Should a neo-Phoenician language be introduced in Lebanon?

Robin Hood

Robin Hood

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Scientific research have lead to the conclusion that Lebanese are in fact the descendents of Phoenicians, which means, we are not really Arab. So my question is, since Phoenician is our true identity, shouldn't we try to revive the Phoenician language? That doesn't mean you should forget Arabic, we can learn both language or create a mixed language reflection more adequatly our identity and our culture.
 
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  • Reynold

    Reynold

    Member
    Scientific research have lead to the conclusion that Lebanese are in fact the descendents of Phoenicians, which means, we are not really Arab. So my question is, since Phoenician is our true identity, shouldn't we try to revive the Phoenician language? That doesn't mean you should forget Arabic, we can learn both language or create a mixed language reflection more adequatly our identity and our culture.
    reviving an ancient language is very artificial, it's impossible to do.

    also, 300,000,000 Arabs in the world, some of them are white, others are black, its about culture, not genetics.
    Of course we are descendants of phoenicians, the phoenicians after all did not disappear, they were arabized, and they were mixed with Greeks, Persians, Romans, Armenians, Egyptians, Turks, Arabs...etc
    in a way, we are all of these, should we learn an ancient language too?

    identity is not created, identity simply "is".
     
    Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

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    reviving an ancient language is very artificial, it's impossible to do.

    also, 300,000,000 Arabs in the world, some of them are white, others are black, its about culture, not genetics.
    Of course we are descendants of phoenicians, the phoenicians after all did not disappear, they were arabized, and they were mixed with Greeks, Persians, Romans, Armenians, Egyptians, Turks, Arabs...etc
    in a way, we are all of these, should we learn an ancient language too?

    identity is not created, identity simply "is".
    The Jews did it.
    Also, our roots are mostly Phoenician, the other people that came were foreign occupiers.
    Secondly, Arabism is a fake identity. What do we have in common with real Arabs (khalijis)? People of the Levant have their own culture, and they should stop denying it. Also, Classical Arabic does not reflect our culture. There's a lot of non-Arab worlds in our dialect, and a lot of places have non-Arabic (like Syriac) names. I think Levantines should have a regionalized version of formal Arabic. Some Muslims will oppose it because of the language of the Qur'an, but the Qur'anic Arabic is not the same as Modern Standard Arabic.
    Reviving Phoenician doesn't mean we will start speaking it. But unearthing it can be good for historical research, and we can develop an Arabized versions of Phoenician, or integrate some Phoenician terms in our Arabic.
     
    Chris306

    Chris306

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    Anything to get rid of Arabic as a main language should be welcomed in Lebanon.

    It is not our real tongue.

    I don't favor bringing back Phoenician, but I do hope Lebanese start embracing English as their main tongue (especially education wise....)
     
    Dalzi

    Dalzi

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    Anything to get rid of Arabic as a main language should be welcomed in Lebanon.

    It is not our real tongue.

    I don't favor bringing back Phoenician, but I do hope Lebanese start embracing English as their main tongue (especially education wise....)
    So English is your 'real tongue'? lol Whoever talks of the need to erase a language in order to gain another, or replace it with another, is ignorant and has no clue about the meaning of 'language'. You add to your knowledge, never 'delete'. My Italian friend is fluent in 7 languages. She studied languages all her life, majored in them and translates interprets and teaches languages. I only know two and wish I had the time and energy to learn more, especially those ancient tongues that open treasures of knowledge on history and culture.

    Reviving a dead language is like digging for treasure.

    Your post shows racism, an identity crisis and ignorance.
     
    Almaza

    Almaza

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    Everyone should just get in touch with their African roots (where scientists suggest all human life began), abandon their current languages, and start speaking some extinct African language.
     
