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Palestinians exchanging the LEBANESE flag with the palestinian one in Nahr el Bered

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Shangleesh

New Member
Shangleesh, don't be too hasty in judging people, i'm against destroying any innocent man's dwelling, but i'm also against seeing armed palestinian factions in camps, especially when they skirmish with the army and threaten people's lives.
now about the journalists, to cut the story short, what do you believe the army was trying to hide?

Whatever it is they are trying to hide, it is something.

In my opinion they are hiding the excessive damage.

They turned the camp into Dresden or Tokyo because of 300 guys.

It is embarrassing first of all if they did it to really destroy FEI but if the goal was to destroy the camp and not FEI than it is also bad news.
 

Moonlapse

Active Member
لم تكد اول قافلة للفلسطينيين العائدين الى مخيم نهر البارد في قسمه الجديد تحط رحالها في ما تبقى من منازل وابنية لم تهدم بفعل الاشتباكات التي دارت منذ 20 ايار الفائت بين الجيش اللبناني وعناصر تنظيم "فتح الاسلام" وانتهت في 2 ايلول المنصرم بتقهقر وانهزام ما تبقى من فلول المسلحين حتى بدأت الممارسات الفلسطينية اللامسؤولة تطل برأسها متعرضة للجيش اللبناني الذي قدم نحو 165 شهيداً من خيرة عناصره في نهر البارد، اذ عمد عدد من الصبية اليافعين الى رشق عناصر الجيش المتواجدين في المخيم بالحجارة وكيل الشتائم لهم كما استبدل العائدون الاعلام اللبنانية المرفوعة داخل المخيم بأخرى فلسطينية ما حدا بالجيش لاتخاذ سلسلة اجراءات تحد من الممارسات الشاذة وتضع الامور في نصابها

To these jerks we say, mess with the LEBANESE ARMY or ANY LEBANESE CITIZEN and you will get screwed & roasted whether you are kids, men or women.

Iktada el tawdih

Mouwatin loubnani 7orr



Words are not enough. Someone in Lebanon needs to follow the example set by King Hussein of Jordan, God rest his soul.

You welcome a Palestinian into your land and treat him like a human being, he'll take it as a sign of weakness and try to bury you in your own soil. A Palestinian understands only the language of violence, and a wise leader would drive them into the sea and let the rest of the world worry about them. Let Israel, the U.S., Britian, KSA, Syria, Iran find a home for them; they have plenty of room to squeeze them in. Had the Palestinians respected the country that provided them refuge and honored Lebanese law, they would have been living freely amongst us in humane conditions. Unfortunately, since the day they arrived here they've done nothing but spit on the Lebanese people and disregarded our sovereignty. Whatever they get now, they deserve it.
 

fidelio

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Whatever it is they are trying to hide, it is something.

In my opinion they are hiding the excessive damage.

They turned the camp into Dresden or Tokyo because of 300 guys.

It is embarrassing first of all if they did it to really destroy FEI but if the goal was to destroy the camp and not FEI than it is also bad news.

Shangleesh, the excessive damage is known fact, it was photographed, filmed and blogged all over the place, nobody's denying it and the fact that the army denied the reporters from going inside the camp to "hide" the damage is silly. I'm sorry but it is.
Second of all, with the army's current training and equipment, they sure did a plausible job in eradicating this terrorist cell and its hideouts, and the only way it could have done so is by destroying the buildings. FEI was also a threat to the innocent palestinians inside the camp.
Now if you want to go as far as saying that the army deliberately flattened the camp for some unknown reason, then you should at least hint as to what that reason is, other than that, you're just criticizing for the sake of maybe trying to find an argument.
 

