Should a neo-Phoenician language be introduced in Lebanon?

Robin Hood

Robin Hood

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Sistem qtîr hayyin, hala' houwwe mich sistême, houwwe jêye min el "IPA", yaane rah fasirlaq bil inglîze tahet michên qoun awdah.

IPA uses " ‘ " for "3ayn"
IPA uses " ' " for hamzeh

These symbols could be used but they can also be replaced in certain cases by letters:
-in words where "3ayn" comes after "a" like za3tar, a3zam : becomes zaatar, aazam
-
in words where hamzeh is orginally "kaf" like baqra (ba2ra) beqdir (be2dir)

As for the letters, follow the french alphabets (without the accents) and write the way you pronounce.

For long vowel add an accent like: inglîze, sistême (do that when you write formally)

3: ‘ or aa
2: ' or k
7: h (yup same as h)
h: h
gh: gh
kh:kh

chou ra'yaq?
Good except for the 7a.
 
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  • DLT

    DLT

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Good except for the 7a.
    thanks but the "H" is obvious when it's a 7 and when it's a h
    it's something that you memorize I guess
    helo
    marhaba
    bahdale

    I'm sure you read them right ;)

    7elo
    mar7aba
    bahdale
     
    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    Legendary Member
    I think that any topic about our history and our identity should be left to the scholars and not to the disgusting politicians with hidden agendas. Our history is truly unique and remarkable in how much of a melting pot of cultures it is and yet we are plagued with wannabe Arabs or Westerners. At the root cause of all of this are our history books and curriculum which are utter crap.

    Imagine that I had to learn from an American linguist about our Lebanese dialect rather than learn it at school. Didn't anyone of you ever wonder why "Look inside" in Lebanese is "Shoof joowwa" which is completely different than "Onzor fil dakhel"? Or why we sometime use the Subject-Verb order which very much at odds with the Arabic standard Verb-Subject order? Or why our verbs are sometimes in the plural form while a subject is used, such as "ijo el wled"?

    We should all be aware of all of our heritage instead it just feels a large part of it was hidden from us.

    You may think you're speaking Lebanese, but some of your words are really Syriac | News , Lebanon News | THE DAILY STAR
    BEIRUT: Did you speak any Syriac today? If you had an extended conversation in colloquial Lebanese Arabic, chances are you did. Although most languages are governed by rigid grammatical and orthographic rules, they are actually something very vivid, especially in their spoken forms. Spoken languages or dialects pick up vocabulary from other languages, often when the foreign term is more accurate to describe something.

    Today, one usually thinks in terms of English and French terms invading the colloquial Arabic spoken by Lebanese, but colloquial itself has borrowings from other languages. One key element of this heritage is the influence of Syriac or Aramaic terms and even grammatical structures on the Lebanese dialect of Arabic.

    Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Middle East from about the 12th century BC until the 9th century AD, when the spread of Islam allowed Arabic to take its place. Syriac, an Aramaic dialect originally spoken in the cities of Edessa and Antioch, was the predominant form of Aramaic from the second century AD onward and the only Aramaic dialect which existed in a written form.

    According to Mario Kozah, a professor of Syriac language and literature at the American University of Beirut, "Aramaic is a little bit like saying Arabic. When you say Arabic, you could mean Moroccan, Egyptian or Lebanese. In the same way, Aramaic is a general word that includes many different dialects," he explained.

    Some of the most important contacts of Syriac and Arabic took place at Beit al-Hikma (House of Wisdom), a center of science in Baghdad which flourished under the rule of the Abbasid caliph al-Maamun (d. 833). In this center, Greek philosophy was translated into Arabic, under Mamun's directives.

    "This school [Beit al-Hikma] was mainly a translation school where texts would be translated either from Syriac into Arabic or from Greek via Syriac into Arabic," Kozah said. "The Syriac translators first translated the Greek into a Syriac draft and then from the Syriac draft into Arabic."

