Slavery in the Arab world

Dark Angel

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
Christians were busy spreading the love to other continents against the natives!
Now we are the main focus of this love again by bombarding our little babies for business!
So please bring the love to your own countries first before talking in that manner!
it is simply amazing. i am honestly unsure whether you do not get it, whether you cannot get it, or whether you do not want to get it.

we have gone over this thousands of times. if you find anything in Christianity that validates the violent actions committed by these countries, please bring it forth.

you cannot correlate Christianity and its teachings to the wars committed by these countries. every single act of violence against other people they are committing is an anti-Christian act.

the same cannot be said about islam where the violence is validated in the scriptures, in the quran, in the hadith, and in the life of the prophet himself..

I'm not against criticizing but clearly for many insulting others religion is criticizing!
i challenge you to find a single instance where i have insulted islam or muslims. it is what i said it is. you can neither handle nor process criticism, and this is how you always retaliate when faced with truth.
Not me I actually quoted non Muslim historians who said so..
But hey Muslims and Islams are bad and evil so no what they says must be wrong!
what he says is actually 100% wrong and is as far away from a scholarly article as can be. that was a biased and a subjective article that is uninformed and misleading. the fact that you still do no realize that despite being shown what the jewish law which predates islam and muhammad by 3000 years states about that subject is beyond odd.

can you at least process the logic of that?
If you know so much about Jesus then how come so many things has nothing to do with Jesus in Christianity!
completely meaningless comeback my friend.

I asked a simple question that you are not willing to answer..
I didn't talk about whether prophets sins or whatever I asked do you consider the prophets of the bible to be evil or bad for dealing with slaves and even having concubines? I'm just trying to show you, your and indie's double standards in all of this!
pfffffffffff... why do you subscribe to these notions that we are not willing to answer or that we cannot answer or that you have asked the one question that is detrimental to our cause and we had no choice but to ignore it?

i have answered you very directly, and you were not able to understand it. i quoted you a passage from the old testament that states:
"So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and did not wholly follow the Lord, as David his father had done."​

the very bible presents you an example stating that solomon, a prophet, did what was evil.

we do not share your islamic perception of prophets. prophets are human beings who struggle and endure more than us to be close to God. being a prophet doesn't make everything a person does automatically right. prophets struggle more than others and endure more than others to stay close to God, some of them simply fail at times and go wrong. veracity and righteousness is the balance by which their actions are assessed, not the other way around.
 
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  • O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    it is simply amazing. i am honestly unsure whether you do not get it, whether you cannot get it, or whether you do not want to get it.

    we have gone over this thousands of times. if you find anything in Christianity that validates the violent actions committed by these countries, please bring it forth.

    you cannot correlate Christianity and its teachings to the wars committed by these countries. every single act of violence against other people they are committing is an anti-Christian act.

    the same cannot be said about islam where the violence is validated in the scriptures, in the quran, in the hadith, and in the life of the prophet himself..
    Then you shouldn't be saying Christianity is even more guilty for not bringing the love to our hearts! That is rude!

    If anything the Christian majority countries mastered nowadays in different ways to mass kill people!
    You want to claim that the Muslim world is the most heartless and hateful while the ones you talk highly of are busy bombarding people for profits!
    Where is the Love teachings in those countries before claiming our countries needs it the most?

    You can claim Christianity to be pacific all you want but reality is very different!
    I do respect Christianity though and I do differ between Christians and Christianity!



    i challenge you to find a single instance where i have insulted islam or muslims. it is what i said it is. you can neither handle nor process criticism, and this is how you always retaliate when faced with truth.
    You and other here have your ways by throwing everything bad and evil on Islam and Muslims claiming you are the better and the mannered ones!
    Accusing Muslims for evil invasions and wars etc while you don't look yourself in the mirror!

    Then you claim everything you say to be truth and not just your point of view!


    what he says is actually 100% wrong and is as far away from a scholarly article as can be. that was a biased and a subjective article that is uninformed and misleading. the fact that you still do no realize that despite being shown what the jewish law which predates islam and muhammad by 3000 years states about that subject is beyond odd.

    can you at least process the logic of that?
    I was talking about this quote in particular:

    Jonathan Brockopp of Pensylvania State Univerity:
    Other cultures limit a master’s right to harm a slave but few exhort masters to treat their slaves kindly, and the placement of slaves in the same category as other weak members of society who deserve protection is unknown outside the Quran. The unique contribution of the Quran, then, is to be found in its emphasis on the place of slaves in society and society’s responsibility toward the slave, perhaps the most progressive legislationon slavery in its time.

