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Slavery in the Arab world

O Brother

O Brother

Legendary Member
I didn't read all of this, but the parts that I read do not change a thing to what we discussed so far:

- Muhammad condones slavery. Saying "be kind to your slaves" implies that you are allowed to have slaves.

- The best Muslims can come up with in defense of the Koran is that its teachings are inconsistant, and they are choosing the better parts and ignoring the bad parts.
Maybe you missed what you consider to be the "bad parts" of the Quran because you didn't read it all?

The NT condones slavery as well!
Also the fact that we do not have anything about Jesus talking against slavery must tell you something here!


But, most important of all, Muhammad himself had slaves. How can he be an abolitionist? What a ridiculous claim.
He was abolitionist as in working against slavery gradually!
You don't seems to understand that we are talking about a society that is 1400 years back in time!

Again slavery was more than just common!
 
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  • O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    I'm not being sectarian, I'm complimenting @Noborders by telling him he seems to have better values than his prophet :)
    You can keep your compliment in this case..

    Do you consider yourself to have better values than Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses etc?

    Seriously @Indie think deeply about what you are telling me here!
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    An Islamic response to ISIS Revival of Slavery

    Thanks be to God that we now live in a world where there is a global consensus against slavery.

    Our gratitude is intensified when we recognize that slavery was a persistent evil that existed not just in our ancient past as human beings, but continued until not very long ago in virtually all cultures and all religions.

    Yet, despite this significant progress, slavery has not been eradicated in our world today. And religion is now being used to defend this sinful practice.

    While we fight against different forms of slavery that persist today, there is a need for even louder faith-based voices against extremist groups like ISIS, which abuse the Quran to justify their crimes of enslaving prisoners and taking female prisoners as concubines.

    Although rape does not need a theology, ISIS claims to offer one.

    For that reason, it is important to have a clear, informed response based on Islamic sources.

    God’s commandment to emancipate slaves
    The Torah, the New Testament, and the Quran do not have any direct commandment calling for the abolishment of slavery. These scriptural revelations deal with the ancient practice of slavery as a fact of life in their historical context.

    However, unlike the Jewish and Christian sacred texts, which do not have any implicit or explicit mention of eliminating slavery, the emancipation of slaves was clearly intended by God in the Quran. This resulted in Prophet Muhammad launching a comprehensive campaign against slavery.

    God sets this goal for Muslims in the Quran, chapter 90, verses 10-14, to end this unjust practice of exploitation. This sacred text declares that the first task Muslims are commanded to do to achieve closeness to God is to free slaves. In a 2014 letter to ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, more than 100 top Islamic scholars from several countries reaffirmed in a signed statement that this is what these verses mean.

    Here are other references to the emancipation of slaves in the Quran:

    Anti-Slavery ethics of Islam
    • The equality of individuals, nations, and tribes is the cornerstone of Islamic ideals. (Quran 49:13, 4:1)
    • Freeing slaves was among the top commandments to develop piety: (Quran 2:177, 90:1-14)
    It is not righteousness that you turn your faces toward East or West; but it is righteousness . . . to spend of your substance . . . for the ransom of slaves. (Quran 2:177)

    • Freeing a human being from bondage is the only way to make up for accidently killing another human being. Freeing a person is, therefore, comparable to giving life, and bondage to death (Quran 4:92)
    • Free slaves to compensate for a sin or to compensate for a crime (Quran 5:89)
    • Marry female slaves (Quran 4:25)
    • Do not prostitute slaves (Quran 24:33)
    • Free a slave to reconcile wi1th one’s spouse (Quran 58:3-4)
    • Sexual relations with a slave was lawful only through marriage (Quran 4:25)
    • Nowhere does God prescribe slavery as punishment

    Islamic financing for slave emancipation
    The emancipation of slaves was not just limited to preaching. God created a permanent fund for it within the five pillars of Islam.
    • God designated two specific categories of the Zakat distribution for the liberation of slaves and those in debt. This was because in many cases, debt leads to bondage (Quran 9:60). In practice, however, Muslims used six out of the eight categories of Zakat to free slaves.
    • God commanded Muslims to accept contracts by slave women to buy their own freedom, and encouraged the owner to actually assist slave women financially in fulfilling such contracts (Quran 24:33).
    Zakat is the most important Islamic obligation second only to prayers. It is 2.5% of one’s wealth given on an annual basis by those who are not destitute themselves.

    God even chastises those who are not willing to share their wealth with slaves for the sake of an egalitarian society.