    Dalzi

    Dalzi

    Legendary Member
    The Jews did it.
    Also, our roots are mostly Phoenician, the other people that came were foreign occupiers.
    Secondly, Arabism is a fake identity. What do we have in common with real Arabs (khalijis)? People of the Levant have their own culture, and they should stop denying it. Also, Classical Arabic does not reflect our culture. There's a lot of non-Arab worlds in our dialect, and a lot of places have non-Arabic (like Syriac) names. I think Levantines should have a regionalized version of formal Arabic. Some Muslims will oppose it because of the language of the Qur'an, but the Qur'anic Arabic is not the same as Modern Standard Arabic.
    Reviving Phoenician doesn't mean we will start speaking it. But unearthing it can be good for historical research, and we can develop an Arabized versions of Phoenician, or integrate some Phoenician terms in our Arabic.
    That'd be a massive project that costs money and political battles. Let's dig out the oil and gas first :p

    In the mirror I can see that I'm 1/4 Arab, 1/4 crusader, 1/4 chinese and a 1/4 of something which could possibly be Phoenician :biggrin:
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

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    This is an interesting notion, but I have serious doubts over its implementation. There are however some fallacies in your arguement. Being Arab has nothing to do with genetics, so as long as you speak the language you can be an Arab regardless of your skin color, heritage, and religion.

    In any case, "Lebanese" Arabic is different and unique in terms of certain vocabulary and accent. And like you correctly said, we have infused many words that are not Arabic in origin into our every day language. This is very normal and it is healthy for a language to keep evolving. The moment the Arabic language stagnates then consider it dead.

    Learning the Phoenecian language would certainly add to a person's cultural richness, although I wonder what practical use it may have. The Lebanese were leaders in preserving the Arabic language, and that is why today we and all other Arabs don't speak Turkish. I say we should be proud of that and make it clear that Arabism does not equal lazy Khalijis slouching in their palaces on the shoulders of semi-legalized non-Arab slaves. Arabism came from the levant, and specifically from the rich and beautiful mountainous region of the eastern Mediterranean. That is us, and you should be **** proud of it.
     
    shadow1

    shadow1

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    Let people speak whatever language they wish so long as their second one is english. At least this way they can agree on a common language.
     
    Qifa Nabki

    Qifa Nabki

    Well-Known Member
    Here’s what Kamal Salibi, one of the greatest scholars of Maronite (and Lebanese) history, has to say on the subject:

    “While the Maronites have traditionally used Syriac for their liturgy, they appear to have been Arab rather than Aramaeo-Arab in ethnic origin; their ecclesiastical and secular literature, as known directly or from reference from as early as the 10th century A.D., is entirely in Arabic. Their ethnic difference from other Syrian Christians, who were mainly Aramaean or Aramaeo-Arab, might explain in part why they came to be organised as a separate church. The claim of the community to be descended from the Mardaites, first advanced by the Patriarch Istifan al-Duwayhi (1668-1704), is historically incredible.”


    In general, though, it strikes me as entirely wrong-headed to approach the question of Lebanese "identity" from a genetic or ethnic perspective.

    After all, given the historical span that is operative here (thousands of years), we are talking about so many different languages, dynasties, religions, cultures, sub-cultures, invaders, empires, importations, exportations… how can one imagine that anything essentially "Phoenician" or "Arab" could be preserved?

    What matters, surely, is not whether the Lebanese are Arabs or Phoenicians or Aramaeans or Klingons; what matters is what they think they are.
     
    Amirkani

    Amirkani

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    Let people speak whatever language they wish so long as their second one is english. At least this way they can agree on a common language.
    Texan English or at least Spanglish, right? Since the Queen's English you speak and might think is common is as antiquated and about to be as uncommon (extinct?) as Phoenician or Aramaic :)

    Boy... you do live in the shadow!


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    Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

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    The problem with Arabism is that it asserts that all Arab-speaking peoples are one nation, which is bogue. Also, called us "Arab" could be misleading, since it looks like we are the same people, "Arabophone" would be more fit. Quebecers and Haitians don't call themeselves "French", but "Francophone".
    Also, I'm not saying we should abandon Arab culture (eventhough I wonder what good it brought us), but what I think is that we should become more aware of our culture. The Arabic we learn at school is a dead language. Phoenician and Lebanese Arabic represent us more than Modern Standard Arabic. I think there should be a literal version of Lebanese Arabic. As for Phoenician, we can create an Arabic-Phoenician language, or integrate many Phoenician terms into our language. And I know we were also influenced by other populations, like Turks, Greeks, French, etc. and we have many of their words in our dialect.
    Some people will say, well it's useless. But I don't agree, Lebanese don't have any identity currently, and looking at our history could help us forge an identity. Arabic is losing ground, and that's in part because what we judge to be "correct" Arabic (Modern Standard Arabic) is a dead language. If we continue ignoring our full history, we will continue being a dead people.
     
    shadow1

    shadow1

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    Why not French? :p
    Does anybody still speak French outside some Parisian suburbs and keserwen? Besides figuring out the gender of inanimate objects is too tedious not to mention the passe simple and passe subjonctif. Sheer horror!