    Brockopp JE (2005) Slaves and Slavery, in The Encyclopedia of the Qur’ān, McAuliffe JD et al. ed., EJ Brill, Leiden, Vol. 5, p. 56–60.


    completely meaningless comeback my friend.
    The way Jesus lived, ate and worshipped etc is not meaningless for me!
    I believe if we want to be follower of Jesus then we should try to imitate him as much as we can.. let it be circumcision.. not eating pork.. the way he worshipped god etc!

    But I again I'm really trying not to debate this anymore.. You believe that you are freed from all this so...


    pfffffffffff... why do you subscribe to these notions that we are not willing to answer or that we cannot answer or that you have asked the one question that is detrimental to our cause and we had no choice but to ignore it?

    i have answered you very directly, and you were not able to understand it. i quoted you a passage from the old testament that states:
    "So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and did not wholly follow the Lord, as David his father had done."
    the very bible presents you an example stating that solomon, a prophet, did what was evil.

    we do not share your islamic perception of prophets. prophets are human beings who struggle and endure more than us to be close to God. being a prophet doesn't make everything a person does automatically right. prophets struggle more than others and endure more than others to stay close to God, some of them simply fail at times and go wrong. veracity and righteousness is the balance by which their actions are assessed, not the other way around.
    I'm not talking about the concept of Ismah here and there are very different opinions about this within Islam.. if you want to have basic understandings about this topic then read this short text Muslims & the Belief in ‘Ismah

    Obviously Muslims and Christians do not share the same understanding to what prophets are and we don't even agree on the same stories despite the lots of similarities in them but we are not talking about this now!
    We can at least both agree that prophets were good and pious people who were chosen by god!

    And I'm not only asking in particular about Solomon here.. I'm asking about all the Biblical prophets.
    Even King David had concubines.. and what about Abraham and Hagar etc..

    Many of these prophets had more than one wife and were dealing with slaves or concubines according to the OT itself!
    Many prophets held the sword and fought in wars and won wars as well!


    So how come when it comes to Prophet Muhammad you want to accuse him as being bad and evil for these same things that can be found within the prophets of the OT!?

    Why don't you accuse these prophets for the same thing you accuse prophet Muhammad with?

    Would you claim to have better values or to be a better person than Solomon? David? Abraham etc..?
    Because you are against slavery today?

    This is basically what started the whole debate here when Indie couldn't help herself and brought up my religion to the whole debate!
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    check how many mistakes you've made in this post.
    Then you shouldn't be saying Christianity is even more guilty for not bringing the love to our hearts! That is rude!
    that's not what i said. my exact words are:
    "Christianity is very guilty of not attempting to bring the message of Christ into the very heart of the islamic world, where it is needed the most. "
    If anything the Christian majority countries mastered nowadays in different ways to mass kill people!
    while the ones you talk highly of are busy bombarding people for profits!
    Where is the Love teachings in those countries before claiming our countries needs it the most?
    [/quote]
    both the united states and europe have become very anti-Christian. all countries including the islamic ones are ruled by a web of economic and political interests. there is no such thing as a Christian state, that by definition is also anti-Christian.

    You want to claim that the Muslim world is the most heartless and hateful
    that's neither what i have claimed nor what i want to claim. my point here was precise and simple. islam condones slavery with rules that are very similar to the jewish laws found in the OT.

    You can claim Christianity to be pacific all you want but reality is very different!
    I do respect Christianity though and I do differ between Christians and Christianity!
    you are contradicting yourself. it goes without saying you differentiate between Christianity and Christians, but it is also very obvious that your only argument against Christianity is the unChristian behavior of Christians. it is either that or the deep fishing into the OT.

    You and other here have your ways by throwing everything bad and evil on Islam and Muslims
    i have discussed specific issues i have with islam. you have yet to come with a single valid counter argument.

    claiming you are the better and the mannered ones!
    i have never made such a claim. i did however on occasions compare between Jesus and mohamed.

    Accusing Muslims for evil invasions and wars etc while you don't look yourself in the mirror!
    i have not accused muslims of evil invasions. i have accused islam of encouraging wars and violence in its ideology. you have yet to get a single thing correctly in a subject that requires much precision in expressing yourself and in understanding what the other is saying.

    but since you brought it up, John and Peter and Paul as well as all the disciples of Christ did not invade countries with swords, they spread the Gospel into the world and conquered it with truth. Christ told his students do not take by the sword. omar and othman etc..

    truth has no need for violence and weapons to establish itself.

    Then you claim everything you say to be truth and not just your point of view!
    where on earth did i make such a claim? when i am discussing facts they are facts. when i am expressing my opinion it is my opinion. i do not present my opinion as facts nor do i present facts as my opinion.

    I was talking about this quote in particular:

    Jonathan Brockopp of Pensylvania State Univerity:
    Other cultures limit a master’s right to harm a slave but few exhort masters to treat their slaves kindly, and the placement of slaves in the same category as other weak members of society who deserve protection is unknown outside the Quran. The unique contribution of the Quran, then, is to be found in its emphasis on the place of slaves in society and society’s responsibility toward the slave, perhaps the most progressive legislationon slavery in its time.