    God has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others: those more favored are not going to throw back their gifts with slaves, so as to be equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favors of Allah? (Quran 16:71)

    Eliminating the term “slave”
    God redefined the terms of “master” and “slave” as a loving relationship of obedience between Creator as Master and human beings as His slaves.
    • In Arabic the term “Abd” was used for a slave. God forbade that relationship with any human being, making it exclusively between humans and God (Quran 3:79)
    • That is why Muslims put the word “Abdul” (slave or servant of) in front of one of the Names of God when naming their children (e.g. Abdul Jabbar, Abdul Hakeem, etc.). It is not permitted to use the word “Abd” to describe a human-to-human relationship. That is also the reason Muslims don’t call each other “abdul” only, but instead, the full names “Abdul Malik” or “Abdul Kareem”, for example.
    The Anti-Slavery movement led by Prophet Muhammad
    Following the above stated commandments of God, the Prophet launched an anti-slavery movement in the following ways:

    • He personally liberated all of his slaves
    • Following the Prophet’s example, his Companions emancipated tens of thousands of slaves. It is estimated that they together freed more than 39,000 slaves[1]
    • Prophet Muhammad was so eager to liberate slaves that those prisoners of war who did not have the financial means were promised their freedom if each of them taught ten Muslims how to read
    • He also led a campaign against the practice by using spiritual censure. For example, he said that he would personally challenge anyone who had sold a free person as a slave on the Day of Judgment
    • The Prophet expanded the Quranic injunction of freeing slaves as a method to expiate for sins, allowing more slaves to be emancipated
    • The Prophet said “Whoever slaps his slave or beats him, his expiation is to liberate him.”
    For Prophet Muhammad and his Companions, liberating slaves was not just an optional aspect of faith. It was a means of reaching spiritual excellence and closeness to God.

    This is why Khadija, his wife, and Abu Bakr, both wealthy businesspersons, became almost penniless buying slaves their freedom.

    It was because of this anti-slavery movement that most people who accepted the Prophet’s invitation to believe in One God and join his peace movement were slaves as was his treasurer Bilal ibn Rabah, May God be pleased with him.

    This core message of the equality of all human beings (Quran 49:13) attracted Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X), Muhammad Ali, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, among hundreds of thousands of African-Americans, as well as millions of former untouchables in India, to Islam.1

    The Prophet was an egalitarian. In his most famous sermon at the only Hajj he performed he declared:

    "All men are like brothers: the black has no superiority over the white, nor has an Arab any preferential claim on a non-Arab. All are sons of Adam and Adam was made out of clay."

    The only Quranic verse, 47:4, abused by ISIS through misinterpretation, authorizes the capture not of slaves but of prisoners of war.

    This was ordered in a context when there was no prison system and there were no prisoner-of-war camps. Army commanders were either to free prisoners without financial compensation or to hold them for ransom.

    While leading a movement toward the emancipation of slaves, the Prophet ordered all to treat slaves as their equals, declaring that slaves are merely brothers and sisters whom God has placed under one's authority. He ordered that they should all eat the same food and be equally clothed. Moreover, they should not be required to do what would overburden them, otherwise the owner should personally assist in carrying out the labor.

    In the Quran, God praises those who followed the Prophet’s example in freeing slaves

    “…of their burden and the shackles which were upon them…”, calling them the successful people (Quran 7:157).

    Sex Slaves
    In human history, enslaved women or concubines were sexual pawns, passed from owner to owner, often prostituted to the highest bidder. Unfortunately, a similar system continues today, but in a different form. Former United States President Jimmy Carter has said that in 2013 alone “there were 100,000 girls sold into sexual slavery” in America. This is the modern face of slavery.

    Prophet Muhammad’s movement against slavery challenged this form of exploitation as well. It used both legal and moral measures to address it:

    • It made the prostitution of all women illegal
    • It prohibited dividing up slave families
    • It asked Muslims to marry slave women (Quran 24:32)
    • It legislated that sex can only be through marriage
    • It commanded that the children of slave woman must inherit equally as children from a wife who is a free woman, and they must be set free. Their mother cannot be sold and must be freed.
    Muslim men who owned female slaves were highly encouraged to emancipate them, instead of living in a system that promoted their exploitation. Prophet Muhammad said:

    Whoever educates a slave woman, treats her nicely, liberates her, and marries her, will be rewarded twice.

    In short, the aim was to end the sexual exploitation of women, and slavery generally.

    How Muslims abandoned the Prophetic movement against slavery
    Muslims inherited the ancient practice of slavery, but the Quran presented a comprehensive plan to end it and the Prophet launched a campaign to eliminate it.

    Unfortunately, after the Prophet and his Companions passed away, the ideal period of Islam turned into kingship. Muslim kings, by and large, began adopting the ways of the world instead of pursuing the direction set by God and the Prophet.

    Although there is nothing in Islamic history that compares to the horrors of slavery practiced in the United States, (for example, Muslim slaves established slave dynasties in Egypt and India), slavery did remain a fact of life throughout the world, including in Muslim lands. Muslim slave traders were also responsible for collaborating with Christian raiders and Jewish traders in the slave trade.