Shangleesh

New Member
Shangleesh, the excessive damage is known fact, it was photographed, filmed and blogged all over the place, nobody's denying it and the fact that the army denied the reporters from going inside the camp to "hide" the damage is silly. I'm sorry but it is.
Second of all, with the army's current training and equipment, they sure did a plausible job in eradicating this terrorist cell and its hideouts, and the only way it could have done so is by destroying the buildings. FEI was also a threat to the innocent palestinians inside the camp.
Now if you want to go as far as saying that the army deliberately flattened the camp for some unknown reason, then you should at least hint as to what that reason is, other than that, you're just criticizing for the sake of maybe trying to find an argument.

Believe what you want, the journalist are allowed access to the camp, whatever you say.
 

Shuyu3i

New Member
Shangleesh, stop talking about the LAF. The LAF ashraf mien any group or leaders we have in this country. It's sad that a lebanese is talking bad about the army. This army had to go through alot these past 2 years. They handled it well although both sides of politics don't care about the country, the army always will.
 

Shangleesh

New Member
Shangleesh, stop talking about the LAF. The LAF ashraf mien any group or leaders we have in this country. It's sad that a lebanese is talking about the army.

I am not attacking individual soldiers, calm down and read what i am saying.

I am attacking mainly who they take orders from, you cannot separate the two institutions.

Thats like an American soldier invades Lebanon and you say, i am not going to attack the soldier he is just doing his job, it is George Bushs fault, it doesn't matter, without the soldier the gov't can do what it wants.

You can't sit back and leave the army alone just because they take orders.
 

fidelio

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I am not attacking individual soldiers, calm down and read what i am saying.

I am attacking mainly who they take orders from, you cannot separate the two institutions.

Thats like an American soldier invades Lebanon and you say, i am not going to attack the soldier he is just doing his job, it is George Bushs fault, it doesn't matter, without the soldier the gov't can do what it wants.

You can't sit back and leave the army alone because they take orders.

Shangleesh, just cut to the chase, if you have a certain theory as to why the army shelled the camp other than to flatten the FEI heads down, just spill it out, anything else you say is just beating around the bush.
 

Shangleesh

New Member
Shangleesh, just cut to the chase, if you have a certain theory as to why the army shelled the camp other than to flatten the FEI heads down, just spill it out, anything else you say is just beating around the bush.

Do i have to know all the answers in order to believe something is suspicious and wrong?

I do not believe we had to turn the camp into Hiroshima in order to get rid of 300 fanatics and anybody who does frankly is naive and should have a masaysa bi timun.
 

Dalzi

Legendary Member
What's with all this rage??? Each and everyone of us should thank God a million times that s/he wasn't born in Palestine coz we would've done worse than any other nation. The Lebanese are not any better, we had too bloody civil wars and maybe a third one's coming. We hate each other more than our enemies hate us. So all this we we we is making me sick.

The Palestinians are a people, like all others. Stop this barbaric racism.

Of course as Lebanese, our country and army are our number one priority, we all learnt our lessons the hard way. So no one has the right to insult any army member who lost his life fighting while we were playing games.

On the other hand, no one has the right to insult the Palestinians who are suffering much more than we are.

This thread is making me sick.
 

taifoon

Well-Known Member
Taifoon,

I know you don't see it, but the very way in which we view the Palestinians has racist undertones. The Palestinians are not "guests". They are people who have lived on the same land as us for generations now. They are humans and should be treated like any other human, Lebanese or not. Do you believe that they should be confined to camps? Do you believe that they should be prohibited from working, learning, and carrying on lives like any other Lebanese? If you do, then how can you come and preach to them about rights, law, respect, etc.? The problem is that many Lebanese hold the attitude that the Palestinians should live in their miserable camps, shut up, and just be thankful that the Lebanese even tolerate them. Well, I'm sorry, but they are people. They have feelings, they have pride and dignity. You can't humiliate a human being and expect him/her to just accept it. We have to revise the way we look at Palestinians or the problem is only going to get worse.