    Syriac was selected because it had the technical terminology that aided the translation of Greek philosophy. Syriac and Arabic had a similar vocabulary, which then aided the translation of the Syriac draft into Arabic. But after Arabic established its own philosophical terminology, the translation via Syriac became unnecessary, Kozah explained.

    Today, it is difficult to determine exactly how much Syriac is left in what is called Classical Arabic. "They are both Semitic languages, and therefore a word is naturally being shared by these two languages," Kozah said. "Classical Arabic has been shaped over the centuries and smoothed over and developed in its own right, to such an extent that it isn't easy to really pick out the Syriac vocabulary in Classical Arabic."

    However, it is easier to catch the influence of the Syriac version of Aramaic in today's Lebanese colloquial Arabic.

    "Whatever it [the Lebanese dialect] picked up, it kept," and was not formalized like in Classical Arabic, Kozah explained.

    Today, it's not too difficult to pick up Aramaic traces in the Lebanese vocabulary.

    Kozah cited the example of "eimata" (or when) as being closer to the Syriac equivalent "emat" than the Classical Arabic expression "mata."

    The word "bobo" (baby) in Lebanese is a Syriac word without an equivalent in Arabic.

    The colloquial Lebanese Arabic expression "to be late" is "ta'awa'" which comes from the Syriac "et'aouaq."

    And from the realm of baby or toddler talk, "wawa" ("ouch" or "it hurts") happens to be quiet close to the Syriac "wawo," meaning pain. The words for inside and outside, "jawwa" and "barra," are Syriac too, Kozah said. In Syriac, "jaw" means inside, "bar" outside.

    Also, many place-names today in Lebanon are originally Aramaic, while different theories exist about what they really mean, Kozah said. These words mostly describe certain local geographic features that might be invisible today.

    Stefan Wild, a German linguist who penned a book about Lebanese place-names, wrote that "the spectrum of Lebanese place-names show us an enthralling and extraordinary vivid picture of yesterday."

    According to Wild, the town of Broummana means "House of the Pomegranate tree," (Beit al-Rumman), while another interpretation holds that the original meaning is potentially much older, as in Beit al-Rammana, the "house" of the Assyrian god of air, storm and thunder. Turzayya, to name another example, means "Mountain of Cedars."

    Even in Lebanese grammar, traces of Aramaic are still obvious. "Lebanese is not just Arabic without grammar," Kozah said. "You might think that a certain Lebanese structure [of a sentence] appears ungrammatical if you think about it in Classical Arabic terms. But if you go back to Syriac, you find that this Lebanese sentence is perfectly normal."

    Robert Gabriel, Syriac professor and president of the Association of Syriac Language Friends, agreed, saying that about 50 percent of the Lebanese grammatical structure is due to Syriac influences.

    The common Levantine expression is "ijul-uwlad," meaning "the children came." In this sentence, the verb "iju," which precedes the subject "al-uwlad" is in the plural form. In classical Arabic, such a sentence would be wrong, because a verb preceding the subject remains in the singular, even with a plural subject.

    "In Syriac, plural goes with plural, masculine goes with masculine, feminine with feminine," Gabriel said.

    Kozah said that in general, the word order in a Syriac sentence is very flexible, whereas in Classical Arabic, the sentence should start with a verb.

    "Sometimes, you emphasize something [in Lebanese dialect] by putting it at the beginning of the sentence. You can't really do that in Classical Arabic; you have to emphasize in a different way," he said.

    Furthermore, the sound of Syriac is preserved in some Lebanese dialects. Hany Touk, a Syriac teacher from Bsharri, explained that the "o" vowel in his village's dialect is typical of Syriac. He added that the preservation of this sound in the Bsharri dialect is due to Bsharri's long isolation from the outside world and the relatively low level of interaction with other languages.

