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Partitioning of Lebanon

SeekNirvana

Well-Known Member
The thread you are reading is inspired from this thread.

In the thread linked above, the author reports the speech of one politician hinting to what could be the partition of Lebanon. It's a known fact that whoever addresses the idea of partitioning Lebanon is targeted as an Israeli Zionist (add adjective-ist). In this thread, let us look at this concept from an objective point of view and not treat it as a taboo.

- What do you think are the pros and cons of the partition of Lebanon?
- Do you think that would be a viable permanent solution for the Lebanese ever-lasting problem?
- Do you differentiate that with federalism? (which has been heavily discussed in this thread)
- Are there external benefiters to that?

Let's make it a civilized and constructive dialogue.
 

loubnaniTO

Legendary Member
Staff member
Super Penguin
Before we get into the details of the pros and cons, let's establish the details of the hypothesis... are we talking about partioning the country based on sectarian groups?? or religious? or what?
 

shadow1

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
There will come a time when the Lebanese will realise that no matter how much they love each other they simply cant coexist peacefully. So partitioning the country is a logical thing to do at least until these little Lebanonettes get swallowed up by neighbouring states.
Strictly speaking the Lebanese are not capable of governing themselves. No occupying nation in six thousand years of BS has managed to destroy Lebanon as well as the locals do or kill as many of them and they did of each other. And yet they love to go on bragging about the religious tolerance they want to present to the world relying on what the pope said that lebaon is more than a country but a mission.They missed the meaning of the first part and ignored the unspoken word of the second. He meant to say MISSION IMPOSSIBLE. Being a nation easily intoxicated with slogans and catchy phrases, the Lebanese loved it and adopted it.

I said it a 100 times before Lebanon is not a viable state. Divide it between Syria and Israel and hopefully peace can return to it. Partitioning the country will cause endless little wars between the Lebanonettes.
 

Lebanese Socialist

Well-Known Member
Before we get into the details of the pros and cons, let's establish the details of the hypothesis... are we talking about partioning the country based on sectarian groups?? or religious? or what?

I second Loubnanito and I add that under any shape or form patition is an absolute evil. I can only see it happen after yet another bloody civil war with major population transfers and ethnic cleansing. As I said an absolute evil and an economic death sentence for all Lebanese.
 

Morpheus

Active Member
Before we get into the details of the pros and cons, let's establish the details of the hypothesis... are we talking about partioning the country based on sectarian groups?? or religious? or what?

The problem (or blessing rather) is that a sectarian partitioning may not be possible because the current political masses are divided intra sectarian lines.

For example, would you consider a Christian state in regions with a FPM majority?

Would the Sunnis be even willing to consider partition, knowing that they are scattered between four or five unattached regions?

Would the Shiites accept a partition that would leave them with traditionally some of the poorest areas in Lebanon?

As for the Druzes, they just might accept it... still how much weight do they have on a national level? (5% or less)

The above sectarian overview is needed if you want to look at the issue from that particular angle, not that I am personally fond of sectarian analysis.

Regards
 

loubnaniTO

Legendary Member
Staff member
Super Penguin
There will come a time when the Lebanese will realise that no matter how much they love each other they simply cant coexist peacefully. So partitioning the country is a logical thing to do at least until these little Lebanonettes get swallowed up by neighbouring states.
Strictly speaking the Lebanese are not capable of governing themselves. No occupying nation in six thousand years of BS has managed to destroy Lebanon as well as the locals do or kill as many of them and they did of each other. And yet they love to go on bragging about the religious tolerance they want to present to the world relying on what the pope said that lebaon is more than a country but a mission.They missed the meaning of the first part and ignored the unspoken word of the second. He meant to say MISSION IMPOSSIBLE. Being a nation easily intoxicated with slogans and catchy phrases, the Lebanese loved it and adopted it.

I said it a 100 times before Lebanon is not a viable state. Divide it between Syria and Israel and hopefully peace can return to it. Partitioning the country will cause endless little wars between the Lebanonettes.


no one asnwered my question... split the country into what? confessional states? like a Christian, Sunni, Chiaa, Druze states??

Is our problem really between Christians and Druze, or Christians and Sunni? or between Chiaa and Christians?...

Will the problems be resolved if we split the country into min-confessional states?