There's a possible basic human aspect missing here, maybe by both you and me. I completly understand what you say 3asheq, i really do, and you are absolutly correct about the issue of poverty, lack of basic human civic and social rights which the palestinians suffer under. That should definetly be dealt with. I personally know few palestinian families, among the best one can wish for for neighbours, whose grown up and well behaving children have in fact nothing to do with Palestine except the label AND the restrictions we have put on them. That is UTMOST discrimation and i have no problem in admitting this and also asking for better conditions to those people. As i mentioned before, you will hardly find people here denying a human brother or sister, irrespective of nationalities, their basic human rights, whoever does that is either lying, a hypocrite or simply needs some medications.

Now to the dark side of the moon: Had it been under normal political, social and economical evolutionary terms that we had found ourselves talking to each other here, such discussion would probably never have taken place. Under heavy intellectual load interaction, we people may get at the most 20% rational but remain up to 80% emotional, by design of nature. Thus come the relatively fresh memories of our civil war and the mental wounds start to burn. Only ostrishes will not admit that the armed palestinian presence was directly behind the ignition and propagation of that war. What many people still see today is: Well, nothing new on that front. The same, if not more, weapons are still there and so are those armed factions. And here comes some logic in handy and adds to this the following insight:

When the palestinians were once welcomed in, the hatred component must assumingly have been missing, or at least generally not so widespread as of today, and yet poverty and lack of basic rights were more or less the same.. For many lebanese those palestinian arms turned out to be open hell. It is those peoples experiences with those arms which now are dictating their much elevated animosity against the palestinians. Do you understand that we are trapped inside a moment 22 and that somewhere and in order to stop this whirling destructive process the cause for hatred and discrimation of those must first be dealt with, let alone the simple common sense which tells any normal citizen in any country that he who once was welcomed as a refugee, and also waged war on you, should unconditionally drop his arms before asking for anything?
 

3asheq Beirut

Active Member
Words are not enough. Someone in Lebanon needs to follow the example set by King Hussein of Jordan, God rest his soul.

You welcome a Palestinian into your land and treat him like a human being, he'll take it as a sign of weakness and try to bury you in your own soil. A Palestinian understands only the language of violence, and a wise leader would drive them into the sea and let the rest of the world worry about them. Let Israel, the U.S., Britian, KSA, Syria, Iran find a home for them; they have plenty of room to squeeze them in. Had the Palestinians respected the country that provided them refuge and honored Lebanese law, they would have been living freely amongst us in humane conditions. Unfortunately, since the day they arrived here they've done nothing but spit on the Lebanese people and disregarded our sovereignty. Whatever they get now, they deserve it.

Spoken like a true racist. Yeah we treated them like humans, except they had to live in isolated camps and were not allowed to lead normal lives. Palestinians, according to your likes, must live in filthy, run down, disgusting camps and just accept their fate and thank God that the Lebanese are willing not to massacre them.

Why are Palestinians not getting armed in the US or in Europe? Why do they not have any problems in any of the countries that grant them equal rights to all other citizens? Maybe you should think about that rather than utter your digusting racist comments.
 

kappa273

Well-Known Member
ya shangleesh, i am going to agree with you for the sake of discussion..

let's say the actual lebanese army soldier and leadership made a horrible mistake..

i am interested in knowing what would you do if you were in command of the army? not only in command but also direct control over the soldiers and officers on the field...

the army has some checkpoints and suddenly someone declares war on you, slaughters 30 soldiers while snoring in their beds and hides in a the Bared camp..

would you negotiate with them?
would you attack them immediately full blown?
would you forget about the dead soldiers and consider the whole issue forgotten?
would you ask the civilians to evacuate the camp and the fighters to surrender decently?
would you besiege the camp and let them die from hunger inside?
any other option?


i am waiting for your reply...

kappa
 

Dalzi

Legendary Member
Spoken like a true racist. Yeah we treated them like humans, except they had to live in isolated camps and were not allowed to lead normal lives. Palestinians, according to your likes, must live in filthy, run down, disgusting camps and just accept their fate and thank God that the Lebanese are willing not to massacre them.