    Kozah said the "e" vowel in the Lebanese dialect also comes from Syriac. This vowel, called "rboso" in Syriac, is not to be found in the Classical Arabic, he added. This vowel is preserved in the Lebanese pronunciation of "Lebanon," i.e. "Lebnen" and not "Lubnan" as in Classical Arabic.

    Finally, Syriac is still present in Lebanese poetry.

    "Some of the Syriac metrical system is still to be found in Lebanese zajal, in Lebanese popular poetry," Kozah said. "We find the influence there of early Syriac metrical systems."

    Although these examples might suggest that Arabic "borrowed" quiet a bit from Syriac, the two languages had a complex relationship.

    "We see very often examples of Arabic taking things further, absorbing them and then developing them," Kozah said.

    He stressed repeatedly that further research needs to be done in the field, where many theories still remain unproven, while citing some encouraging signs of public interest in Syriac.

    Kozah said that the language was being taught at AUB, in the beginner's course that has been growing increasingly popular. Syriac classes are also offered at Universite Saint-Esprit de Kaslik and St. Joseph's University, while it is a staple Sunday school offering among several Syriac Christian churches: the Chaldean Church, the Assyrian Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church.
     
    Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I think that any topic about our history and our identity should be left to the scholars and not to the disgusting politicians with hidden agendas. Our history is truly unique and remarkable in how much of a melting pot of cultures it is and yet we are plagued with wannabe Arabs or Westerners. At the root cause of all of this are our history books and curriculum which are utter crap.

    Imagine that I had to learn from an American linguist about our Lebanese dialect rather than learn it at school. Didn't anyone of you ever wonder why "Look inside" in Lebanese is "Shoof joowwa" which is completely different than "Onzor fil dakhel"? Or why we sometime use the Subject-Verb order which very much at odds with the Arabic standard Verb-Subject order? Or why our verbs are sometimes in the plural form while a subject is used, such as "ijo el wled"?

    We should all be aware of all of our heritage instead it just feels a large part of it was hidden from us.

    You may think you're speaking Lebanese, but some of your words are really Syriac | News , Lebanon News | THE DAILY STAR
    So we speak no Phoenician? :p
     
    Chanklish

    Chanklish

    Well-Known Member
    Sure once the pro-arabs and pro-oumah 3eyfe rabba are out
     
    DLT

    DLT

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I think that any topic about our history and our identity should be left to the scholars and not to the disgusting politicians with hidden agendas. Our history is truly unique and remarkable in how much of a melting pot of cultures it is and yet we are plagued with wannabe Arabs or Westerners. At the root cause of all of this are our history books and curriculum which are utter crap.

    Imagine that I had to learn from an American linguist about our Lebanese dialect rather than learn it at school. Didn't anyone of you ever wonder why "Look inside" in Lebanese is "Shoof joowwa" which is completely different than "Onzor fil dakhel"? Or why we sometime use the Subject-Verb order which very much at odds with the Arabic standard Verb-Subject order? Or why our verbs are sometimes in the plural form while a subject is used, such as "ijo el wled"?

    We should all be aware of all of our heritage instead it just feels a large part of it was hidden from us.

    You may think you're speaking Lebanese, but some of your words are really Syriac | News , Lebanon News | THE DAILY STAR
    I always wondered that :/
     
    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    Legendary Member
    So we speak no Phoenician? :p
    Not really :)
    We speak Lebanese (Or Levantine depending how granular you want to be). If you look at the scholarly opinions, it is an Arabic dialect that is the byproduct of the original Arabic mixing with Syriac the lingua franca of the area. The same happened elsewhere: Arabic mixed with Coptic in Egypt, Berber in the Maghreb, Greek in Cyprus etc.
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    How about having the lebanese language as official language? And use it in writing aswell i mean,
    Some already use Lebanese language as an official distinct language:

    Lebanese Language Institute » LLL Script



    Can you now read this --This is from Said Akl's magazin "Lebnaan"?:




    ***

    There is also a book for children to teach Lebanese language.

