the daughter of a Hizbulla Official?

:smile:

regds


p.S: this is in case i am not Shitte.

 

[HezbollaH]

will i be a able to marry the daughter of a Hizbulla Official?

Nice exmaple

Well you will only be able to marry her under Shiite Islamic laws and regulations. Which means not by civil marriage (secular) and not by non-Islamic marriage (Christian or otherwise)

Or else, you're welcome

 

[BOILER]

Nice exmaple

Well you will only be able to marry her under Shiite Islamic laws and regulations. Which means not by civil marriage (secular) and not by non-Islamic marriage (Christian or otherwise)

Or else, you're welcome

she's married folks

 

[HooKs]

Well after reading the discussions of the topic raised by Dry_Ice, i found myself obliged to copy and paste some of what i wrote as a reply to an LF supporter in another thread. I hope this will help clarifying things and somehow reliefing worried souls.

.. regarding their aim of turning Lebanon into an Islamic state, u gotta take into consideration the radical changes that took place in Lebanon, here r some:

1- Syria is out of Lebanon and for GOOD.

2- Political alliences on the Lebanese Arena have undergone a drastic change: SUNNA, DRUZE, and fractions of CHRISTIANS r allied together in the face of SHI3A.

3- SHI3A enjoys a strong political and social existance on certain spots of the Lebanese map which definitely excludes the Mountain Lebanon District and the whole North. Their direct areas of influence r DA7YI, parts of BEKAA valley, great portion of the SOUTH.

4- Israel, USA will never accept the establishing of a "micro" IRAN on the northern borders of ISRAEL.

5- SHIEKH HASAN NASRALLAH said it out loud and on tv, they r not after an aim of establishing an ISLAMIC state in Lebanon for the fact that Lebanon is a mixture (mosaic) of multiple ethnicities and religious factions (even though they thought about it during the war).

6- WE ARE ALL MINORITIES IN LEBANON. Any 2 of the major 4 religious sects allied together, can form a kind of political majority.

7- Tensions r rising between SUNNA and SHI3A as a result of the situation in IRAQ and the difference in political views, specially after the brutal and barbaric assasination of the late PM HARRIRI (God bless his soul).

8- WAR taught us the hard way, that no one can delete or eliminate no one.

Take into consideration all the mentioned above, combine them together,, and u`ll realize that the motto of Islamizing Lebanon on the hands of HIZB is nothing but an illusion.

Dear Dry_Ice, the danger does not come from HIZB. On the contrary, it is coming from another unexpected party which is TAYYAR al MUSTAQBAL. Take a deep look at the tishkilet and te3yinet and even tar2iyet in different fields of Public Administration, Security Forces, Army, Bierut Municipality, etc..... Do u know what`s going on there and what`s the percentage of the Christians included in the (TTT) Te3yinet, Tishkilet, Tar2iyet??!!! It is close to NULL..

all the best,

ROGER

 

[Bodhisattva]

Nice exmaple

Well you will only be able to marry her under Shiite Islamic laws and regulations. Which means not by civil marriage (secular) and not by non-Islamic marriage (Christian or otherwise)

Or else, you're welcome

so explain to me how this is "respecting" seculirsm?

maybe im missing something..


p.S: in case im non shitte, lol


regds

 

[jiugiusti]

Can I ask few questions:
- Can Hizbullah whose existence, weapons and money (the nerf of any war) relies on Iran have the interests of lebanon above the interests of Iran in the ME?
- Is hizbullah the shi3a who vote for him or the powerful management who run every single corner in his ministate where people don't have the choice but to be his followers?
- Untill 2001 (i left the country afterward), I saw hizbullah in many lebanese fairs having a stand with pc and promoting an islamic state in lebanon; why would that change?

Secularism is a state of mind; And according to my own experience, the only lebanese who in their majority are really secular are the follower of the ssnp ideology (i am not talking about its management); Other than that, most of the lebanese of all lebanese parties/movment, are secatarian (which is I don't see as negative as many others see when I look into the context some communities lived in).
So, secularism can't take place in lebanon except through force (the same thing happened in france - let me note that secularism in france is the White secularism against the white catholicism).

Now, it is true that no community can elimininate another community in lebanon physically, but few communities leadership (shi3a, sunni and druze) eliminiated the rights of one community (christians) in the last 15 years and the druze and the sunni did not change their stance willingflly but by foreign orders (of course the assassination of Hariri played a role and the new vision of the USA in the region).

