Only 36% of Lebanese voters are Christian

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Except you can criticize the people in charge and change them when they err

Without changing the system, and breaking sectarian barriers by making it a free system of equity, fairness and equality based on citizenship, and to reflect all of Lebanon fairly, we should not bother wasting time on analysis and beating around the bush. Enjoy the mess! The political system in Lebanon is a mess. The govt./ administrative corruption is even worse than in African countries. Here corruption for instance is carried on with dignified impunity. A govt worker can demand bribe without any sense of guilt or shame.
 

Lebnaouneh

Legendary Member
If the constitution will protect my right as a citizen and the state is providing me all the services they should provide, I wouldn't care less if the President/PM/Ministers/MPs were christian or muslim or jew or atheist or hindu as their private beliefs.
And the only way a state can treat all its citizens equally and provide the same rights is if it is a secular state.

All this talk about numbers and percentages are just pure greed. Basically christians are saying "we're 30-40% of the population, however, we want 50% of the power". Guess what, you won't have it... eventually. The same urge for power/balance is shared among muslims aswell, they would say "we're 60-70% of the population and we want 60-70% of the power" eventually, would you blame them?

I wouldn't blame either part, everyone is trying to gain more powers to its own sect, kind of expected. However, you will all lose in this.

I just don't get why christians push for more secterianism when its obviously a lost battle. A winning battle that would protect them is a secular state, and most importantly rectifying the education system in Lebanon and reducing the religious parties grip over schools since from there comes most secterianism and brainwashing.

PS: in a secterian system, why don't atheists claim and ask for their fair representation? and since numbers don't matter we want 33% of the power!
it would look nice:
33% muslims
33% christians
33% atheists
You’re right, a secular state is the best guarantee for christians and all minorities, PMA and Bassil stated so also on numerous occasions
However, the main guarantor of a secular state, is its secular population
A secular population being nonexistent in Lebanon, removing the less better guarantees for minorities present within the constitution and priviliges in the State would only lead to their complete domination by others
Mind you, Christians are getting far less than half of parliament and getting to parliament exactly the percentage they represent on the ground maybe with a couple of MPs (less than 5) more
The christian president is merely a figure far weaker than the other 2
Muslims are a majority in the administration
 

Lebnaouneh

Legendary Member
Without changing the system, and breaking sectarian barriers by making it a free system of equity, fairness and equality based on citizenship, and to reflect all of Lebanon fairly, we should not bother wasting time on analysis and beating around the bush. Enjoy the mess! The political system in Lebanon is a mess. The corruption is even worse than in African countries.
Anything short of federalism or decentralization will yield the same result if not worse
People are not ready to be secular here
Secularism is not in the laws, its in the spirits, otherwise it would be just another form of dictatorship that would be reversed shortly after with the islamization of laws reflecting the will of the people and ending up marginalizing minorities making them 2nd class citizens in their own countries and being imposed a culture they do not identify with
 

Apostate

Your will, my hands.
Orange Room Supporter
You’re right, a secular state is the best guarantee for christians and all minorities, PMA and Bassil stated so also on numerous occasions
However, the main guarantor of a secular state, is its secular population
A secular population being nonexistent in Lebanon, removing the less better guarantees for minorities present within the constitution and priviliges in the State would only lead to their complete domination by others
Mind you, Christians are getting far less than half of parliament and getting to parliament exactly the percentage they represent on the ground maybe with a couple of MPs (less than 5) more
The christian president is merely a figure far weaker than the other 2
Muslims are a majority in the administration

Agreed that having a secular, or at least not blind secterian, population is a main factor for the success of a secular state.
However, the approach towards achieving that goal is by proper education and enhancing our education system. Christians pushing for more secterianism instead is like shooting themselves in the foot. In my opinion at least :/

Edit: and trust me, I prefer this current system anytime over an islamic dominated system. However, the best solution of all is the secular state. There might be many ways to achieve it, and I don't care which way... I hope it just happens.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Anything short of federalism or decentralization will yield the same result if not worse
People are not ready to be secular here
Secularism is not in the laws, its in the spirits, otherwise it would be just another form of dictatorship that would be reversed shortly after with the islamization of laws reflecting the will of the people and ending up marginalizing minorities making them 2nd class citizens in their own countries and being imposed a culture they do not identify with

Federalism will not work because it will create more internal divisions and place people against each. It becomes each federating unit against the other. And within each unit with mixed communities, there will be hot sectarian competition.

