[SH & PMA sign the new elections law] Lebanon Elections 2017

will Adwan new 15 proportional districts break the deadlock

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 65.0%
  • No

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • Perhaps

    Votes: 5 25.0%

  • Total voters
    20
!Aoune32

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
Let's have this thread of 2017 elections instead of posting in the government formation.

Where is Hariri stronghold? He is in a pickle also.
He lost Tripoli and that was with all faces against Rifi.
 
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  • oldschool

    oldschool

    Active Member
    I for one see all the excitement about the FPM LF alliance but i dont see how this alliance can improve much on the current seats, unless Hariri and Junblat are forced to give them more christians seats.

    Most districts that they would sweep were already swept by FPM, theyll gain one in Batroun, but Koura youll need Makari and LF already has one now, yaane max 1 zyede, which will still be hard.

    Zahle is very complicated, youll have to give others seats and LF already has 2 now from there, so max 1 zyede maybe?

    Ashrafieh 2 or 3 more.

    Still thats a max of a handful of seats.

    The law sucks.

    Orthodox law is the only fair one.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    I think proportional on either district or caza will be much better. We can win the seat even if we are a minority in that area. Akkar masalan fe 30% christians. We can get at least 2 of the 3 christian seats in that district if we unite.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I think one cannot deny the fact that the current government of Lebanon is precisely what Aoun has been longing for in his consociational democracy. A democracy orchestrated by an elite forming an alliance representative of historical identities of the a divided people. It really does not bring in much change it just legitimizes the system. But this does not guarantee the system's survival.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I think one cannot deny the fact that the current government of Lebanon is precisely what Aoun has been longing for in his consociational democracy. A democracy orchestrated by an elite forming an alliance representative of historical identities of the a divided people. It really does not bring in much change it just legitimizes the system. But this does not guarantee the system's survival.
    That may be so, but you're mistaken if you think that the "historically divided identities" do not exist in significant segments of the Lebanese population. The importance of secularism for the successful future of Lebanon has not reached everyone yet. Unfortunately.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    That may be so, but you're mistaken if you think that the "historically divided identities" do not exist in significant segments of the Lebanese population. The importance of secularism for the successful future of Lebanon has not reached everyone yet. Unfortunately.
    In fact, identities are not constructed by this that is in power only. Consociational democracy elites construct historical identities to make a claim to government is a fact. This can be observed and detected in public discourses produced by such an elite.

    As to how people see their own identities. You have no evidence to support your claim that the material identifications of the people is founded on history. I am talking about the people actually existing outside the conceptual framework produced by the confessional elite and its apparatuses.

    You only have a personal opinion of this matter.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    In fact, identities are not constructed by this that is in power only. Consociational democracy elites construct historical identities to make a claim to government is a fact. This can be observed and detected in public discourses produced by such an elite.

    As to how people see their own identities. You have no evidence to support your claim that the material identifications of the people is founded on history. I am talking about the people actually existing outside the conceptual framework produced by the confessional elite and its apparatuses.

    You only have a personal opinion of this matter.
    When 30% of Lebanese Muslims say they would like to have sharia as the law of the country, it means they are not ready for secularism. When most Lebanese Christians feel that their existence is under threat, it means they are not ready for secularism.

    We can argue ad infinitum whether these beliefs come from the ruling elite or if they are a choice people make, it doesn't change anything to the fact that this is the reality we are dealing with. My assessment is that these beliefs come from both: the elite and the people themselves...as well as through the agendas of regional and international players.

    Given how most of the so-called Arab Spring revolutions have ended, I wouldn't try toppling the elite, unless I have a foolproof, 100% secure replacement...lest we end up with the likes of daesh invading our lands.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I think one cannot deny the fact that the current government of Lebanon is precisely what Aoun has been longing for in his consociational democracy. A democracy orchestrated by an elite forming an alliance representative of historical identities of the a divided people. It really does not bring in much change it just legitimizes the system. But this does not guarantee the system's survival.
    Btw...I'm replying to you with the "assumption" that what you said about Aoun is true, for argument's sake; however, I do not believe this is Aoun's mentality. I believe that he really does care about a Lebanon for all Lebanese, regardless of sect, but he is playing in a sectarian arena and the rules are not his to make.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    When 30% of Lebanese Muslims say they would like to have sharia as the law of the country, it means they are not ready for secularism. When most Lebanese Christians feel that their existence is under threat, it means they are not ready for secularism.

    We can argue ad infinitum whether these beliefs come from the ruling elite or if they are a choice people make, it doesn't change anything to the fact that this is the reality we are dealing with. My assessment is that these beliefs come from both: the elite and the people themselves...as well as through the agendas of regional and international players.