 

[Dry Ice]

1- Syria is out of Lebanon and for GOOD.

The Syrian regime never wanted an Islamic State.

2- Political alliences on the Lebanese Arena have undergone a drastic change: SUNNA, DRUZE, and fractions of CHRISTIANS r allied together in the face of SHI3A.

Which will increaes the Shias' radicalism.

3- SHI3A enjoys a strong political and social existance on certain spots of the Lebanese map which definitely excludes the Mountain Lebanon District and the whole North. Their direct areas of influence r DA7YI, parts of BEKAA valley, great portion of the SOUTH.

They already have autonomous areas to apply Sharia.

4- Israel, USA will never accept the establishing of a "micro" IRAN on the northern borders of ISRAEL.

Never rely on the States and Israel do to your job.

5- SHIEKH HASAN NASRALLAH said it out loud and on tv, they r not after an aim of establishing an ISLAMIC state in Lebanon for the fact that Lebanon is a mixture (mosaic) of multiple ethnicities and religious factions (even though they thought about it during the war).

Hassan Nasrallah is a master of dissimulation.

6- WE ARE ALL MINORITIES IN LEBANON. Any 2 of the major 4 religious sects allied together, can form a kind of political majority.

When was the last time 2 religious sects allied together and something durable came out f it?

7- Tensions r rising between SUNNA and SHI3A as a result of the situation in IRAQ and the difference in political views, specially after the brutal and barbaric assasination of the late PM HARRIRI (God bless his soul).

Which helps extremists.

8- WAR taught us the hard way, that no one can delete or eliminate no one.

Yeah but according to Hezb, only Islam unites all.

the danger does not come from HIZB. On the contrary, it is coming from another unexpected party which is TAYYAR al MUSTAQBAL. Take a deep look at the tishkilet and te3yinet and even tar2iyet in different fields of Public Administration, Security Forces, Army, Bierut Municipality, etc..... Do u know what`s going on there and what`s the percentage of the Christians included in the (TTT) Te3yinet, Tishkilet, Tar2iyet??!!! It is close to NULL..

And this is supposed to make me feel better about the intentions of Hezbollah?

 

[Free_Patriot]

so explain to me how this is "respecting" seculirsm?

maybe im missing something..


p.S: in case im non shitte, lol


regds

Bodhi,

let's look at the isse from an objective point of view, Some (or most) Christians are as passionate against marriages between a man and a woman of different religions as Hizbullah is. I don't see why we should look at Hizbullah as the only obstacle to secularism in Lebanon. At least they are the only party who are being honest about themselves about being religeous.

My point is, a dialogue with Hizbullah cannot take place under the assumption that Hizbullah must fundamentally change its beliefs in order to get the secular system established. This would not be a dialogue.

 

[Dry Ice]

Bodhi,

let's look at the isse from an objective point of view, Some (or most) Christians are as passionate against marriages between a man and a woman of different religions as Hizbullah is. I don't see why we should look at Hizbullah as the only obstacle to secularism in Lebanon. At least they are the only party who are being honest about themselves about being religeous.

My point is, a dialogue with Hizbullah cannot take place under the assumption that Hizbullah must fundamentally change its beliefs in order to get the secular system established. This would not be a dialogue.

FP,

Hezbollah's official policy is to have an anti-secular religious regime in Lebanon.

It is their core constituency, this is what defines them.

We are not talking here of a stereotyped or racist Christian that is against inter-faith marriage, Hezbollah created an an officially written and agreed upon road map that definesits past, present and future here on.

I hope that this point is acknowledged.

 

[Free_Patriot]

FP,

Hezbollah's official policy is to have an anti-secular religious regime in Lebanon.

It is their core constituency, this is what defines them.

We are not talking here of a stereotyped or racist Christian that is against inter-faith marriage, Hezbollah created an an officially written and agreed upon road map that definesits past, present and future here on.

I hope that this point is acknowledged.

Personally I can't consider this point as true beyond any reasonable doubt. I’ve gone through the literature you posted earlier in this thread and here’s my question, do you or not believe that Hizbullah has gone through major ideological and political changes over the past years under the leadership of Hassan Nasrallah?

It means that Hezbollah will not adjust itself to be secular, or make any internal changes to become secular. It will only respect and accept but not change.