    However, many examples exist in Islamic history of individuals and groups who fought against slavery and continued the Islamic tradition of liberating slaves. One such instance is the anti-slavery struggle of Othman Dan Fodio. When the West was harvesting slaves from West Africa, Muslims were a minority in those areas. But, thanks to Fodio’s movement, more and more people started living under his anti-slave trade areas of West Africa. This eventually led to the transformation of West Africa into a majority Muslim region.

    Unfortunately, it is this history of the presence of slavery, along with an old corpus of legal opinions surrounding that practice in Muslim empires, that ISIS is using to build their theology of slavery and rape.

    Why slavery cannot be revived
    Slavery cannot be revived because it goes against God’s plan and the Prophet’s movement to eliminate it. It is against Islam’s core value of egalitarianism.

    ISIS uses the mere mention of slavery in the Quran to justify slavery and rape, completely ignoring the clear Quranic direction toward elimination of slavery, God instituting funding for liberation of slaves, and the Prophetic emancipation movement. It is a clear violation of Islamic principles and teachings, as Islamic scholars in America and the Muslim world have made clear.[2]

    Although ISIS doesn’t seem amenable to reason, here is an Islamic theological reasoning against the revival of slavery:

    • Whereas God has never ordered anyone to establish slavery;
    • Whereas not a single verse in the Quran commands that the practice of slavery be continued or reinstated;
    • Since God has told us to follow Him, the Prophet, and our leaders (…ulil Amre Minkum Quran 4:59);
      • and since our leaders and governments, have signed treaties to prohibit slavery;
      • and since it is God’s command to abide by our treaties;
      • and since this universal consensus of humanity does not violate any order of God or His Prophet, the treaties prohibiting slavery cannot be violated
    therefore, slavery cannot be revived.

    • Since the direction of the Quran is toward the liberation of slaves;
    • Since this is the consensus (Ijmah) of Islamic scholars and the Muslims government;
    • Since violating our treaties is a sin,
    it is, therefore a sin to enslave free people now, or buy and sell them.

    May Allah liberate the Ummah and humanity from this new fitnah.

    You can download a pdf file of this article here for printing and distribution.

    Sound Vision has printed this article and you can order it by sending an email to [email protected] for a larger quantity for free distribution.
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    How did this thread turn again into a religious warfare, naturally after Indie was not able to resist her extremist and sectarian urges to bash Islam at every single opportunity she can get her hands on.

    Who's the troll?
    The problem here is that some people would rather have Muslims interpreting the Quran the way so called ISIS do!

    For ex. if I bring something here that has interpretation they don't like because it draw Islam as something good and positive they will tell you it is all false and whitewashing Islam and the Quran.

    But anything from the haters websites is well accepted and this must be Islam and this must be the right interpretation of the Quran and Islam!

    Why? because it fits in with their own narrow that Islam is evil and must be eliminated somehow!

    The best part they want to accuse your faith but they think their is all pure and all simple not with thousands of different bad and good interpretationst!

    I can easily admit that yes sometimes there are some certain Ahadith or other things that do not make sense to me and find it hard to accept them!
    But this is pretty normal and this is true to most people even for those from different faiths they can also sometimes find themselves within this same circle!
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Maybe you missed what you consider to be the "bad parts" of the Quran because you didn't read it all?
    The parts I read confirmed my initial stance that, at best, the koran is inconsistant.

    The NT condones slavery as well!
    No it doesn't. Either provide evidence for this claim or stop spreading misinformation.

    Also the fact that we do not have anything about Jesus talking against slavery must tell you something here!
    You were provided quotes and explanations to the contrary.

    He was abolitionist as in working against slavery gradually!
    You don't seems to understand that we are talking about a society that is 1400 years back in time!

    Again slavery was more than just common!
    Again with the abolitionist who enslaved people and encouraged his men to do the same...

    A real abolitionist, even while recognizing that he can't change society overnight, would at least avoid doing the things he wants to change, in order to set an example.

    At this point, you are not bringing anything new to the conversation, nor are you refuting my arguments. You are simply repeating the arguments I already refuted.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    You can keep your compliment in this case..

    Do you consider yourself to have better values than Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses etc?

    Seriously @Indie think deeply about what you are telling me here!
    I know exactly what I am saying. I am saying that you and I both have better values than Muhammad.
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    The parts I read confirmed my initial stance that, at best, the koran is inconsistant.
    Oh well I don't even know what parts you are talking about! So if you want to make a point you have be more specific!


    No it doesn't. Either provide evidence for this claim or stop spreading misinformation.
    Lets see.. you have Paul the most important man in Christianity in his letter to Philemon returning a slave to his owner..

    And again the NT is asking the slaves to be obedience not be rebellious against their owners and also asking the owners to treat their slaves good. Now.. no doubt that back in that age this would be considered a good call.

    Peter 2:18, NLT: "You who are slaves must accept the authority of your masters with all respect. Do what they tell you--not only if they are kind and reasonable, but even if they are cruel."

