Only 36% of Lebanese voters are Christian

Rafidi

Legendary Member
You're all delusional talking about federalism and secularism. Lebanon is currently governed by Hizbullah, whether you want to admit or not.

Before we talk about shit, we should seek to secede from the Islamic Republic of Hizbullah.

Attacking hezballah and making it the problem will not give you any solution or remedy. It will only give you more political resistance internally and people like me will only be more convinced that the resistance needs protection internally. Hezballah needs to be protected by the state. The resistance should not be politicized. Then, we can talk of a defense strategy and form a secular state without religious parties or where religious parties will not be in vogue even if they can have the right to participate.

Take for example in the Sunni community. The jamaa al islamiyyah are not prominent. The future movement is under a non clerical leadership. Hezballah can be the same like the jamaa al islamiyyah without politicizing the resistance. The resistance must be protected, not victimized. When you victimize the resistance and politicize it and try to milk it for gains, the shia constituency will have no option to vote for secular candidates. They will realize the need to protect the resistance with their votes. Whether with secularism or with sectarianism, protecting the reistsnace is a need and it will be done either by the secular state or by the people.
 

Lebnaouneh

Legendary Member
So they are able to deter the world's 4th strongest army without stepping in Tel Aviv, but when it comes to fighting Isis they have to go all the way to Aleppo?
Israel has unparalleled air superiority as well as nukes and endless US support
Surviving against their attacks is one thing, invading them is a whole other on its own
Being able to be a deterrence force is already an impressive achievement
 

Apostate

Your will, my hands.
Orange Room Supporter
We share the same opinion exactly, we may be differing on what is FPM doing in that regard
Aoun talked about how to get there in his book "Ma vision du Liban" (My vision of Lebanon) that was published in 2007 and stated same as you that it goes through education and progressive change
But are muslim parties willing to head down that road? Civil marriage and they are not allowing it to pass
Having a non sectarian electoral law is simply a way of grabbing power and nothing to do with secularism, this should be the last step
So until then, equilibrium in shares!

Wind of change is coming, I don't know how much you interact with lebanese muslims, however, personally I've been seeing alot muslims getting less and less religious. Heck, recently I've been meeting alot of newly atheists/agnostics ex-muslims.

Reducing the secterianism in the country, at least the secterian talk, would ease alot of secterian and religious feelings :)
 

flag-waver

Legendary Member
I agree with you. Even if the system is to be changed, and the president is no longer a christian, the christian presence must be preserved and protected and sustained in govt and in the country at large. If the president is Muslim, the vice cannot be Muslim. If the president is Christian, the vice will be Muslim. Same with the senate leadership and the parliamentary leadership. The cabinet will be divided equally.

The only thing changed of major importance is the sectarian monopolization of certain posts. All posts will be open to all lebanese of all sects and with fair representation whereby if the number one is Muslim, the number two must be Christian; and if the number one is christian, the number two is Muslim. This would be openness, fairness and equity.

Question.
Do you really think that currently that the christians have the best Grade 1 posts in the country?
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I don't disagree with what you said. We need a system that protects all sects in the country. I am not complaining about the law nor the expat vote. I dont care if the muslims are 60% of the expat vote. I always knew that the Lebanese outside are 60% muslim and 40% christian.

What I am calling for is one thing. We need to revoke the 1994 law which changed our demographics from 140K now those people are 300-400K. It has increased the population by 10%. They need to revisit this 94 law and then everything can be discussed.

As you said a senate is a must with parity. I have no issue if masalan 15 districts metel now and their is no sectarian allotment in Parliament. I am for the President to have powers and if there is a vice he to have powers also.

Christians have power only in Lebanon and there must be a solution first to make their fears go and then all is up for discussion.

I will only trust Maronites in government when they change the name of the Armenian Orthodox seat in Burj Hammooud to Orthodox only. Then Lebanese Shi'a from Burj Hammoud can convert to Orthodox and be qualified to apply for Parliamentary elections as candidates.

Not only that Armenian is not Lebanese, but an ethnicity that is foreign, but also a Shi'a cannot convert to Armenian and qualify for the seat. Why not have a seat in Parliament called Palestinian Sunnis. I think this would be at par with Armenian Orthodox. We may also get a few Syrians and make a seat for Syrian Sunnis and Syrian Orthodox.
 

flag-waver

Legendary Member
I will only trust Maronites in government when they change the name of the Armenian Orthodox seat in Burj Hammooud to Orthodox only. Then Lebanese Shi'a from Burj Hammoud can convert to Orthodox and be qualified to apply for Parliamentary elections as candidates.