    Given how most of the so-called Arab Spring revolutions have ended, I wouldn't try toppling the elite, unless I have a foolproof, 100% secure replacement...lest we end up with the likes of daesh invading our lands.
    What is your source that says 30% of Muslims in Lebanon want Shari'a law and what is Shari'a law. If I may ask. Of course within the Lebanese context.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Sharia law is sharia law. There is no "sharia law within the Lebanese context."



    Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world | Pew Research Center
    Are you telling me the result of this poll is representative of the Lebanese people just because it is posted by a polling center. Maybe we should start campaigning for a referendum and see how many Muslims in Lebanon know what is Shari'a law.

    I certainly hope global politics is not dependent on such shallow sources of intelligence.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Are you telling me the result of this poll is representative of the Lebanese people just because it is posted by polling center.
    lol...typical.

    - You make a claim
    - They ask for a source
    - You provide the source
    - They question its credibility

    It never fails.

    Maybe we should start campaigning for a referendum and see how many Muslims in Lebanon know what is Shari'a law.

    I certainly hope global politics is not dependent on such shallow sources of intelligence.
    The question is not whether or not they know what sharia is. The question is whether or not they want it. You think if Islamists took over Lebanon and said "we're going to implement sharia" these people are going to be like "Hey sheikh! Hold up! What do you mean exactly by sharia? Can you provide a detailed, point-by-point form so we can take each one into consideration and vote accordingly?" LOL
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    In all
    lol...typical.

    - You make a claim
    - They ask for a source
    - You provide the source
    - They question its credibility

    It never fails.



    The question is not whether or not they know what sharia is. The question is whether or not they want it. You think if Islamists took over Lebanon and said "we're going to implement sharia" these people are going to be like "Hey sheikh! Hold up! What do you mean exactly by sharia? Can you provide a detailed, point-by-point form so we can take each one into consideration and vote accordingly?" LOL
    Just to tell you and for the sake of argument, the 29% in the poll even when exaggerated to 30% in your post still does not constitute a majority.

    If anything it proves my point. Only 29% of Lebanese Muslims are part of the elites confessional discourse and I assume this 29% includes Shi'a and Sunni. This is how little your number is.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    In all


    Just to tell you and for the sake of argument, the 29% in the poll even when exaggerated to 30% in your post still does not constitute a majority.

    If anything it proves my point. Only 29% of Lebanese Muslims are part of the elites confessional discourse and I assume this 29% includes Shi'a and Sunni. This is how little your number is.

    lol @ "exaggerated" because of a 1% difference.

    29% is a significant number, considering this is Lebanon we are talking about, the most "open and free" of the Arabic countries. 29% can make a big difference in votes and elections. Here are some other numbers:

    Out of those who favor sharia law, 59% believe there is one interpretation of sharia. 48% believe sharia should apply to Muslims and non-Muslims alike! 50% favor corporal punishment for crimes such as theft! 46% endorse stoning as punishment for adultery! 46% want the death penalty for those who leave Islam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is in Lebanon!

    53% of Muslims in general (including those who don't favor sharia law) think religious judges should preside over family and property cases. 96% think sex outside of marriage is immoral! 30% of Muslims think Islamic parties are better than other political parties. 51% of Muslims think Islamic parties are the same as other political parties.

    And you are dreaming of secularism!

    These and more stats below...

























     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    29% is a significant number, considering this is Lebanon we are talking about, the most "open and free" of the Arabic countries. 29% can make a big difference in votes and elections
    Liberty dictates that the 89% that does not want Shari'a law respects the rights of this minority to practice its traditions, call it shari'a law, but within what the 89% dictates in terms of laws that may respect the liberty of society at large from the dictates of a minority.

    Your logic says we disregard the 89% because the Christians believe that the 29% is a threat to Christianity and consequently, the 29% represent the 89%.

    This is what I read.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Liberty dictates that the 89% that does not want Shari'a law respects the rights of this minority to practice its traditions, call it shari'a law, but within what the 89% dictates in terms of laws that may respect the liberty of society at large from the dictates of a minority.

    Your logic says we disregard the 89% because the Christians believe that the 29% is a threat to Christianity and consequently, the 29% represent the 89%.

    This is what I read.
    First of all, where did you bring this 89% number from?

    Second, traditions are one thing, laws are another.

    Third, sharia law is not only imposed on those who choose it but on others as well. So it is an infringement of those others' rights.

    Fourth, sharia is incompatible with a modern, secular state.

    Fifth, this is not even about Christians or Christianity, at this point. Even non-practicing Muslims should be concerned that so many of their compatriots hold these views. Those who should be concerned include you, miss pro-freedom-for women, pro-sex-before-marriage, pro-homosexuality, pro-secularism, non-believer. According to these people, you deserve to die for your views, and you are sitting there defending their "rights and traditions."

    I swear, people like you are even more dangerous than people like them because you give their backward mentality a cover, despite the fact that you are free from religious brainwashing and should know better.
     
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