    Colossians 3:22: “Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth”

    Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

    different trans: Ephesians 6:5) “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.”

    1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"
    ----------------------

    Take this pro slavery priest words for ex.

    Episcopal Bishop John Henry Hopkins in 1864: “The Bible’s defense of slavery is very plain. St. Paul was inspired and knew the will of the Lord Jesus Christ and was only intent on obeying it. And who are we that in our modern wisdom presume to set aside the Word of God and invent for ourselves a higher law than those Holy Scriptures which are given to us as a light to our feet and a lamp to our path.”


    What I'm trying to make you understanding here that interpretations can differ and can be used widely differently..
    You are somehow obsessing on one specific understanding or interpretation when it comes to Islam only to fit your own narrow against Islam!


    You were provided quotes and explanations to the contrary.
    It is pretty well known that there isn't anything on this specifically.
    I'm sure Jesus actually addressed the slave issue but there are no actual verses or anything that tell us Jesus spoke against slavery in specific!

    The closest we can get in this regard is probably Luke 4:18

    But nothing about slavery in specific!


    Again with the abolitionist who enslaved people and encouraged his men to do the same...

    A real abolitionist, even while recognizing that he can't change society overnight, would at least avoid doing the things he wants to change, in order to set an example.

    At this point, you are not bringing anything new to the conversation, nor are you refuting our arguments. You are simply repeating the arguments we already refuted.
    You didn't refute anything you are just acting like a little crazy girl who is not willing to accept that Muslims can be actually against slavery from the teachings of Islam!


    I know exactly what I am saying. I am saying that you and I both have better values than Muhammad.
    Then answer my question forget about everything I said earlier and answer me on this only:

    Do you consider yourself to have better values than Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses etc?
     
    Last edited:
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Yes indeed my knowledge are very basic.. and I never claimed otherwise, I'm probably the last one here that should be debating this!

    So anyway could you tell me what are the laws of slavery in the NT in this case and how different are they from the OT?
    There are clearly some verses in the NT that talks about the treatment of slaves so what are these laws as simple as that!

    You are telling me basically one is bad or even evil and one to be all loving and so on!?

    And both are supposed to be from the same Author! Clearly there is a contradiction that goes against all logic specially if you adhere to a monotheistic belief!

    If the NT came to fulfill the laws..or the prophets etc. and not to abolish them then as Christian why are you abolishing them today by arguing against the OT! Is the OT corrupted? if yes then I would understand this but you don't claim it is !
    let's start with this. there are no such things as laws in Christianity. there are no static laws in the NT. Christ freed us from the Laws. There is only one rule upon which everything else is based, Love for God and Love for the other. we do not have thousands upon thousands of books dictating how to behave in every situation, all our decisions are based upon the above two rules, we decide them in our hearts and our minds. love for the other prohibits the enslavement of the other, period, that's the end of it. more to it, the Love God has for us frees us from slavery even towards God, and we become the sons of God freely offering our worship.

    But now you are again going to a totally different thing when you are talking like this!
    not really. it is all a continuous reality. when God, our teacher, kneels down and washes the feet of his disciples announcing that He came to serve not to be served, it provides a valuable lesson to us all. we should be thriving to lovingly serve others and each other, there is no room for slavery - where God's people are treated like property and are forced to serve us - in that.

    We are not talking about some kind of salvation here but about the laws regarding slavery and so on!

    I can also make another similar argument out from God's Mercy but this is not what we are really talking about here!

    Your bibles like the Quran acknowledge slavery!
    Even the NT do not speak against it either!
    I just don't get the dismissal of the OT by the Christians faith whenever it suits them.
    you seem to be under the impression that i am lying to you or that i have misunderstood Christianity or that i am more interested in scoring points when i tell you that Christ over ruled much of the OT? Christ came to fulfill the laws in the meaning that the law is fulfilled in Christ. the laws that were given to the Jews were made complete in Christ, in His person.

    i am not participating in a contest of stubbornness or denial nor am i aiming to mislead you with false information. so i can only wonder why after having repeated that so many times to you before, we still have to always start from square 1 about the OT/NT, the laws, etc...

    we do not have explicit laws. we have rather a compass that points to God and a dynamic filter/process that enables us to make all kinds of decisions on our own without the needs for millions of laws.

    Okay so how were these rights more in favor of the slaves under the Jewish law?
    i already told you how the jewish laws are kinder on the slaves:
    it is also written that masters are forbidden to rape their female slaves, and in case any master inflicted any bodily harm on any slave then the slave should go free. if a master takes the life of a slave, then he should pay for it with his own, that jewish slaves be let free every 6 years, they were not allowed to castrate slaves, etc..​

    The prophet was living in a time slavery was not seen or considered as cruel or evil as we look into it now days!
    and in what times do you think Jesus was living?