Why are Palestinians not getting armed in the US or in Europe? Why do they not have any problems in any of the countries that grant them equal rights to all other citizens? Maybe you should think about that rather than utter your digusting racist comments.
So, do I get that you mean it was our fault that lead to things the way they are now? I would have to disagree with you one that, we contributed to it, but certain Palestinians had their great share. (I'm not talking about the current incident, but the past)
 

3asheq Beirut

Active Member
There's a possible basic human aspect missing here, maybe by both you and me. I completly understand what you say 3asheq, i really do, and you are absolutly correct about the issue of poverty, lack of basic human civic and social rights which the palestinians suffer under. That should definetly be dealt with. I personally know few palestinian families, among the best one can wish for for neighbours, whose grown up and well behaving children have in fact nothing to do with Palestine except the label AND the restrictions we have put on them. That is UTMOST discrimation and i have no problem in admitting this and also asking for better conditions to those people. As i mentioned before, you will hardly find people here denying a human brother or sister, irrespective of nationalities, their basic human rights, whoever does that is either lying, a hypocrite or simply needs some medications.

Now to the dark side of the moon: Had it been under normal political, social and economical evolutionary terms that we had found ourselves talking to each other here, such discussion would probably never have taken place. Under heavy intellectual load interaction, we people may get at the most 20% rational but remain up to 80% emotional, by design of nature. Thus come the relatively fresh memories of our civil war and the mental wounds start to burn. Only ostrishes will not admit that the armed palestinian presence was directly behind the ignition and propagation of that war. What many people still see today is: Well, nothing new on that front. The same, if not more, weapons are still there and so are those armed factions. And here comes some logic in handy and adds to this the following insight:

When the palestinians were once welcomed in, the hatred component must assumingly have been missing, or at least generally not so widespread as of today, and yet poverty and lack of basic rights were more or less the same.. For many lebanese those palestinian arms turned out to be open hell. It is those peoples experiences with those arms which now are dictating their much elevated animosity against the palestinians. Do you understand that we are trapped inside a moment 22 and that somewhere and in order to stop this whirling destructive process the cause for hatred and discrimation of those must first be dealt with, let alone the simple common sense which tells any normal citizen in any country that he who once was welcomed as a refugee, and also waged war on you, should unconditionally drop his arms before asking for anything?

Taifoon,

If you want to solve a problem, you have to address its source. I believe attacking camps and trying to forcefully disarm Palestinians won't change anything in the long run. Sure, the Palestinian factions did in fact engage in many provocative activities, brandishing weapons and flexing their arms in Lebanon. I understand that and I condemn them for it. However, let us not clear other Lebanese factions of responsibility for the civil war. Lebanon has always been on the verge of a civil war due to its sectarian divisions. But always we must find some excuse other than ourselves for what we do to our country. Whose fault was it in 1958? Whose fault is it today that we are all under extreme anxiety, not knowing whether a war will break out at any time.

We Lebanese have a problem in that we are utterly sectarian and tribal. This "quality" we have shapes our atititude toward the Palestinians. The deep resentment for Palestinians is due to underlying sectarian reasons. Remember that the Lebanese didn't really "welcome" the Palestinians, rather they were forced to take them. What was Lebanon going to do? Send them back to Palestine? The Jews had already expelled them. The Lebanese weren't happy about it, and the way they chose to deal with it was to force them to live in isolated camps. What do you suppose will happen when you force an entire population to live in isolated camps and to be treated differently from other people in the same country?

If we are truly serious about solving this problem we have to stop treating Palestinians as second class people, take them out of the camps, and grant them equal rights under the law. I am not saying we give them citizenship, as this is a sensitive issue that Lebanon is not prepared to handle, but rather just grant them rights equal to all other Lebanese, while maintaining their Palestinian identity. Many Palestinians are already basically Lebanese. So whether or not they carry the passport is not going to make a difference. Then not only will there be no justification for carrying weapons, but there will be no conditions leading to the carrying of arms.