    Brockopp JE (2005) Slaves and Slavery, in The Encyclopedia of the Qur’ān, McAuliffe JD et al. ed., EJ Brill, Leiden, Vol. 5, p. 56–60.
    these are all bogus claims written either subjectively or ignorantly; and chances are it is a mix of both. i have the impression you are terrified of actually reading and understanding the quotes from the bible. the islamic laws about slavery are a mere copy of the deeper jewish ones, as i have already shown you. but let's look further at the new testament.

    Eph 6:8-9
    8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free.9 Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master[c] and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.


    Col 4:1
    4 Masters, treat your bondservants[a] justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.


    Gal 3:28
    There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    and in Paul's epistle to Philemon, the whole epistle is dedicated for the well being of this one slave:
    1. مِنْ بولُسَ سَجينِ المَسيحِ يَسوعَ ومِنْ أخينا تيموثاوُسَ إلى فِـيلِمونَ، عَزيزِنا ورَفيقِنا في العَمَلِ،
    2. وإلى الكَنيسَةِ التي تَجتَمعُ في بَيتِكَ، وإلى أُختِنا أبْفِـيَّةَ وإلى رَفيقِنا في الجِهادِ أرْخِبُّسَ.
    3. علَيكُمُ النِّعمَةُ والسَّلامُ مِنَ اللهِ أبـينا ومِنَ الرَّبِّ يَسوعَ المَسيحِ.
    4. كُلَّما ذَكَرتُكَ في صَلَواتي شَكَرتُ إلهي
    5. على ما بَلَغَني مِنْ إيمانِكَ ومِنْ مَحَبَّتِكَ لِلرَّبِّ يَسوعَ ولِجَميعِ الإخوَةِ القِدِّيسينَ،
    6. داعِيًا أنْ تكونَ مُشارَكتُكَ في الإيمانِ سَبـيلاً إلى إظهارِ كُلِّ ما نَقدِرُ علَيهِ مِنْ خَيرٍ لأجلِ المَسيحِ.
    7. وكَمْ كانَ سُروري وعَزائي عَظيمَينِ بمَحَبَّتِكَ أيُّها الأخُ، لأنَّكَ أنعَشتَ قُلوبَ الإخوَةِ القِدِّيسينَ.
    8. لذلِكَ، فمَعَ أنَّ لي كُلَّ الجُرأَةِ في المَسيحِ أن آمُرَكَ بِما يَجِبُ علَيكَ،
    9. فإنِّي آثَرْتُ أنْ أُناشِدَكَ با‏سمِ المَحبَّةِ، أنا بولُسَ الشَّيخَ الكَبـيرَ والسَّجينَ الآنَ مِنْ أجلِ المَسيحِ يَسوعَ،
    10. في أمرِ ا‏بني أونِسيمُسَ الذي ولَدتُهُ في الإيمانِ وأنا في السِّجنِ،
    11. وكانَ فيما مَضى غَيرَ نافِـعٍ لكَ، فصارَ اليومَ نافِعًا لكَ ولي.
    12. أرُدُّه إلَيكَ، أرُدُّ قَلبـي نَفسَهُ،
    13. وكُنتُ أُحِبُّ أنْ أُبقيَهُ هُنا مَعي ليخدِمَني بَدَلاً مِنكَ وأنا سَجينٌ مِنْ أجلِ البِشارَةِ،
    14. ولكنِّي لا أُريدُ أنْ أعمَلَ شيئًا مِنْ دُونِ رِضاكَ ليَكونَ هذا الإحسانُ مِنكَ طَوعًا لا قَسرًا.
    15. ولعَلَّ أونِسيمُسَ ا‏بتَعَدَ عَنكَ بَعضَ الوَقتِ ليَعودَ إلَيكَ للأبَدِ،
    16.
    لا ليَكونَ عَبدًا بَعدَ اليومِ، بَلْ أفضَلَ مِنْ عَبدٍ، أي أخًا حبـيبًا في المَسيحِ. وهوَ أخٌ حَبـيبّ إليَّ، فكَم بالأحرى إلَيكَ أنتَ، سَواءٌ كعَبدٍ في الجَسَدِ أو كأخٍ في الرَّبِّ.
    17. فإنْ كُنتَ تَحسَبُني شَريكًا لَكَ في الإيمانِ، فا‏قبَلْهُ كما تَقبَلُني.
    18. وإنْ كانَ أساءَ إلَيكَ في شيءٍ وكانَ لكَ علَيهِ دَينٌ، فا‏حسُبْهُ علَيَّ.
    19. وأنا بولُسَ أُوفي، وهذا أكتُبُهُ بِخَطِّ يَدي، ولا أقولُ لكَ أنتَ مَدينٌ لي بِنَفسِكَ كُلِّها.
    20. نعم، يا أخي، أحسِنْ إليَّ في الرَّبِّ وأنعِشْ قلبـي في المَسيحِ.
    21. ولي ثِقَةٌ، وأنا أكتُبُ إلَيكَ، بأنَّكَ ستُلَبِّــي طَلَبـي، بَلْ أنا على يَقين أنَّكَ ستَعمَلُ أكثَرَ مِمّا أطلُبُ مِنكَ.
    22. وما عدا ذلِكَ فا‏حجُزْ لي مكانًا لإقامَتي، لأنِّي أرجو أنْ يَستَجيبَ اللهُ لصَلَواتِكُم فيَرُدَّني إلَيكُم.
    23. يُسَلِّمُ علَيكَ أبَفْراسُ السَّجينُ مَعي في سبـيلِ المَسيحِ يَسوعَ،
    24. ومَرقُسُ وأرِسْتَرخُسُ ودِيماسُ ولوقا رِفاقي في العَمَلِ.
    25. لِتَكُنْ نِعمَةُ الرَّبِّ يَسوعَ المَسيحِ معَ رُوحِكُم.