    Most prophet if not all of them dealt with slaves your bibles are a proof of that.. the fact that you are not willing to acknowledge this shows some ignorance and extreme bias from your part!
    neither Jesus nor any of his disciples owned, traded, captured slaves, let alone raped captives of wars..

    The prophet Muhammad ASW at the end of the day didn't live in some kind of palace.. or was extremely wealthy.. the man lived the simplest life you could think of and he ate from the most basic food you could think of..
    i cannot help but feel stricken, having to use a verse that indicates 1/5th of the spoils of war, or "war booty" as used in the translation, went to the prophet. i do not think he could have remained all that poor afterwards.

    وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا غَنِمْتُم مِّن شَيْءٍ فَأَنَّ لِلَّهِ خُمُسَهُ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَالْيَتَامَىٰ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ إِن كُنتُمْ آمَنتُم بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَىٰ عَبْدِنَا يَوْمَ الْفُرْقَانِ يَوْمَ الْتَقَى الْجَمْعَانِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

    And know that anything you obtain of war booty - then indeed, for Allah is one fifth of it and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and the orphans, the needy, and the [stranded] traveler, if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the day of criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah , over all things, is competent.​

    the quran states that the prophet became rich:

    وَالضُّحَىٰ
    وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا سَجَىٰ
    مَا وَدَّعَكَ رَبُّكَ وَمَا قَلَىٰ
    وَلَلْآخِرَةُ خَيْرٌ لَّكَ مِنَ الْأُولَىٰ
    وَلَسَوْفَ يُعْطِيكَ رَبُّكَ فَتَرْضَىٰ
    أَلَمْ يَجِدْكَ يَتِيمًا فَآوَىٰ
    وَوَجَدَكَ ضَالًّا فَهَدَىٰ
    وَوَجَدَكَ عَائِلًا فَأَغْنَىٰ
    فَأَمَّا الْيَتِيمَ فَلَا تَقْهَرْ
    وَأَمَّا السَّائِلَ فَلَا تَنْهَرْ
    وَأَمَّا بِنِعْمَةِ رَبِّكَ فَحَدِّثْ
    what do you think of this hadith btw?

    وأتي رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بكنانة بن الربيع ، وكان عنده كنز بني النضير ، فسأله عنه . فجحد أن يكون يعرف مكانه ، فأتى رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - رجل من يهود ، فقال لرسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - : إني رأيت كنانة يطيف بهذه الخربة كل غداة ؛ فقال رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - لكنانة : [ ص: 337 ] أرأيت إن وجدناه عندك ، أأقتلك ؟ قال : نعم .

    فأمر رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بالخربة فحفرت ، فأخرج منها بعض كنزهم ، ثم سأله عما بقي ، فأبى أن يؤديه ، فأمر به رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - الزبير بن العوام ، فقال : عذبه حتى تستأصل ما عنده فكان الزبير يقدح بزند في صدره ، حتى أشرف على نفسه ، ثم دفعه رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - إلى محمد بن مسلمة ، فضرب عنقه بأخيه محمود بن مسلمة .
    source
    and then the tribe of fedk were terrorized by what the prophet did to the tribe of khaybar, and offered him half their possessions. so just by these two instances, i think he was not as poor as most muslims would like to believe.

    قال ابن إسحاق : فلما فرغ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم من خيبر قذف الله الرعب في قلوب أهل فدك ، حين بلغهم ما أوقع الله تعالى بأهل خيبر ، فبعثوا إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يصالحونه على النصف من فدك ، فقامت عليه رسلهم بخيبر ، أو بالطائف ، أو بعد ما قدم المدينة ، فقبل ذلك منهم ، فكانت فدك لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خالصة ، لأنه لم يوجف عليها بخيل ولا ركاب [ ص: 354 ]

    تسمية النفر الداريين الذين أوصى لهم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم من خيبر

    source
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    let's start with this. there are no such things as laws in Christianity. there are no static laws in the NT. Christ freed us from the Laws. There is only one rule upon which everything else is based, Love for God and Love for the other. we do not have thousands upon thousands of books dictating how to behave in every situation, all our decisions are based upon the above two rules, we decide them in our hearts and our minds. love for the other prohibits the enslavement of the other, period, that's the end of it. more to it, the Love God has for us frees us from slavery even towards God, and we become the sons of God freely offering our worship.
    Yes you are right and that is the teaching of Paul again!

    We have yet to see this love in practice.. Reality is unfortunately different from this!
    But any individual who is true to love then I can't but give my salutes and respect to him or her!