I believe that the Palestinian issue in Lebanon is part and parcel of an entire Lebanese problem. It is not just that Palestinians are armed and if we disarm them then everything is fine and dandy. We must ask for real change in Lebanon. We must overhaul this entire Lebanese sectarian system that has led Lebanon to one disaster after another.
 

Shangleesh

New Member
ya shangleesh, i am going to agree with you for the sake of discussion..

let's say the actual lebanese army soldier and leadership made a horrible mistake..

i am interested in knowing what would you do if you were in command of the army? not only in command but also direct control over the soldiers and officers on the field...

the army has some checkpoints and suddenly someone declares war on you, slaughters 30 soldiers while snoring in their beds and hides in a the Bared camp..

would you negotiate with them?
would you attack them immediately full blown?
would you forget about the dead soldiers and consider the whole issue forgotten?
would you ask the civilians to evacuate the camp and the fighters to surrender decently?
would you besiege the camp and let them die from hunger inside?
any other option?


i am waiting for your reply...

kappa

I would try negotiation, guarantee a fair trial and no revenge.

Evacuate the civilians and promise any damage to their homes will be repaired immediately.

I would have located the tunnels and waited it out, eventually they are going to get hungry and thirsty and surrender.
 

3asheq Beirut

Active Member
So, do I get that you mean it was our fault that lead to things the way they are now? I would have to disagree with you one that, we contributed to it, but certain Palestinians had their great share. (I'm not talking about the current incident, but the past)

I am saying it's a collection of circumstances. But the underlying problem in Lebanon is the Lebanese system. Unless we change that system we will continue to have problems. Palestinian armed factions are certainly a problem, just like armed LFers, PSPers, etc. are also a problem. But what is the solution? If you disarm the Palestinians now nothing will change in Lebanon. If we want real change, we have to overhaul the entire system.
 

julesvernes99

Legendary Member
لم تكد اول قافلة للفلسطينيين العائدين الى مخيم نهر البارد في قسمه الجديد تحط رحالها في ما تبقى من منازل وابنية لم تهدم بفعل الاشتباكات التي دارت منذ 20 ايار الفائت بين الجيش اللبناني وعناصر تنظيم "فتح الاسلام" وانتهت في 2 ايلول المنصرم بتقهقر وانهزام ما تبقى من فلول المسلحين حتى بدأت الممارسات الفلسطينية اللامسؤولة تطل برأسها متعرضة للجيش اللبناني الذي قدم نحو 165 شهيداً من خيرة عناصره في نهر البارد، اذ عمد عدد من الصبية اليافعين الى رشق عناصر الجيش المتواجدين في المخيم بالحجارة وكيل الشتائم لهم كما استبدل العائدون الاعلام اللبنانية المرفوعة داخل المخيم بأخرى فلسطينية ما حدا بالجيش لاتخاذ سلسلة اجراءات تحد من الممارسات الشاذة وتضع الامور في نصابها

To these jerks we say, mess with the LEBANESE ARMY or ANY LEBANESE CITIZEN and you will get screwed & roasted whether you are kids, men or women.

Iktada el tawdih

Mouwatin loubnani 7orr



I think I had enough of these people. I mean I am sorry that they are refugees BUT this is UNACCEPTABLE. They had caused so much trouble since 1967. The Army had every right to kick anyone's ass in that camp as they gave deadlines after deadlines. If they don't like Lebanon, why don't they go to KSA? Let "khadem al-Haramayn" build them a state of the art "camp" (with $92/ barrel for oil, I'm sure KSA can afford it) and just leave Lebanon alone.
Enough...................
 

taifoon

Well-Known Member
Taifoon,

If you want to solve a problem, you have to address its source. I believe attacking camps and trying to forcefully disarm Palestinians won't change anything in the long run. Sure, the Palestinian factions did in fact engage in many provocative activities, brandishing weapons and flexing their arms in Lebanon. I understand that and I condemn them for it. However, let us not clear other Lebanese factions of responsibility for the civil war. Lebanon has always been on the verge of a civil war due to its sectarian divisions. But always we must find some excuse other than ourselves for what we do to our country. Whose fault was it in 1958? Whose fault is it today that we are all under extreme anxiety, not knowing whether a war will break out at any time.