Having a presidential system with the people directly voting, and the president and the vice coming from different religions enshrined in the constitution will work. The cabinet will still be 50/50. Senate will be 50/50. The Parliament will reflect the population proportionally. In other words, we need a new constitution. We are basically breaking barriers whereby govt posts are not monopolized by one community or the other. Or reserved for a particular community. Instead, we are having fair representation and coexistence. Instead of apportioning the presidency to Maronite and pm to Sunnis and speaker to shia, we can have a Muslim president and a christian vice president. A christian senate president and a Muslim deputy senate president. A christian speaker and a Muslim deputy speaker. Or vice versa. It means any lebanese can have the chance to be anything anywhere and in any post. But in the spirit of equity whereby the top two positions are occupied by two men from the two different religions in the country. Its fairness and equity and equal opportunities in the spirit of tolerance and coexistence.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
When it comes to hezballah, I support them 100% as a resistance movement. I support the resistance, armed rsisstance against the Israeli occupation and the takfiri threat from within and without. The support I give to hezballah is not because they are a political party or because I share their political goals as a lebanese individual. Lebanon needs a Lebanese system where everyone, regardless of their religious affiliation is first and foremost a citizen. In a mixed country, the islam I follow does not tell me to lord my identity on others. It is when others try to force their image on me as a Lebanese that I feel threatened.

The problem is that the resistance has been politicized and counter politicized by both sides. The resistance represented by hezballah should be protected and preserved to serve the existence of the entire country. This is a force and power that is a treasure in the hands of all Lebanon. It must be protected and preserved. It should not be politicized. In a secular state, with the right defense strategy, the politicization of the resistance must stop. It must end. Those opposed to the resistance are using their position to trade for money and recognition from foreign patrons and to incite sectarian feelings of their supporters. It is business. Hezballah doesn't need members in Parliament or ministers if its weapons and its existence are upheld by the state as a necessity to protect Lebanon. You can call it a paramilitary group under state recognition, protection and patronage to counter the Israeli threat.

There must be lebanese consensus to protect the resistance as a necessity to protect Lebanon. Stop politicizing the resistance and it will have no need to seek legitimization through politics and elections. If the state can protect the resistance, then the resistance will not need my vote to protect it through political partisanship. And I will not either see need to vote for Hezbollah. Let any individual or party try to contest against amal/hezballah and SHN will come on TV to remind the shia constituency not to betray the resistance. And I dont blame him. He needs my vote and I will give him because I need that resistance down south to protect my village and existence.

Can't believe how brainwashed you must be to think Hizbullah is protecting Lebanon.
Hizbullah bears responsibility for fuelling the Sunni-Shiite strife by aiding an Alawite dictator in Syria. If Hezbollah had stationed its soldiers along the border to deter Isis, their actions would have been justified, but they were fighting in Aleppo.

Lebanon was relatively stable and safe from Israeli aggression, until Hizbullah decided to capture the Israeli soldiers in 2006.

Al Hizbullah is protecting Lebanon al. Funny this protection usually comes with a death toll of thousands.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
You're all delusional talking about federalism and secularism. Lebanon is currently governed by Hizbullah, whether you want to admit or not.

Before we talk about shit, we should seek to secede from the Islamic Republic of Hizbullah.
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
When it comes to hezballah, I support them 100% as a resistance movement. I support the resistance, armed rsisstance against the Israeli occupation and the takfiri threat from within and without. The support I give to hezballah is not because they are a political party or because I share their political goals as a lebanese individual. Lebanon needs a Lebanese system where everyone, regardless of their religious affiliation is first and foremost a citizen. In a mixed country, the islam I follow does not tell me to lord my identity on others. It is when others try to force their image on me as a Lebanese that I feel threatened.