    Love simply do not ascribe to a single religion or a group but to individuals who truly seeks it and usually they are the ones who care deeply for others and these kind of people are to be found in every large group of people!



    not really. it is all a continuous reality. when God, our teacher, kneels down and washes the feet of his disciples announcing that He came to serve not to be served, it provides a valuable lesson to us all. we should be thriving to lovingly serve others and each other, there is no room for slavery - where God's people are treated like property and are forced to serve us - in that.

    you seem to be under the impression that i am lying to you or that i have misunderstood Christianity or that i am more interested in scoring points when i tell you that Christ over ruled much of the OT? Christ came to fulfill the laws in the meaning that the law is fulfilled in Christ. the laws that were given to the Jews were made complete in Christ, in His person.

    i am not participating in a contest of stubbornness or denial nor am i aiming to mislead you with false information. so i can only wonder why after having repeated that so many times to you before, we still have to always start from square 1 about the OT/NT, the laws, etc...

    we do not have explicit laws. we have rather a compass that points to God and a dynamic filter/process that enables us to make all kinds of decisions on our own without the needs for millions of laws.
    No I don't think you misunderstand your own religion which is clearly the Pauline Christianity.. which is what the vast majority of Christians falls under! But I think you and others have a very bad attitude or bad approach to other people from different faiths or to Muslims in specific... I have stated many times my respect to Christianity despite the differences we have but I also acknowledge the similarities yet you and others here can not let go of what religion I adhere to.. as every time I have to give my opinion about something.. you feel obligated to bring it up :) anyhow this is not the topic so there is no need to talk about this and for me it is never about scoring points in these kind of debates but about exchanging information, different understandings and learning from each others etc,

    Me bringing up the OT is totally valid.. even if you were freed from it and from the laws of Moses by whomever .. you can still hold an opinion about the OT and explain why the OT was good and then became bad that you had to be freed from!

    Specially when you hold the belief that the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT!



    i already told you how the jewish laws are kinder on the slaves:
    it is also written that masters are forbidden to rape their female slaves, and in case any master inflicted any bodily harm on any slave then the slave should go free. if a master takes the life of a slave, then he should pay for it with his own, that jewish slaves be let free every 6 years, they were not allowed to castrate slaves, etc..
    But these things are not allowed in Islam either so what is your point here..?


    and in what times do you think Jesus was living?
    How much do we really know about the prophet Jesus (pbuh) compared to how much we know about Muhammad (pbuh) through Hadith that speaks of him in the smallest details you could think of!

    Jesus lived in time when slavery was well accepted and part of the social life but do we have any actual sayings of Jesus against slavery in particular?
    And please do not use your wild card about your faith in LOVE and whatever.. I'm asking in specifics!



    neither Jesus nor any of his disciples owned, traded, captured slaves, let alone raped captives of wars..
    There is no need to be sneaky mister!

    I never said they did anything of that! And I never accused them for raping and such!
    My question was clear.. did the prophets in the bibles deal with slaves? Would you consider Solomon to be an evil prophet and a rapist?

    I get it .. you hold the belief that you are liberated from the OT but then again how do you explain the goodness of these prophets who were dealing with concubines and slaves? do you think they were evil do you think the law of Moses to be evil?

    I guess Paul have all the answers for that but Jesus don't!


    i cannot help but feel stricken, having to use a verse that indicates 1/5th of the spoils of war, or "war booty" as used in the translation, went to the prophet. i do not think he could have remained all that poor afterwards.

    وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا غَنِمْتُم مِّن شَيْءٍ فَأَنَّ لِلَّهِ خُمُسَهُ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَالْيَتَامَىٰ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ إِن كُنتُمْ آمَنتُم بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَىٰ عَبْدِنَا يَوْمَ الْفُرْقَانِ يَوْمَ الْتَقَى الْجَمْعَانِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

    And know that anything you obtain of war booty - then indeed, for Allah is one fifth of it and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and the orphans, the needy, and the [stranded] traveler, if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the day of criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah , over all things, is competent.
    the quran states that the prophet became rich:

    وَالضُّحَىٰ
    وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا سَجَىٰ
    مَا وَدَّعَكَ رَبُّكَ وَمَا قَلَىٰ
    وَلَلْآخِرَةُ خَيْرٌ لَّكَ مِنَ الْأُولَىٰ
    وَلَسَوْفَ يُعْطِيكَ رَبُّكَ فَتَرْضَىٰ
    أَلَمْ يَجِدْكَ يَتِيمًا فَآوَىٰ
    وَوَجَدَكَ ضَالًّا فَهَدَىٰ
    وَوَجَدَكَ عَائِلًا فَأَغْنَىٰ
    فَأَمَّا الْيَتِيمَ فَلَا تَقْهَرْ
    وَأَمَّا السَّائِلَ فَلَا تَنْهَرْ
    وَأَمَّا بِنِعْمَةِ رَبِّكَ فَحَدِّثْ
    what do you think of this hadith btw?

    وأتي رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بكنانة بن الربيع ، وكان عنده كنز بني النضير ، فسأله عنه . فجحد أن يكون يعرف مكانه ، فأتى رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - رجل من يهود ، فقال لرسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - : إني رأيت كنانة يطيف بهذه الخربة كل غداة ؛ فقال رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - لكنانة : [ ص: 337 ] أرأيت إن وجدناه عندك ، أأقتلك ؟ قال : نعم .

