Palestinians exchanging the LEBANESE flag with the palestinian one in Nahr el Bered

[taifoon]

It makes no sense at all that the army had to destroy thousands of homes in order to fight 300 men, they flattened the whole camp, did you see the pictures, no wonder why the army doesn't want pictures taken and journalist in, they will document how barbaric the army was.

Bala barbaric bala art 7ake 3al fade.. The civilians were evacuated. You are crying on rubbles??? Shidd 7alak ya Shangleesh, and get back to where you left. I asked you about a suggestion for catching those criminals, and you answered: Negotiations.. I followed you and told you about those negotiations and how they were punctered every time by FEI. Tab, what do you suggest next? Negotiate until few more hundred lebanese soldiers are snipered dead? What says Shangleesh next?

 

[fidelio]

It makes no sense at all that the army had to destroy thousands of homes in order to fight 300 men, they flattened the whole camp, did you see the pictures, no wonder why the army doesn't want pictures taken and journalist in, they will document how barbaric the army was.

You obviously have noidea about the elaborate tunneling and the bunker systems they used to have in the camp. Those "palestinian" structures needed to be destroyed, sooner better than later.
The army didn't let the journalists inside the camp because of the improvised explosives the militia left behind. You wouldn't want hasty journalists dying for a scoop now do you?

 

[Shangleesh]

Bala barbaric bala art 7ake 3al fade.. The civilians were evacuated. You are srying on rubbles??? Shidd 7alak ya Shangleesh, and get back to where you left. I asked you about a suggestion for catching those criminals, and you answered: Negotiations.. I followed you and told you about those negotiations and how they were punctered every time by FEI. Tab, what do you suggest next? Negotiate until few more hundred lebanese soldiers are snipered dead? What says Shangleesh next?

Do you believe that the gov't was behind FEI?

 

[Shangleesh]

You obviously have noidea about the elaborate tunneling and the bunker systems they used to have in the camp. Those "palestinian" structures needed to be destroyed, sooner better than later.
The army didn't let the journalists inside the camp because of the improvised explosives the militia left behind. You wouldn't want hasty journalists dying for a scoop now do you?

Damn the army can tell you anything and you will swallow it.

This make me understand the civil war times better because people don't question anything in this country it seems.

 

[3asheq Beirut]

You obviously have noidea about the elaborate tunneling and the bunker systems they used to have in the camp. Those "palestinian" structures needed to be destroyed, sooner better than later.
The army didn't let the journalists inside the camp because of the improvised explosives the militia left behind. You wouldn't want hasty journalists dying for a scoop now do you?

Fidelio,

Civilians have been allowed into the camp. Some NGO's have been allowed into the camp. Only journalists and anyone with a camera are not allowed. Are you saying the Army is worried for the lives of journalists and people with cameras only? Do booby traps only work if you are carrying a camera? Come on, you have to admit there is something fishy.

 

[taifoon]

And their arms must go ASAP bas not by using force, but by negotiations. If I was Palestinian, and heard what some Lebanese say about me I wouldn't want to give up those arms. We need to build trust and we can not do it while we keep accusing them of every wrong thing in this country and advocating their massacre and killing.

You don't hold arms pointed at somes head and ask him to start building trust, do you? You, guest, me, unarmed, how are you supposed to build trust with your host, when the mere mentioning of your name and armed presence reminds him of the horrors you did him? Disarm, guest, that is your first duty. What comes next will abide by the conventional procedure between guest and host.

 

[Shangleesh]

You don't hold arms pointed at somes head and ask him to start building trust, do you?

That is what we are doing with them.

 

[fidelio]

Damn the army can tell you anything and you will swallow it.

This make me understand the civil war times better because people don't question anything in this country it seems.

Fidelio,

Civilians have been allowed into the camp. Some NGO's have been allowed into the camp. Only journalists and anyone with a camera are not allowed. Are you saying the Army is worried for the lives of journalists and people with cameras only? Do booby traps only work if you are carrying a camera? Come on, you have to admit there is something fishy.

The NGOs and the few civilians were escorted in by the army.

 

[Shangleesh]

The NGOs and the few civilians were escorted in by the army.

And the same can be done with the journalist.

People have been allowed in even without the army but they are searched when they leave to make sure they didn't take any pictures.

 

[taifoon]

Do you believe that the gov't was behind FEI?

I do beleive that elements in the government were directly behind FEI. What do you beleive the army should have done to extinguish them? Now that negotiations did not work with them?

 

[taifoon]

That is what we are doing with them.

How's that? Lebanese army is by definition lebanese and also armed.

 

[Shangleesh]

I do beleive that elements in the government were directly behind FEI. What do you beleive the army should have done to extinguish them? Now that negotiations did not work with them?

Ok, so if you beleive that elements of the gov't were behind them, don't you worry why they were so adamant to crush this group in order to make sure no information comes out, so the ties aren't revealed, the gov't wanted this group fully crushed from day one, they never offered any real alternative.

The army basically said let us kill you outside the camp or inside the camp and they chose inside the camp.

 

[Aoune]

Shangleesh i guess u r the only person that is enlghtened because you question everything . Trust me we all do .

 

[Shangleesh]

How's that? Lebanese army is by definition lebanese and also armed.

I'm not talking about that, i'm talking about having guns to their heads and wanting to build trust like you said is impossible.