    Texan English or at least Spanglish, right? Since the Queen's English you speak and might think is common is as antiquated and about to be as uncommon (extinct?) as Phoenician or Aramaic :)

    Boy... you do live in the shadow!


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    Please. Not the Queen. You can inslut me personally if you like but before you mention her Majesty wach your mouth with Eau de Javel and Indonesian made Listermine.
    I see what you're saying though. I have had hair grow on my tongue from trying to explain to my nephews the difference between fewer and less and much and many. To no avail. They still say "much people were trying to go in."
    BTW, did they speak English in Texas? You could've fooled me.
     
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    Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

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    Does anybody still speak French outside some Parisian suburbs and keserwen? Besides figuring out the gender of inanimate objects is too tedious not to mention the passe simple and passe subjonctif. Sheer horror!


    Please. Not the Queen. You can inslut me personally if you like but before you mention her Majesty wach your mouth with Eau de Javel and Indonesian made Listermine.
    I see what you're saying though. I have had hair grow on my tongue from trying to explain to my nephews the difference between fewer and less and much and many. To no avail. They still say "much people were trying to go in."
    BTW, did they speak English in Texas? You could've fooled me.
    I didn't know Quebec, Belgium, and Switzerland were Parisian suburbs.
     
    Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

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    Texan English or at least Spanglish, right? Since the Queen's English you speak and might think is common is as antiquated and about to be as uncommon (extinct?) as Phoenician or Aramaic :)

    Boy... you do live in the shadow!


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    You live in Texas? I thought you are living in the US. Guess Mexicans are all American wannabes.
     
    elias-aj

    elias-aj

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    Does anybody still speak French outside some Parisian suburbs and keserwen? Besides figuring out the gender of inanimate objects is too tedious not to mention the passe simple and passe subjonctif. Sheer horror!
    Mon très cher Shadow,

    En vérité, vous me fendîtes tant le coeur qu'à la pensée d'être l'un des rares rescapés du flamboyant passé francophone de ma très chère et tendre mère patrie, aux côtés de mes tantes sises à Ashrafieh ou Reyfoun (que Dieu ait leur âme) voire de mes compatriotes parisianistes patentés (que François Hollande saisisse leurs portefeuilles, pauvre bougres), je décidai d'ouvrir une vieille bouteille de scotch, ce cognac du pauvre. Encore un verre et j'eus terminé ce si peu divin breuvage, dans le temps habituellement prescrit, sans avoir contemplé le désert francophone qui pourtant s'étend chaque jour un peu plus.

    Car vous le savez bien, le voile de la naïveté et de l'optimisme conjugué à la chappe de plomb alcoolisée faisant son oeuvre, je trouvai bien des mots français d'origine sémitique...horreur, phénicienne ! Europe ! Europe ! Ne se désignent-ils pas tous Européens ? Que ces anciens Francs, Wisigoths, Burgondes, Celtes, Ligures, Romains, Gaulois, et autres Grecs (anciens et nouveaux) se trouvent habiter un continent dont le nom fut donné par une princesse phénicienne, fille d'un roi de Tyr, selon la tradition de l'ancienne mythologie grecque...quelle heureuse providence ! Europe, ça a plus de gueule que flouse - encore un terme français, dérivant d'un terme arabe maghrébin et maltais, lui-même dérivant du phénicien...

    Et là j'en viens au sujet de notre ami Robin. Rien ne se perd, en vérité, et alors que les Libanais et autres peuples se définissant arabes croient parler l'arabe, ils ne font que perpetuer l'emploi de termes et de mots...phéniciens : Bayt, Ibn, Battn, Damm, Bena, 3amoud, 3adou, Ahel, Kaleb, Malak, etc. L'Arabe ne serait-il pas, finalement, une forme de néo-phénicien ? Ce qui devrait être introduit au Liban n'est pas tant un nouveau langage ou un nouvel alphabet, mais plutôt une conscience et c'est là un autre sujet.