    فأمر رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بالخربة فحفرت ، فأخرج منها بعض كنزهم ، ثم سأله عما بقي ، فأبى أن يؤديه ، فأمر به رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - الزبير بن العوام ، فقال : عذبه حتى تستأصل ما عنده فكان الزبير يقدح بزند في صدره ، حتى أشرف على نفسه ، ثم دفعه رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - إلى محمد بن مسلمة ، فضرب عنقه بأخيه محمود بن مسلمة .
    source
    and then the tribe of fedk were terrorized by what the prophet did to the tribe of khaybar, and offered him half their possessions. so just by these two instances, i think he was not as poor as most muslims would like to believe.

    قال ابن إسحاق : فلما فرغ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم من خيبر قذف الله الرعب في قلوب أهل فدك ، حين بلغهم ما أوقع الله تعالى بأهل خيبر ، فبعثوا إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يصالحونه على النصف من فدك ، فقامت عليه رسلهم بخيبر ، أو بالطائف ، أو بعد ما قدم المدينة ، فقبل ذلك منهم ، فكانت فدك لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خالصة ، لأنه لم يوجف عليها بخيل ولا ركاب [ ص: 354 ]

    تسمية النفر الداريين الذين أوصى لهم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم من خيبر

    source
    What I was trying to tell you that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived an extremely humble life...
    He could have acquired much more than what he had.. but the fact that he remained humble and always chose simplicity over luxury must says something!

    Most of the the wealth the prophet acquired went to Sadaqa by the way, let it be when he was alive or after his death!
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Yes you are right and that is the teaching of Paul again!

    We have yet to see this love in practice.. Reality is unfortunately different from this!
    But any individual who is true to love then I can't but give my salutes and respect to him or her!

    Love simply do not ascribe to a single religion or a group but to individuals who truly seeks it and usually they are the ones who care deeply for others and these kind of people are to be found in every large group of people!
    in an effort to discredit Christianity many people claim these are strictly pauline teachings, but in reality these are the teachings of all disciples and they are found in all the gospels.

    Matthew 22:
    37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

    John 1:17
    For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    Acts 13:39
    through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

    you are right though on the manifestation of Love. being Christian is meaningless if it doesn't catalyze the Love in a person's life, and that's why Christ transcends religion in the fatherly perspective sense.

    No I don't think you misunderstand your own religion which is clearly the Pauline Christianity.. which is what the vast majority of Christians falls under! But I think you and others have a very bad attitude or bad approach to other people from different faiths or to Muslims in specific... I have stated many times my respect to Christianity despite the differences we have but I also acknowledge the similarities yet you and others here can not let go of what religion I adhere to.. as every time I have to give my opinion about something.. you feel obligated to bring it up :) anyhow this is not the topic so there is no need to talk about this and for me it is never about scoring points in these kind of debates but about exchanging information, different understandings and learning from each others etc,
    Christianity is very guilty of not attempting to bring the message of Christ into the very heart of the islamic world, where it is needed the most. unfortunately the muslim psyche has been trained to consider this as an act of aggression, a bad attitude as you have described it, and consequently most muslims are unable to react appropriately towards it.

    the reality of the matter though is that a big part of the quran is dedicated to judge and criticize our own faith - more like to wrongly pass judgment on a very distorted perception of our faith -, but yet you personally as well as the muslim world overall are still not very accepting of objective criticism and considers to be a bad attitude towards islam? that is messed up.

    Me bringing up the OT is totally valid.. even if you were freed from it and from the laws of Moses by whomever .. you can still hold an opinion about the OT and explain why the OT was good and then became bad that you had to be freed from!

    Specially when you hold the belief that the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT!
    we do not hold such notions. God of the OT and God of the NT. think of it more as trying to observe something through a thick haze, and the closer you get to it the better you see it. this is how the journey has been towards Christ. the OT is a series/collection of records, witness accounts, prophecies, etc, leading towards Christ. the NT is a witness account about Christ.

    But these things are not allowed in Islam either so what is your point here..?
    you were making the claim that islam was a pioneer in addressing the freedom of slaves 1600 years ago, i pointed out that you were wrong, and showed you how the jewish law more than 3000 years addressed that, in addition to being more lenient towards slaves in general.

    How much do we really know about the prophet Jesus (pbuh) compared to how much we know about Muhammad (pbuh) through Hadith that speaks of him in the smallest details you could think of!
    based on the islamic scripture, muslims know next to nothing about Christ, and most of what the quran lists about Christianity is a compilation of misconceptions and wrong understandings.

    if you want to known and understand Christ and understand His message, you do so through the gospels. if you want to know and understand prophet muhammad you do so through the sira and the hadith. put them side by side and read them.