Dry Ice, I would also like to hear what you thought about the above quote, thanks

 

[Dry Ice]

Personally I can't consider this point as true beyond any reasonable doubt. I’ve gone through the literature you posted earlier in this thread and here’s my question, do you or not believe that Hizbullah has gone through major ideological and political changes over the past years under the leadership of Hassan Nasrallah?

Free Patriot,

The tactical choices of Hezbollah differ from their strategical choices.

There is no doubt in their strategic choice which is to install an Islamic Republic. However working on creating the proper environment for such a Republic precedes its proper establishment.

Originally Posted by HezbollaH
It means that Hezbollah will not adjust itself to be secular, or make any internal changes to become secular. It will only respect and accept but not change

Dry Ice, I would also like to hear what you thought about the above quote, thanks

The tactical choices of Hezbollah differ from their strategical choices.

Hezbollah will not commit into the strategical change of becoming secular. However Hezbollah will follow its tactical choice to momentarily respect and accept the current Lebanese State (be it the Taef State or a Secular State), while working on stregthening their own view of the Republic.

There is no doubt in their strategic choice which is to install an Islamic Republic. However working on creating the proper environment for such a Republic precedes its proper establishment.

Thank you my friend and I hope that the few words that I mentioned above are enough as an answer to you and to the doubters.

Regards,
Brahim

 

[Lebanon4AllLebanese]

Thanks Dry Ice for the very intelligent and informative article on Fadlallah etc. explaining somewhat the different flavors and currents of modern Shiite ideology in Lebanon, and especially the Islamist one.

Dont listen to anyone who said it was too much.. I read it all.. Its important to have this context which isnt felt and is strongly misunderstood in different parts of Lebanon.

I strongly loathed the parts about the 'Israeli head and the Lebanese christian tail', and about the borders of Lebanon being false and drawn as an 'imperialist tool' to divide the Islamic nation.

For one, Lebanon existed as a culture and as a people long before Christianity, Islam, and even Judaism. And second, it was never a strong integral part of the Islamic nation but rather a conquered and rebellious province.. in fact it was a refuge for persecuted Shiites escaping the 'Islamic nation'. Now some of their descendants wish Lebanon - the land of minorities - to be the motor behind a new Islamic nation?

There's not even a hint of reality in this. Its just a hope and a rallying cry, a sense of identity and pride, but anyone Shiite or otherwise with a hint of intelligence knows that this will never happen in Lebanon because the immune system of the land will reject it just like it rejected Israeli, Syrian or general arab domination.

The sad state of affairs that led to this ideology was the dispossession, poverty and second class citizenship that was accorded to Shiites by arabs in general and Lebanese in particular before they found their voice in the seventies.

This is where we differ Dry Ice. I too loathe the idea of an Islamic state or anything to do with state and government that is non secular, no matter what religion or combination of religions. But still I dont fear or disrespect or even dislike Hezbollah, and am not paranoid about them or about my differences of opinion with them.

Instead of believing in differences, believe in the similarities of what all people want - prosperity and a better future, good governance absent of corruption that serves the people and not itself. If these things are provided, poisonous ideas wither and the majority of people find themselves much closer to the center.

 

[Dry Ice]

Thanks Dry Ice for the very intelligent and informative article on Fadlallah etc. explaining somewhat the different flavors and currents of modern Shiite ideology in Lebanon, and especially the Islamist one.

Dont listen to anyone who said it was too much.. I read it all.. Its important to have this context which isnt felt and is strongly misunderstood in different parts of Lebanon.

I strongly loathed the parts about the 'Israeli head and the Lebanese christian tail', and about the borders of Lebanon being false and drawn as an 'imperialist tool' to divide the Islamic nation.

For one, Lebanon existed as a culture and as a people long before Christianity, Islam, and even Judaism. And second, it was never a strong integral part of the Islamic nation but rather a conquered and rebellious province.. in fact it was a refuge for persecuted Shiites escaping the 'Islamic nation'. Now some of their descendants wish Lebanon - the land of minorities - to be the motor behind a new Islamic nation?

There's not even a hint of reality in this. Its just a hope and a rallying cry, a sense of identity and pride, but anyone Shiite or otherwise with a hint of intelligence knows that this will never happen in Lebanon because the immune system of the land will reject it just like it rejected Israeli, Syrian or general arab domination.