We Lebanese have a problem in that we are utterly sectarian and tribal. This "quality" we have shapes our atititude toward the Palestinians. The deep resentment for Palestinians is due to underlying sectarian reasons. Remember that the Lebanese didn't really "welcome" the Palestinians, rather they were forced to take them. What was Lebanon going to do? Send them back to Palestine? The Jews had already expelled them. The Lebanese weren't happy about it, and the way they chose to deal with it was to force them to live in isolated camps. What do you suppose will happen when you force an entire population to live in isolated camps and to be treated differently from other people in the same country?

If we are truly serious about solving this problem we have to stop treating Palestinians as second class people, take them out of the camps, and grant them equal rights under the law. I am not saying we give them citizenship, as this is a sensitive issue that Lebanon is not prepared to handle, but rather just grant them rights equal to all other Lebanese, while maintaining their Palestinian identity. Many Palestinians are already basically Lebanese. So whether or not they carry the passport is not going to make a difference. Then not only will there be no justification for carrying weapons, but there will be no conditions leading to the carrying of arms.

I believe that the Palestinian issue in Lebanon is part and parcel of an entire Lebanese problem. It is not just that Palestinians are armed and if we disarm them then everything is fine and dandy. We must ask for real change in Lebanon. We must overhaul this entire Lebanese sectarian system that has led Lebanon to one disaster after another.

3asheq,

We lebanese carry on our backs many curses, you mentioned some initially. Adding one more curse to our collection - palestinian armed presence- and asking us to put the whole blame on our cursed nature is not fair only but also counter-productive in reguard to our own interests.

I am sure your political view may make you differ with me on that matter, as i assume you see the palestinians and lebanese as more of the "one people" sort of people, which i do respect, although not completely agree with in the mentioned context of our discussion.

At the end of the day, we all share basic human values and properties and i would not hesitate for a second, doomed as i consider myself to be by those properties and values, to offer a homeless, hungry or thirsty 3asheq (heavens forbid ;), Shangleesh (and even one Abufijli ;), or a palestinian refugee or a polish 'jew' my utmost to ease his pain and sufferings within the boundaries of my opportunities and possibilities. ( I would however dredge only Abufijli for any hidden knives, pistols or hand granates before i let him in the kitchen ;)
 

Moonlapse

Active Member
Spoken like a true racist. Yeah we treated them like humans, except they had to live in isolated camps and were not allowed to lead normal lives. Palestinians, according to your likes, must live in filthy, run down, disgusting camps and just accept their fate and thank God that the Lebanese are willing not to massacre them.

How would you deal with refugees who want to make Lebanon a new Palestine? Do you give them citizenships and free employment since we have such a lush economy and so many jobs to spare? Since you're an SSNPer, do you propose we give the Palestinians the homes and jobs of the Lebanese people as was done in the past with Syrian nationals? Isn't the name of your party the "Syrian Socialist Nationalist Party"? Where exactly does Lebanon stand in your Syrian ideology? The Palestinians have been trangressing in our country for decades now, and they are responsible for their own actions. The question is do you send a nanny to watchover them or do you send them to boot camp? Nannies are not equipped to deal with thugs, and that's not to say all Palestinians are thugs, but unfortunately, the thugs run the camps while the innocent suffer.

Why are Palestinians not getting armed in the US or in Europe? Why do they not have any problems in any of the countries that grant them equal rights to all other citizens? Maybe you should think about that rather than utter your digusting racist comments.


I'm with you, let's send them to the U.S. & Europe since they can have "equal rights" there. I guess in this day & age if you put your country's interests over Palestinian, Syrian, Israeli, American interests, then you must be a racist. If that's the criteria for being a racist, then I welcome your remarks. Maybe I would be less of a racist if I belonged to a Lebanese party that serves a foreign nation, then I would be labeled "humanitarian" like your good self.
 
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