    Mais j'en reviens au français et à votre jugement vite expédié. Je suis triste que vous ayez capitulé face à cette langue de vipère trop facilement répandue par cette bien perfide Albion, à cause d'une table, d'une chaise, d'un ordinateur ou d'un stylo. N'eut été pour ces richesses, combien de misérables n'auraient pas lu Victor Hugo ? Combien de peuplades, soumises aux coutumes et règles d'anciens régimes, ne se seraient développées en civilisations grâce au Code Napoléon - certes et je vous le concède, empalé sur la baïonette de chaque grognard de l'Armée impériale. Et combien de malheureux optimistes n'auraient pas finalement décider de cultiver leur jardin, suivant en cela l'exemple de Candide ?
     
    Reynold

    Reynold

    Member
    The problem with Arabism is that it asserts that all Arab-speaking peoples are one nation, which is bogue. Also, called us "Arab" could be misleading, since it looks like we are the same people, "Arabophone" would be more fit. Quebecers and Haitians don't call themeselves "French", but "Francophone".
    Also, I'm not saying we should abandon Arab culture (eventhough I wonder what good it brought us), but what I think is that we should become more aware of our culture. The Arabic we learn at school is a dead language. Phoenician and Lebanese Arabic represent us more than Modern Standard Arabic. I think there should be a literal version of Lebanese Arabic. As for Phoenician, we can create an Arabic-Phoenician language, or integrate many Phoenician terms into our language. And I know we were also influenced by other populations, like Turks, Greeks, French, etc. and we have many of their words in our dialect.
    Some people will say, well it's useless. But I don't agree, Lebanese don't have any identity currently, and looking at our history could help us forge an identity. Arabic is losing ground, and that's in part because what we judge to be "correct" Arabic (Modern Standard Arabic) is a dead language. If we continue ignoring our full history, we will continue being a dead people.
    Languages are not created.

    correct Arabic is losing ground? how long have you been away from Lebanon? lol
    on facebook I have noticed a lot of my friends in the last 2 years using Arabic more often, Arabic is spreading online amongst young people faster than you think. It is far from dead.

    so you want the Lebanese to adopt a language that does not exist (arabo-phoenician) to replace Arabic, the language used in all News Channels, newspapers, articles,..etc?

    this whole phoenician obsession is something people get over when they are 12.
     
    Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

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    Languages are not created.

    correct Arabic is losing ground? how long have you been away from Lebanon? lol
    on facebook I have noticed a lot of my friends in the last 2 years using Arabic more often, Arabic is spreading online amongst young people faster than you think. It is far from dead.

    so you want the Lebanese to adopt a language that does not exist (arabo-phoenician) to replace Arabic, the language used in all News Channels, newspapers, articles,..etc?

    this whole phoenician obsession is something people get over when they are 12.
    Modern Standard Arabic (fos7a) is a dead language.
    Also, Phoenician and Lebanese Arabic represent more our culture, fos7a represent the culture of the Khalijis.
    Hebrew was a dead language, and used to only be used in liturgy, but the Jews, who are a people who respect their history, managed to revive it and give it a modern form.
    Also, what good did the Arabic culture (which is foreign to the Levant) bring uis?
     
    Reynold

    Reynold

    Member
    Modern Standard Arabic (fos7a) is a dead language.
    Also, Phoenician and Lebanese Arabic represent more our culture, fos7a represent the culture of the Khalijis.
    Hebrew was a dead language, and used to only be used in liturgy, but the Jews, who are a people who respect their history, managed to revive it and give it a modern form.
    Also, what good did the Arabic culture (which is foreign to the Levant) bring uis?
    Phoenicians (according to Romans texts) used to kill their own babies as sacrifices for their Gods.
    Also, Phoenician cities were always at war with each other, and they always invited invaders (Egyptians, Greeks..etc) to defeat one another.
    they also used to migrate and travel a lot (probably for economic and social reasons)
    Nothing changed.

    technically we're as phoenician as it gets, no need for language change
     
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