Not only that Armenian is not Lebanese, but an ethnicity that is foreign, but also a Shi'a cannot convert to Armenian and qualify for the seat. Why not have a seat in Parliament called Palestinian Sunnis. I think this would be at par with Armenian Orthodox. We may also get a few Syrians and make a seat for Syrian Sunnis and Syrian Orthodox.

Who are you aslan to trust maronites in the government? You don't even have Lebanese citizenship.
 

Lebnaouneh

Legendary Member
Wind of change is coming, I don't know how much you interact with lebanese muslims, however, personally I've been seeing alot muslims getting less and less religious. Heck, recently I've been meeting alot of newly atheists/agnostics ex-muslims.

Reducing the secterianism in the country, at least the secterian talk, would ease alot of secterian and religious feelings :)
I believe so too
The problem is Hezbollah is a major religious entity within the Shia community, and as long as the resistance is needed, Shia will not be willing to fight it ideologically to not weaken it and they are right as the Israeli threat is a devastating one if left unchecked
And you cannot build a fully secular state without the Shia joining in
So until further notice...I believe only cosmetics will be applied here and there
In all cases, Sunnis and Christians aren't even ready yet, we could be using that time to improve our education system and raise better generations and start getting this culture more and more prominent within society
 

Apostate

Your will, my hands.
Orange Room Supporter
I believe so too
The problem is Hezbollah is a major religious entity within the Shia community, and as long as the resistance is needed, Shia will not be willing to fight it ideologically to not weaken it and they are right as the Israeli threat is a devastating one if left unchecked
And you cannot build a fully secular state without the Shia joining in
So until further notice...I believe only cosmetics will be applied here and there
In all cases, Sunnis and Christians aren't even ready yet, we could be using that time to improve our education system and raise better generations and start getting this culture more and more prominent within society

Yep improving our education is a must and the best step to start with.
And hopefully everyone joins in building a strong and fair state someday!
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I believe so too
The problem is Hezbollah is a major religious entity within the Shia community, and as long as the resistance is needed, Shia will not be willing to fight it ideologically to not weaken it and they are right as the Israeli threat is a devastating one if left unchecked
And you cannot build a fully secular state without the Shia joining in
So until further notice...I believe only cosmetics will be applied here and there
In all cases, Sunnis and Christians aren't even ready yet, we could be using that time to improve our education system and raise better generations and start getting this culture more and more prominent within society

In order to improve the education system and build new generations you need a secular government and parliament that believe in the principles they teach. Sectarian leadership will only build sectarian identities for the generations to come.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Indeed Hezbollah is well respected inside Lebanon because of armament and defense. They de facto play an executive role in the State even if this executive role is not institutional. It is imposed on the state by the popular base and not by the political institution. Taking that the National Pact excludes the Shi'a from executive power, Hezbollah managed to include them by might and armament.

The problem Hezbollah faces politically, is that their allies are sectarian and this sectarianism is founded on excluding the Shi'a from executive power and also from political representation in some areas like Meten where in one Da'era while the Shi'a constitute 25% of the registered voters they have no representation at Parliament and they have to vote for their oppressor.

That can be solved with proportionality and Lebanon as a single electoral district. Lebanese anywhere will have an equal voice. The christian in rmeish and the shia in metn will both have their votes count.

The executive posts are restricted to certain sects and its wrong. Same with the other posts. Christians can have their fears taken care of and guarantees made to preserve their existence politically. Open the govt positions to all lebanese. Give the top two seats to each position to the two different religions. A christian president and a Muslim vice. A Muslim senate president and a christian vice. A christian speaker and a Muslim vice. Or vice versa. The sectarian barrier must be broken whereby any Lebanese can occupy any position in the country. No sectarian divisions and no discrimination and no sectarian limitations or barriers by monopolizing posts by sects.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Wind of change is coming, I don't know how much you interact with lebanese muslims, however, personally I've been seeing alot muslims getting less and less religious. Heck, recently I've been meeting alot of newly atheists/agnostics ex-muslims.

Reducing the secterianism in the country, at least the secterian talk, would ease alot of secterian and religious feelings :)

The truth is you realize as a lebanese from a mixed country like Lebanon that one religion cannot dominate. We must all live together as Lebanese and open up and share power. Religion should be a personal choice in a personal space in a mixed country.
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
That can be solved with proportionality and Lebanon as a single electoral district. Lebanese anywhere will have an equal voice. The christian in rmeish and the shia in metn will both have their votes count.

The executive posts are restricted to certain sects and its wrong. Same with the other posts. Christians can have their fears taken care of and guarantees made to preserve their existence politically. Open the govt positions to all lebanese. Give the top two seats to each position to the two different religions. A christian president and a Muslim vice. A Muslim senate president and a christian vice. A christian speaker and a Muslim vice. Or vice versa. The sectarian barrier must be broken whereby any Lebanese can occupy any position in the country. No sectarian divisions and no discrimination and no sectarian limitations or barriers by monopolizing posts by sects.