The problem is that the resistance has been politicized and counter politicized by both sides. The resistance represented by hezballah should be protected and preserved to serve the existence of the entire country. This is a force and power that is a treasure in the hands of all Lebanon. It must be protected and preserved. It should not be politicized. In a secular state, with the right defense strategy, the politicization of the resistance must stop. It must end. Those opposed to the resistance are using their position to trade for money and recognition from foreign patrons and to incite sectarian feelings of their supporters. It is business. Hezballah doesn't need members in Parliament or ministers if its weapons and its existence are upheld by the state as a necessity to protect Lebanon. You can call it a paramilitary group under state recognition, protection and patronage to counter the Israeli threat.

There must be lebanese consensus to protect the resistance as a necessity to protect Lebanon. Stop politicizing the resistance and it will have no need to seek legitimization through politics and elections. If the state can protect the resistance, then the resistance will not need my vote to protect it through political partisanship. And I will not either see need to vote for Hezbollah. Let any individual or party try to contest against amal/hezballah and SHN will come on TV to remind the shia constituency not to betray the resistance. And I dont blame him. He needs my vote and I will give him because I need that resistance down south to protect my village and existence.

Indeed Hezbollah is well respected inside Lebanon because of armament and defense. They de facto play an executive role in the State even if this executive role is not institutional. It is imposed on the state by the popular base and not by the political institution. Taking that the National Pact excludes the Shi'a from executive power, Hezbollah managed to include them by might and armament.

The problem Hezbollah faces politically, is that their allies are sectarian and this sectarianism is founded on excluding the Shi'a from executive power and also from political representation in some areas like Meten where in one Da'era while the Shi'a constitute 25% of the registered voters they have no representation at Parliament and they have to vote for their oppressor.
 

Apostate

Your will, my hands.
Orange Room Supporter
You're all delusional talking about federalism and secularism. Lebanon is currently governed by Hizbullah, whether you want to admit or not.

Before we talk about shit, we should seek to secede from the Islamic Republic of Hizbullah.

Before seceding from the Islamic Republic of Hizbullah, we have to convince the christian and muslim lebanese that secularism is the one and only solution to protect everyone. Then seceding from the Islamic Republic rule will come naturally when 70% of the population doesn't support the Islamic Republic rule.

Edit: since at this rate, it wouldn't make a difference if we are ruled by muslim fanatics or christian fanatics (while christians are relatively more tolerant though)... both options sucks... so if we're not heading towards a secular state, we're doomed either way.
 

flag-waver

Legendary Member
7tarna ya 2ar3a...

You want expat votes and now you got it. You discover Christians outside are not as many as Muslims and now you complain looking for shortcuts to gain advantage. The problem with Lebanese Christians is the lack of a sense of fairness towards their Muslim brothers and sisters. Until the system in Lebanon is fair and just, it will continue to hurt all. That simple. People who are opposed to a secular state with civil laws and marriage always hide behind their fingers and pretend it is Muslims who dont want it. When did you care about what others want or dont want?

My opinion is this. We are all LEBANESE and will remain. Whether the Muslim population grows to 90% or not. We must find ways yo coexist without projecting a disparity and preferential treatment. Let us replace the preferential treatment with a fair and just system.

The system needs change. No one can deny it. Those benefiting and those at disadvantage would agree the Lebanese structure and entire political system needs UPROOTING, not just change. It is time for all lebanese to be equal.

What I think is the solution is not science rocket and you can experience it in many religiously mixed countries. Let us try the presidential system in a secular democracy where religion is personal and not public.

Let us have a president and a vice president. Any lebanese from any community can become president or vice president. But both the president and his vice cannot be from the same religion. You can have an orthodox president and an alawite vice president. In a secular state. Abolish the prime minister post. Its purely presidential system with a cabinet (50/50 Muslim and Christians ministers) appointed by the president and his vice. Likewise, we can have a sectarian senate equally divided along sectarian lines with the senate president and the senate deputy president from different religions. Same with the Parliament. Speaker and deputy from different religions. The parliament will be proportional to reflect the population makeup. Let there be fairness, equity and acceptance. Not division, discrimination and stepping on toes. The system should be changed even if that change means advancement or redesigning it.

Popular (direct) vote for the president and the two houses of senate and house of Parliament. It is time to move ahead and join the world.