Will the Sunni state be very safe next to a Chiaa state if it accuses it of being an Iranian state? Will a Christian state live in peace when a majority of the christians might not want to be enclosed alone? and what about mixed or remote concentrations? like Jezzine, or Zahle, or Akkar?
 

WiseCookie

Well-Known Member
The problem (or blessing rather) is that a sectarian partitioning may not be possible because the current political masses are divided intra sectarian lines.

For example, would you consider a Christian state in regions with a FPM majority?

Would the Sunnis be even willing to consider partition, knowing that they are scattered between four or five unattached regions?

Would the Shiites accept a partition that would leave them with traditionally some of the poorest areas in Lebanon?

As for the Druzes, they just might accept it... still how much weight do they have on a national level? (5% or less)

The above sectarian overview is needed if you want to look at the issue from that particular angle, not that I am personally fond of sectarian analysis.

Regards

Let's just talking pragmatically over here. How possible is it even to do this? We can debate things as theoretically as possible, but Lebanon has had an experiment with Federalism in the Al-Ka2imikamiyatan ( yes i know it's a mouth full) and it failed miserably. There are minorities of different sects that exist everywhere in Lebanon, and one cannot simply state that this area is Sunni or this area is whatever without taking that into consideration.

These days cities are more connected, and while it would have been possible a while back to separate areas in a sectarian manner. I don't believe that it's possible at all, and a different formula should be taken.
 

Arze

Legendary Member
The thread you are reading is inspired from this thread.

In the thread linked above, the author reports the speech of one politician hinting to what could be the partition of Lebanon. It's a known fact that whoever addresses the idea of partitioning Lebanon is targeted as an Israeli Zionist (add adjective-ist). In this thread, let us look at this concept from an objective point of view and not treat it as a taboo.

- What do you think are the pros and cons of the partition of Lebanon?
- Do you think that would be a viable permanent solution for the Lebanese ever-lasting problem?
- Do you differentiate that with federalism? (which has been heavily discussed in this thread)
- Are there external benefiters to that?

Let's make it a civilized and constructive dialogue.

I'm against the partitioning of Lebanon.. and we all remember what GMA says,, Loubnan akbar min an yobla3 w azghar min an youkassam..
As an FPMers, I'm with the Lebanon 10452 km2.. I'm with Lebanon el 3eish l mouchtarak. I'm with Lebanon El charakeh and not Cherke 7alabieh.
 

Arze

Legendary Member
no one asnwered my question... split the country into what? confessional states? like a Christian, Sunni, Chiaa, Druze states??

Is our problem really between Christians and Druze, or Christians and Sunni? or between Chiaa and Christians?...

Will the problems be resolved if we split the country into min-confessional states?

Will the Sunni state be very safe next to a Chiaa state if it accuses it of being an Iranian state? Will a Christian state live in peace when a majority of the christians might not want to be enclosed alone? and what about mixed or remote concentrations? like Jezzine, or Zahle, or Akkar?


Loubnanito,,

A sunni state is very difficult to come true,, Sunii's are spread, let say they want to give Beirut to the sunni's, what about those who are in Tripoli?? in Akkar? in Bekaa??
And this Scenario will be applied on all religions except the Druze, cause they are available in the same zone.
 

Morpheus

Active Member
Let's just talking pragmatically over here. How possible is it even to do this? We can debate things as theoretically as possible, but Lebanon has had an experiment with Federalism in the Al-Ka2imikamiyatan ( yes i know it's a mouth full) and it failed miserably. There are minorities of different sects that exist everywhere in Lebanon, and one cannot simply state that this area is Sunni or this area is whatever without taking that into consideration.

These days cities are more connected, and while it would have been possible a while back to separate areas in a sectarian manner. I don't believe that it's possible at all, and a different formula should be taken.

Then we agree :)
 

taifoon

Well-Known Member
There will come a time when the Lebanese will realise that no matter how much they love each other they simply cant coexist peacefully. So partitioning the country is a logical thing to do at least until these little Lebanonettes get swallowed up by neighbouring states.

I think not much can be added to this, and i am glad you said it shadow, which i take as half credit for something we once discussed.

Note however that the 'cutting apart' festivities are neither guaranteed to be the joyfull arrangements we might think of.. In fact, they may turn out to be more bloody than anything else we have witnessed thus for.