Why should they be called Christians to start with, they can also be Lebanese and compete with other Lebanese as human beings and citizens of Lebanon.

The Shi'a fears stem from the reality where Armenians and Palestinians may take over the country because of a system that is designed to destroy the history of Lebanon, its culture and its heritage and its identity and change such history and identity into a Sunni and a Christian identity deriving their legitimacy from historic Conquests and forced conversions enforced by the conquerors. They speak the language of occupation and identity formation based on their imperial past and occupation of Lebanon, a historical state that is neither Christian nor Sunni.

We live in their world of Conquest and forced conversion as they neatly transfer it into the modern world by playing victim when they oppress. They are the only victim that is sovereign in history. This is they play victim when they are the law.

The system should be eliminated so that Lebanon can be established as a country of a rich and pluralist history. Lebanon existed before Christianity or Sunni Islam. These two identities eliminate the identities that preexisted them so that they may become sovereign.
 

Lebnaouneh

Legendary Member
In order to improve the education system and build new generations you need a secular government and parliament that believe in the principles they teach. Sectarian leadership will only build sectarian identities for the generations to come.
leaders come last its a known saying
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
leaders come last its a known saying

No it is not known that leaders come last. It is known that leaders come first, and they mobilize revolutions that radically change systems and install new systems imposing the revolutionary values. Historical and evident examples may be drawn from the American Revolution and the leadership of George Washington, The Russian Revolution and the leadership of Vladimir Lenin, the Chinese Revolution and the Leadership of Mao Zedong, the Iranian Revolution and Imam Khomeini.

In the history of our religious and cultural practices we speak of a Moses who liberated the Israelites.

Leadership is the key to change, mobilization and recruitment. This is why the new type of government promoted by the new political party Saba'a will not fly an inch. They have money, they have educated people, they have stolen all the slogans of civil society and made them their own. But they lack charismatic leadership.

Iran is much smarter when they know that it is the charisma of Sayed Hassan Nasrallah that guarantees support. Charismatic leadership comes before mobilization and it is key to recruitment.

ISIS failed, because it was an intelligence operation puppeteered by somebody in the shadow, while having no central charismatic leader guiding the process of recruitment.
 
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gramsci

Legendary Member
One minute federation, one minute merging with Syrian Christians...continue with this sectarian retarded christian mentality and in the next 50 years you will end up 5%.

Work for true fairness, justice, proportionality, equity and you will become true partners and nationalists.

The quest to dominate will fail you. Gebran should know that too.

Work on kicking the corrupt leaders of yours , like the criminal that u have as avataar, and select people who work for your community before giving any lessons to christians how to defend and protect their community and their survival.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I don't believe there's a big cultural gap between Lebanese Christians and Muslims.
Most urbanized Lebanese youth are shunning old traditions and adopting a more Western lifestyle, whether they're Christian or Muslim.
If you go to Mar Mikhael, you'd notice that half of the clientele is Muslim.

The cultural differences exist mainly between the Hizbullah community/Jame3a Islemiyyeh/Salafists and the rest of Lebanon.

That's why there's a perceived cultural divide between Muslims and Christians. But in truth, it's a divide between Christians/secular Sunnis/secular Shiites on one side and Shia and Sunni Islamists on the other side.
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Work on kicking the corrupt leaders of yours , like the criminal that u have as avataar, and select people who work for your community before giving any lessons to christians how to defend and protect their community and their survival.

What did he do to you to call him a criminal. I wonder why you waste your time criticizing the representative of the Shi'a in Parliament and we never hear about the criminal your are voting for, I mean a bit of self criticism is what makes an argument hold some validity.

I see all Christians not wanting Berri and attacking Berri, when he is not their representative and they do not vote for him. I wonder why.

Tell us what you are doing to change the leadership that is representing your own sect. It is Christians who are sovereign and they are the executive power. This is not Berri.'

Berri is good. I like him because it seems to me that all sectarian Christians hate him for some reason and I am certain this reason is within sectarianism. It is he does not submit or convert under the Christian sword, like Hezbollah does.
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Question.
Do you really think that currently that the christians have the best Grade 1 posts in the country?

Christians have 50% of Parliament. They have the top position of executive. This is the President. They have the command of the Army. These are facts.

Hezbollah balanced this power through armament from Iran and could de-facto balance this Christian power outside the institution and the constitution and with popular support. See how fake is this type of system you support is. In actuality, it does not exist as a power. It only gets paid 50% of Members of Parliament salaries from the Muslim Lebanese public to stay in government out of greed. It is greed that governs the National Pact not the country or the people the Pact is governing. It is so shallow.
 
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