    Jesus lived in time when slavery was well accepted and part of the social life but do we have any actual sayings of Jesus against slavery in particular?
    And please do not use your wild card about your faith in LOVE and whatever.. I'm asking in specifics!
    in order to understand that, you have to take a step further back, right towards your perception of what religion is. this is how far the divide goes. prophet muhammed came to arabia with thousands of shari3a laws inspired by the jewish religion covering every single aspect of people's life. how to dress, how to drink, what to eat, how to go to the bathroom, how to wash, etc... all kinds of topics, including slaves and slavery that are relevant to this discussion.

    Christ on the other hand came to announce that all of that does not matter, what matters is the person's heart, if the heart is in the right place, everything else will follow and will be good. thus he didn't address any of these subjects in their singularities.

    i think that is the simplest form of the answer. the level would be that Christ addressed a different form of slavery, one that is more essential to mankind and its relation with the Creator. to be liberated from that will end all manifestations of evil. the islamic scriptures in particular the quran are oblivious to this and other spiritual dimensions.


    There is no need to be sneaky mister!
    I never said they did anything of that! And I never accused them for raping and such!
    it was simply something for you to ponder upon. why didn't Christ and his disciples own, buy, sell, or trade slaves; and why in contrast prophet muhamad and friends did?

    My question was clear.. did the prophets in the bibles deal with slaves? Would you consider Solomon to be an evil prophet and a rapist?
    the life of a prophet or a saint is not much different from ours in its struggles and in so that even if we are often close to God we sometimes fall and lose our way.

    1 Kings 11
    4 For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and did not wholly follow the Lord, as David his father had done. 7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 8 And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their gods.​

    I get it .. you hold the belief that you are liberated from the OT but then again how do you explain the goodness of these prophets who were dealing with concubines and slaves? do you think they were evil do you think the law of Moses to be evil?
    one of the main concerns i have with islam is that it creates layers upon layers of misconceptions in the minds of believers. prophets simple men, who struggle and fall and repent and make mistakes. just because they at some point in their life give a prophecy does not make them eternally free of sin. they remain human and they do err.

    I guess Paul have all the answers for that but Jesus don't!
    here is a passage for you to ponder upon so that you would understand Jesus a bit a better.
    31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

    34 Jesus answered them, “
    Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”



    What I was trying to tell you that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived an extremely humble life...
    He could have acquired much more than what he had.. but the fact that he remained humble and always chose simplicity over luxury must says something!

    Most of the the wealth the prophet acquired went to Sadaqa by the way, let it be when he was alive or after his death!
    was that wealth mainly earned from raids and wars?
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    Christianity is very guilty of not attempting to bring the message of Christ into the very heart of the islamic world, where it is needed the most. unfortunately the muslim psyche has been trained to consider this as an act of aggression, a bad attitude as you have described it, and consequently most muslims are unable to react appropriately towards it.
    Christians were busy spreading the love to other continents against the natives!
    Now we are the main focus of this love again by bombarding our little babies for business!

    So please bring the love to your own countries first before talking in that manner!


    the reality of the matter though is that a big part of the quran is dedicated to judge and criticize our own faith - more like to wrongly pass judgment on a very distorted perception of our faith -, but yet you personally as well as the muslim world overall are still not very accepting of objective criticism and considers to be a bad attitude towards islam? that is messed up.
    I'm not against criticizing but clearly for many insulting others religion is criticizing!

    you were making the claim that islam was a pioneer in addressing the freedom of slaves 1600 years ago, i pointed out that you were wrong, and showed you how the jewish law more than 3000 years addressed that, in addition to being more lenient towards slaves in general.
    Not me I actually quoted non Muslim historians who said so..
    But hey Muslims and Islams are bad and evil so no what they says must be wrong!


    based on the islamic scripture, muslims know next to nothing about Christ, and most of what the quran lists about Christianity is a compilation of misconceptions and wrong understandings.

    if you want to known and understand Christ and understand His message, you do so through the gospels. if you want to know and understand prophet muhammad you do so through the sira and the hadith. put them side by side and read them.
    If you know so much about Jesus then how come so many things has nothing to do with Jesus in Christianity!



    the life of a prophet or a saint is not much different from ours in its struggles and in so that even if we are often close to God we sometimes fall and lose our way.

    1 Kings 11
    4 For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and did not wholly follow the Lord, as David his father had done. 7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 8 And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their gods.
    I asked a simple question that you are not willing to answer..
    I didn't talk about whether prophets sins or whatever I asked do you consider the prophets of the bible to be evil or bad for dealing with slaves and even having concubines? I'm just trying to show you, your and indie's double standards in all of this!
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    Now back to the subject here...

    Arab regimes as usual are puppet to the Western powers..

    We the Middle Eastern and Africans have a common struggle and one enemy!
    If anything the Arab regime should stop being a buffer zone for Europe and let the Africans flood into western Europe!

    After all our stolen wealth is in many of these western countries!
     
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