The sad state of affairs that led to this ideology was the dispossession, poverty and second class citizenship that was accorded to Shiites by arabs in general and Lebanese in particular before they found their voice in the seventies.

This is where we differ Dry Ice. I too loathe the idea of an Islamic state or anything to do with state and government that is non secular, no matter what religion or combination of religions. But still I dont fear or disrespect or even dislike Hezbollah, and am not paranoid about them or about my differences of opinion with them.

Instead of believing in differences, believe in the similarities of what all people want - prosperity and a better future, good governance absent of corruption that serves the people and not itself. If these things are provided, poisonous ideas wither and the majority of people find themselves much closer to the center.

First L4AL,

Thank you. Thank you for reading the whole article and acknowledging the poison of Hezbollah's ideology.

Secondly, I respect your position on believing in similarities with the people versus looking at differences. I believe in that too. I am not looking at the differences with my Shiite brothers, I am looking at differences with Hezbollah. Hezbollah is not the Shiites and the Shiites are not Hezbollah. The Shiites are Lebanon, then Mount Amel and Baalbeck. The Shiites are Moussa Sadr. The Shiites are not Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah. I believe in equal development for the entire republic (eder). I agree that those poisonous ideas will wither and people would become centrists, I am a centrist and I hope to remain as such.

Finally, my critic of the Hezbollah is not addressed to the Shiites nor Islam nor the poor rural people of Lebanon. It is addressed to Hezbollah per se, to the fundamentalists who really do not feel that they are being radical with their ideas, they believe that their ideas are righteous and fair, that for all humanity, Islam is the key.

Let us keep on looking at similiraties with the people, with the Shiites, with Muslims, with poor rural habitants, this will bring them to the center, I am sure of that - however let us also and always keep Hezbollah and ideologies like Hezbollah's in check: We know what they are up to and we should not sleep over it because the next 50 years might not be enough to curb the Islamic wave.


The Third Lebanese Shiite Force
Hazem Saghieh

Forging a new political Lebanese Shiite force is an advantage for them, for Lebanon and for the whole region.

First, let us say that the Shiites in Lebanon are likely the most isolated sect in Lebanon. One who knows the South, Beqaa, Jbeil and the South West Suburbs, knows very well this truth. In addition to the plurality of thoughts and social positions, the Shiite sect insists on refusing the unilateral or bilateral exclusive representation, just like it insists on refusing the political and ideological meetings that result from an unequal representation.

This is how the Shiites were before the occurrence of the civil-regional conflict, which led to scatter their belonging among many leaders. However, a margin always existed for the modern, leftist and other forces. Even the trend established by Imam Moussa Sadr, at the beginning of the 1970s, tried, before being driven by the winds of war, to contain the sectarian plurality through gathering a united popular movement, in addition to directions and people who have no problem with differences and plurality.

The modern meaning of "plurality," called for in the last "gathering," encompasses cultural, professional and economic forces that are considered to be of the same importance of the Martyrs' Square's one, both internally and externally. It is not senseless that the "Amiliyyah" hosts such a meeting, because it embodies the first Shiite attempts to build a new educational and civil institution.

On the other hand, the Lebanese Shiite are traditionally linked to forces abroad. In fact, they have tight relations with Iraq and Iran, both on the cultural and spiritual levels, which led to the occurrence of family ties and switching the residence place. However, these relations were never political ones. Never has the Lebanese Shiites history witnessed someone calling for a "unity" with Iraq, not to mention Iran, because of the sectarian relation. In other words, the "Third Force" is trying to restore this feature of the Lebanese Shiites history. However, by tracing the separation line between the political issues and the cultural-spiritual ones, it is paving the way to a balance that was not always easy between achieving benefits and sticking to cohabitation, and the fact that this sect is the largest one in the country and at the same time, bears a minority and democratic sense imposed by the nature and structure of the country.

The Shiites of the "Third Force" shall present a different Shiite model than those available in the region. Obviously, it is not the Iranian Khomeini model nor an attempt like that of Hezbollah to establish an Islamic Republic in Lebanon. Nevertheless, it is not also a model for the Iraqi Shiites who were driven by Saddam Hussein's savagery to ask for toppling him through the occupation that was thought to be the salvation. Should we add the party attempts made by the elite young members, we notice a Lebanese model, where internal issues play a significant role in changing toward developing a political life, sovereign and democratic, impossible without the Shiite participation.