    Arabic must be one of most beautiful of languages :D

    Just the fact that so many can read it, speak it, understand it and write it beside having much, much different dialect from each others makes it a very advanced language.

    As for making the Lebo dialect a written language it is doomed with errors and failure.
    Also which of the Lebanese dialect are we even talking about?
     
    DLT

    DLT

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Lêzim ylêςo tarîςa michen neqtob Libnêne bi tarîςa charƹiyye w madroûse.
    W el lahje lle fiyon yistaƹmlouwa hiyye yalle byistaƹmlouwa ƹal television, hêq biqoun axsan chi. :)

    [ς:2 / ƹ:3 / x:7 => like said akl]
    [kh/ch/gh =>said akl actually removed the h from them]
    [ou => as in oo like we use it]
    [an accent for long vowels]
     
    Last edited:
    Dalzi

    Dalzi

    Legendary Member
    Not really :)
    We speak Lebanese (Or Levantine depending how granular you want to be). If you look at the scholarly opinions, it is an Arabic dialect that is the byproduct of the original Arabic mixing with Syriac the lingua franca of the area. The same happened elsewhere: Arabic mixed with Coptic in Egypt, Berber in the Maghreb, Greek in Cyprus etc.
    Ours (the Levantine dialect), in case you haven't noticed, is a polished dialect that is closest to the classic than any other in the region. That is food for thought.
     
    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    Legendary Member
    Ours (the Levantine dialect), in case you haven't noticed, is a polished dialect that is closest to the classic than any other in the region. That is food for thought.
    I was told that the closest would be the one in KSA/Yemen/GCC countries, the rationale being that it did not mix with anything there.
    For the Levantine one, am sure Syriac being a semitic language with similar roots than Arabic did help in keeping it closer than say Berber which is an Afro-Asiatic language. But even with that, it is quite distant. Case in point, children of Lebanese emigrants that only learned the spoken language barely get anything from the news on Lebanese TV, something that shocked me a bit.
     
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    DLT

    DLT

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    Ours (the Levantine dialect), in case you haven't noticed, is a polished dialect that is closest to the classic than any other in the region. That is food for thought.
    We are not the closest to the classic and let's not forget that as the new generation grow new words (non-arabic) keep adding to the Lebanese vocabulary while other arabic words are thrown in the garbage,
     
    Dalzi

    Dalzi

    Legendary Member
    We are not the closest to the classic and let's not forget that as the new generation grow new words (non-arabic) keep adding to the Lebanese vocabulary while other arabic words are thrown in the garbage,
    We are, that's a scientific fact. What new generation? Some throw words into the garbage while others know perfect Arabic. It's always been that way. Code switching is voluntary. Kella maye3a lol

    Oh and for the record, if trying to kill the language is the aim that will never happen especially that it's the language of the Quran. Kids nowadays are learning what my generation didn't. It's common to find a parent who can't string a proper sentence with a kid who reads and writes. Out of frustration at his inability to comprehend the language he teaches his kid.
     
    Dalzi

    Dalzi

    Legendary Member
    I was told that the closest would be the one in KSA/Yemen/GCC countries, the rationale being that it did not mix with anything there.
    For the Levantine one, am sure Syriac being a semitic language with similar roots than Arabic did help in keeping it closer than say Berber which is an Afro-Asiatic language. But even with that, it is quite distant. Case in point, children of Lebanese emigrants that only learned the spoken language barely get anything from the news on Lebanese TV, something that shocked me a bit.
    You were told? That's scientifically inaccurate. The Levant, has out of some bizzare evolutionary process (Mother language and education have a big role), preserved the polished version. They are the best at everything they do!

    Kids who learn the classic understand the news, Arabs teach their kids the classic and that's why they understand, while we don't (or didn't cz it's changed now). My relatives (adults) don't understand the news too lol They have Quran in Latin the losers :D Have you seen those books?
     
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