We can have civil marriage. If you want to conduct a religious ceremony, it should be a personal choice based on freedom to practice your religion and not based on any legal framework. It is simple worship. Do a civil marriage registration in a state court and then you can proceed to the church or mosque and conduct a prayer and religious ceremony to sanctify the Union in God's eye. That simple.

The solution in Lebanon is a lot simple.it is Lebanese who are complicating their lives and empowering sectarianism, racism, discrimination and destroying the future of their children. Lebanese want and choose to be difficult and make life difficult.

After the election, it is time for the major leaders to work to changing the system. That's the only way we can have a fair system. We can still have a fair system where both religions (Christians and Muslims) are represented and have their image preserved in the state.

I don't disagree with what you said. We need a system that protects all sects in the country. I am not complaining about the law nor the expat vote. I dont care if the muslims are 60% of the expat vote. I always knew that the Lebanese outside are 60% muslim and 40% christian.

What I am calling for is one thing. We need to revoke the 1994 law which changed our demographics from 140K now those people are 300-400K. It has increased the population by 10%. They need to revisit this 94 law and then everything can be discussed.

As you said a senate is a must with parity. I have no issue if masalan 15 districts metel now and their is no sectarian allotment in Parliament. I am for the President to have powers and if there is a vice he to have powers also.

Christians have power only in Lebanon and there must be a solution first to make their fears go and then all is up for discussion.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Can't believe how brainwashed you must be to think Hizbullah is protecting Lebanon.
Hizbullah bears responsibility for fuelling the Sunni-Shiite strife by aiding an Alawite dictator in Syria. If Hezbollah had stationed its soldiers along the border to deter Isis, their actions would have been justified, but they were fighting in Aleppo.

Lebanon was relatively stable and safe from Israeli aggression, until Hizbullah decided to capture the Israeli soldiers in 2006.

Al Hizbullah is protecting Lebanon al. Funny this protection usually comes with a death toll of thousands.

The peace Lebanon has experienced, in particular the southern border, since 2006 is unprecedented in the Israeli Arab conflict. No more picnics and free throwing of bombs on lebanese towns and villages by Israeli air force. The 2006 war is the biggest deference to Israel. Hezballah displayed that Israel cannot defeat it or protect itself from the rocket fire.

You can make your point without attacking me or calling me brainwashed.

You expect hezballah to act as a linesman in a football match along the Syrian border in deterring Isis. How stupid is that? So hezballah will not step foot into Syria to fight takfiris who were promising fire and brimstone on shia villages in Lebanon after finishing off with Assad. You say Hezballah should only position itself along the border. You even forget that these takfiris were on Lebanese soil and occupying arsal. And some Lebanese politicians hoping that Assad will fall, even patronized the occupation of arsal by terrorists, hoping that the foreign terrorists will later be employed internally to their selfish gains against their fellow lebanese. You are in a deep slumber and you need to wake up!
 

Lebnaouneh

Legendary Member
Agreed that having a secular, or at least not blind secterian, population is a main factor for the success of a secular state.
However, the approach towards achieving that goal is by proper education and enhancing our education system. Christians pushing for more secterianism instead is like shooting themselves in the foot. In my opinion at least :/

Edit: and trust me, I prefer this current system anytime over an islamic dominated system. However, the best solution of all is the secular state. There might be many ways to achieve it, and I don't care which way... I hope it just happens.
We share the same opinion exactly, we may be differing on what is FPM doing in that regard
Aoun talked about how to get there in his book "Ma vision du Liban" (My vision of Lebanon) that was published in 2007 and stated same as you that it goes through education and progressive change
But are muslim parties willing to head down that road? Civil marriage and they are not allowing it to pass
Having a non sectarian electoral law is simply a way of grabbing power and nothing to do with secularism, this should be the last step
So until then, equilibrium in shares!
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
I don't disagree with what you said. We need a system that protects all sects in the country. I am not complaining about the law nor the expat vote. I dont care if the muslims are 60% of the expat vote. I always knew that the Lebanese outside are 60% muslim and 40% christian.

What I am calling for is one thing. We need to revoke the 1994 law which changed our demographics from 140K now those people are 300-400K. It has increased the population by 10%. They need to revisit this 94 law and then everything can be discussed.