But since your following suggestion

Divide it between Syria and Israel and hopefully peace can return to it. Partitioning the country will cause endless little wars between the Lebanonettes.


would need a lot more than common persuading technic in order for it to get accepted by a majority of the lebanese, we are still left with:

- Partition now, if you succeed to make it through yet one more set of endless blood cycles, while enjoying the illusion of having detached from the burden of 'other sects' hanging around you, and finally end up being eaten by either the eastern or southern crocodile

- Keep seeking a better constitution and arrangement to still live together and endure the less costy price, in lives and in future outlooks.
 

Morpheus

Active Member
May I add to the advocates of dividing the country between Syria and Israel, the latter might not be so eager to accept those areas with its current population, so we're basically back to square one.

PS: Syria would be more than happy though...
 

taifoon

Well-Known Member
no one asnwered my question... split the country into what? confessional states? like a Christian, Sunni, Chiaa, Druze states??

Is our problem really between Christians and Druze, or Christians and Sunni? or between Chiaa and Christians?...

Will the problems be resolved if we split the country into min-confessional states?

Will the Sunni state be very safe next to a Chiaa state if it accuses it of being an Iranian state? Will a Christian state live in peace when a majority of the christians might not want to be enclosed alone? and what about mixed or remote concentrations? like Jezzine, or Zahle, or Akkar?

Your question is the core of the subject and is highly what makes me say that
any partitioning project, irrespective of its outlines, will be an orgy of bloodsheds.
The ending will be: Israel and Syria will have to calm it down, by means of annexation.
 

CedarJet

Well-Known Member
Partitioning has no pros. It's just a way out. Look at the LF, they have about 3 or 4 groups now that call themselves the real LF. Didn't the Christians have inter fighting?

Didn't the shiia have internal fighting?

Didn't the sunni have internal fighting?

Partitioning Lebanon will lead to more partitioning, and so on, until you're sharing your bedroom, and eventually you're bed is partitioned.

We need unity amongst Lebanese, where each Lebanese is respected as an individual and has rights. We need a modern country. Wallaaaw, ma the Lebanese are the smartest in the whole world.

No to partition.
 

Youchka

Legendary Member
Thanks for this thread.
I have asked many times those questions, not for the sake of calling a traitor the person who advocates partition, federalism, whatever one wants to call it, but actually because I can't understand how it can be achieved practically.

Morpheus said that it can't be split into sectarian parts, then what would be the other partitioning criteria? It can't be split into political part, opposition versus loyalists areas either.
So how? I am so eager to understand.
And if someone thinks it is feasible on a sectarian basis, also please tell us how.
 

Free_Patriot

Active Member
Partitioning will indicates that we are retarded tribes that don't know how to build a nation to live in civilized way like the other nations. Partitioning will also indicates that we don't know how to deal with our political divisions in an institutionalized way. In this case, we're not worth a having a country so let Israel eat us and plant this land with Jews.
 

Lebanese-Nationalist

Well-Known Member
A partition between north and south Lebanon would be a more realistic option. I still doubt the ability of such an arrangement to solve Lebanon's problems.
 

Youchka

Legendary Member
A partition between north and south Lebanon would be a more realistic option. I still doubt the ability of such an arrangement to solve Lebanon's problems.

Kid ye3ne can you elaborate (about North and South). Meaning, Chouf, Bekaa will be with the South? Metn with the North?
 

Youchka

Legendary Member
I am waiting for the LFers and all the people who support federalism to please take part in this thread and tell us their idea about it and how they imagine it happening. Thanks in advance.
 

forward_vision

New Member
I am waiting for the LFers and all the people who support federalism to please take part in this thread and tell us their idea about it and how they imagine it happening. Thanks in advance.

I think partition is impossible but federalism has a small chance of being feasible. The outline is as follows:
1) There will be Druze, Shia, Christian and Sunni cantons. Maybe several of each.
2) Each Lebanese citizen will be assigned to one canton based on his sect. So a Shia will be assigned to a Shia canton even if he lives in a Suni canton. He will not have to move out of the Suni canton, but he will have no voting rights there. He will have voting rights in his Shia canton even though he doesn't live in it. A child to parents from different cantons will decide at 18 which canton he wants to be a citizen of.
3) The local government of each canton will be elected only by the citizens of that canton and will be allowed to make any law that is not in contradiction to a federal law.
4) There will be a small and weak federal govenment and parlaiment that will be elected based on a strict proportional vote that will be responsible for the army and foreign relations. The constitution will severley limit the laws that this federal government can enact.
 
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