 

[Shangleesh]

Shangleesh i guess u r the only person that is enlghtened because you question everything . Trust me we all do .

I'm not saying i'm the only person enlightened, not at all, but i am very critical of this situation and rightfully so.

I don't buy everything the army and gov't sells me.

 

[3asheq Beirut]

You don't hold arms pointed at somes head and ask him to start building trust, do you? You, guest, me, unarmed, how are you supposed to build trust with your host, when the mere mentioning of your name and armed presence reminds him of the horrors you did him? Disarm, guest, that is your first duty. What comes next will abide by the conventional procedure between guest and host.

Taifoon,

I know you don't see it, but the very way in which we view the Palestinians has racist undertones. The Palestinians are not "guests". They are people who have lived on the same land as us for generations now. They are humans and should be treated like any other human, Lebanese or not. Do you believe that they should be confined to camps? Do you believe that they should be prohibited from working, learning, and carrying on lives like any other Lebanese? If you do, then how can you come and preach to them about rights, law, respect, etc.? The problem is that many Lebanese hold the attitude that the Palestinians should live in their miserable camps, shut up, and just be thankful that the Lebanese even tolerate them. Well, I'm sorry, but they are people. They have feelings, they have pride and dignity. You can't humiliate a human being and expect him/her to just accept it. We have to revise the way we look at Palestinians or the problem is only going to get worse.

 

[fidelio]

Taifoon,

I know you don't see it, but the very way in which we view the Palestinians has racist undertones. The Palestinians are not "guests". They are people who have lived on the same land as us for generations now. They are humans and should be treated like any other human, Lebanese or not. Do you believe that they should be confined to camps? Do you believe that they should be prohibited from working, learning, and carrying on lives like any other Lebanese? If you do, then how can you come and preach to them about rights, law, respect, etc.? The problem is that many Lebanese hold the attitude that the Palestinians should live in their miserable camps, shut up, and just be thankful that the Lebanese even tolerate them. Well, I'm sorry, but they are people. They have feelings, they have pride and dignity. You can't humiliate a human being and expect him/her to just accept it. We have to revise the way we look at Palestinians or the problem is only going to get worse.

Do they need heavy artillery to feel pride?

 

[Shangleesh]

Do they need heavy artillery to feel pride?

Well if you need to flatten thousands of homes to feel pride than maybe they do need artillery to feel safe.

And you still didn't address the issue of journalist being denied entry in the camps.

 

[fidelio]

Well if you need to flatten thousands of homes to feel pride than maybe they do need artillery to feel safe.

And you still didn't address the issue of journalist being denied entry in the camps.

Shangleesh, don't be too hasty in judging people, i'm against destroying any innocent man's dwelling, but i'm also against seeing armed palestinian factions in camps, especially when they skirmish with the army and threaten people's lives.
now about the journalists, to cut the story short, what do you believe the army was trying to hide?

 

[taifoon]

Taifoon,

Do you deny that many Lebanese have utter hatred for Palestinians? Have you not read posts here that blame the Palestinians for FeI? Did you not see posts that said that they are willing to kill all Palestinians to save on Lebanese soldier? There is definitely a racist attitude when it comes to Palestinians by many Lebanese. I am not saying all Lebanese are like that and I am not disputing that in general human beings empathize with each other. But the fact of the matter is that many Lebanese have been brainwashed into hating Palestinians.

In addition, we must take a step back and be able to criticize ourselves. People here say that no one is allowed to talk abou the Lebanese Army. Really? And what is that supposed to mean? Then all peoples and countries can claim the same and no one would ever be able to criticize any potentially harmful activity carried out by their respective army. What if Syrians say no one is allowed to criticize the Syrian Army and whatever they do is 7alal. We have to have the courage and the principle to identify wrongdoings no matter who does them.

Taifoon,

I understand that the Lebanese Army did not need the government's approval to carry out this attack. But isn't it even a slight possibility that the Army was exploited and trapped in a fight with a group inside a Palestinian camp? The story of the murdered Lebanese soldiers still doesn't make sense. Why would FeI go into an Army camp and massacre army soldiers when they were trying to get away from the ISF? Why didn't they massacre ISF officers? I feel like this whole thing smells rotten, and if you think that it has changed anything in Lebanon then think again. Some people here declare that "Ain el-Helweh" is next as if they have any say in where the Army fights its battles. And do you seriously believe that the Army is now going to disarm all armed factions in Lebanon? This battle in Nahr el-Bared did not solve any of Lebanon's underlying problems. Sure FeI was dissolved, and believe me I am thankful for that, but looking at the big picture, what has changed?

No, i do not deny that hatred is the most salient spice in our lebanese soup, and that every community has a guaranteed share of that soup, including the palestinians. Moreover, we also happen to be every regional cooks experimental kitchen and FEI was/is apparently one such tabkha. Nevertheless, when you know that you are landed on a mined field and will have to walk your life slowly and carefully, step by step, your options for survival are much narrowed, basically down to the slow move of each step you take..

Look at the FEI events with this analogy in mind, and you may understand the perspective of the lebanese army. Even if it was a trap, the army just had to handle it exactly the way it did, since neither negotiations nor total capitulation and repent was expected from fanatics who were explicitly raised, called upon and gathered, to make already bad things worse.