As you said a senate is a must with parity. I have no issue if masalan 15 districts metel now and their is no sectarian allotment in Parliament. I am for the President to have powers and if there is a vice he to have powers also.

Christians have power only in Lebanon and there must be a solution first to make their fears go and then all is up for discussion.

I agree with you. Even if the system is to be changed, and the president is no longer a christian, the christian presence must be preserved and protected and sustained in govt and in the country at large. If the president is Muslim, the vice cannot be Muslim. If the president is Christian, the vice will be Muslim. Same with the senate leadership and the parliamentary leadership. The cabinet will be divided equally.

The only thing changed of major importance is the sectarian monopolization of certain posts. All posts will be open to all lebanese of all sects and with fair representation whereby if the number one is Muslim, the number two must be Christian; and if the number one is christian, the number two is Muslim. This would be openness, fairness and equity.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The peace Lebanon has experienced, in particular the southern border, since 2006 is unprecedented in the Israeli Arab conflict. No more picnics and free throwing of bombs on lebanese towns and villages by Israeli air force. The 2006 war is the biggest deference to Israel. Hezballah displayed that Israel cannot defeat it or protect itself from the rocket fire.

You can make your point without attacking me or calling me brainwashed.

You expect hezballah to act as a linesman in a football match along the Syrian border in deterring Isis. How stupid is that? So hezballah will not step foot into Syria to fight takfiris who were promising fire and brimstone on shia villages in Lebanon after finishing off with Assad. You say Hezballah should only position itself along the border. You even forget that these takfiris were on Lebanese soil and occupying arsal. And some Lebanese politicians hoping that Assad will fall, even patronized the occupation of arsal by terrorists, hoping that the foreign terrorists will later be employed internally to their selfish gains against their fellow lebanese. You are in a deep slumber and you need to wake up!

So they are able to deter the world's 4th strongest army without stepping in Tel Aviv, but when it comes to fighting Isis they have to go all the way to Aleppo?
 

Lebnaouneh

Legendary Member
Federalism will not work because it will create more internal divisions and place people against each. It becomes each federating unit against the other. And within each unit with mixed communities, there will be hot sectarian competition.

Having a presidential system with the people directly voting, and the president and the vice coming from different religions enshrined in the constitution will work. The cabinet will still be 50/50. Senate will be 50/50. The Parliament will reflect the population proportionally. In other words, we need a new constitution. We are basically breaking barriers whereby govt posts are not monopolized by one community or the other. Or reserved for a particular community. Instead, we are having fair representation and coexistence. Instead of apportioning the presidency to Maronite and pm to Sunnis and speaker to shia, we can have a Muslim president and a christian vice president. A christian senate president and a Muslim deputy senate president. A christian speaker and a Muslim deputy speaker. Or vice versa. It means any lebanese can have the chance to be anything anywhere and in any post. But in the spirit of equity whereby the top two positions are occupied by two men from the two different religions in the country. Its fairness and equity and equal opportunities in the spirit of tolerance and coexistence.
People are placed against each other when you put the powers in the hands of a single power entity, here the competition starts to control it!
Let each live peacefully in his region and no one will try to put his hand on his neighbor's share as it will be too costly
 

Lebnaouneh

Legendary Member
Can't believe how brainwashed you must be to think Hizbullah is protecting Lebanon.
Hizbullah bears responsibility for fuelling the Sunni-Shiite strife by aiding an Alawite dictator in Syria. If Hezbollah had stationed its soldiers along the border to deter Isis, their actions would have been justified, but they were fighting in Aleppo.

Lebanon was relatively stable and safe from Israeli aggression, until Hizbullah decided to capture the Israeli soldiers in 2006.

Al Hizbullah is protecting Lebanon al. Funny this protection usually comes with a death toll of thousands.
Had there not been Hezbollah, Israel would have not allowed us to extract our oil and would have stolen it
Also, Israel and Trump would have gotten their wish of settling the 2 million syrian/palestinian refugees on our land to settle this issue on our expense
Not to mention when ISIS got to Bekaa and Hezbollah repelled them, even my LF friends of Bekaa give credit to Hezbollah for stopping them as they were hearing the ISI shelling from their homes
Those are 2 strategic matters that Hezbollah undeniably protected us from
Try to be objective...
 
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