    The way Jesus lived, ate and worshipped etc is not meaningless for me!
    you do not know anything about how Jesus lived. the quran does not tell you much about that. so what is your source about Jesus?

    I believe if we want to be follower of Jesus then we should try to imitate him as much as we can.. let it be circumcision.. not eating pork.. the way he worshipped god etc!
    how on earth people understand faith this way is completely beyond me, but yet this is what islam teaches. you imitate Him in the most superficial of ways without knowing much about Him. you eat what He ate, dress how He dressed, etc.. that is precisely what Jesus does not want. this is precisely like focusing on the finger of the person who is pointing the moon. and what exactly are you basing this imitation upon?

    But I again I'm really trying not to debate this anymore.. You believe that you are freed from all this so...
    "it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.

    And I'm not only asking in particular about Solomon here.. I'm asking about all the Biblical prophets.
    Even King David had concubines.. and what about Abraham and Hagar etc..
    the examples you give are quite interesting. trouble is that the learning curve is too steep... but nevertheless..
    David spent more than half his life trying to repent for his sins, and Abraham did not await the promise of the Lord.
    what do you think of this?
    21. قولوا لي، أنتُمُ الذينَ يُريدونَ أنْ يكونوا في حُكمِ الشَّريعَةِ أما تَسمَعونَ الشَّريعَةَ
    22. يقولُ الكِتابُ كانَ لإبراهيمَ ا‏بنانِ، أحَدُهُما مِنَ الجارِيَةِ والآخرُ مِنَ الحُرَّةِ.
    23. أمَّا الذي مِنَ الجارِيَةِ فوُلِدَ حسَبَ الجسَدِ، وأمَّا الذي مِنَ الحُرَّةِ فوُلِدَ بِفَضلِ وَعدِ اللهِ.
    24. وفي ذلِكَ رَمزٌ، لأنَّ هاتَينِ المَرأتَينِ تُمَثِّلانِ العَهدَينِ. فإحداهُما هاجَرُ مِنْ جبَلِ سيناءَ تلِدُ لِلعُبودِيَّةِ،
    25. وجبَلُ سيناءَ في بِلادِ العَرَبِ، وهاجَرُ تَعني أُورُشليمَ الحاضِرةَ التي هِيَ وبَنوها في العُبودِيَّةِ.
    26. أمَّا أُورُشليمُ السَّماوِيَّةُ فَحُرَّةٌ وهِـيَ أُمُّنا،
    27. فالكِتابُ يَقولُ إفرَحي أيَّتُها العاقِرُ التي لا وَلَدَ لَها. إهتِفي وتَهَلَّلي أيَّتُها التي ما عَرَفَت آلامَ الوِلادَةِ فأبناءُ المَهجورَةِ أكثرُ عَدَدًا مِنْ أبناءِ التي لها زَوجٌ.
    28. فأنتُم، يا إخوَتي، أبناءُ الوَعدِ مِثلُ إسحقَ.
    29. وكما كانَ المَولودُ بِحُكمِ الجسَدِ يَضطَهِدُ المَولودَ بِحُكُمِ الرُّوحِ، فكذلِكَ هيَ الحالُ اليومَ.
    30. ولكِنْ ماذا يَقولُ الكِتابُ يَقولُ ا‏طرُدِ الجارِيَةَ وا‏بنَها، لأنَّ ا‏بنَ الجارِيَةِ لنْ يَرِثَ معَ ا‏بنِ الحُرَّةِ.
    31. فما نَحنُ إذًا، يا إخوَتي، أبناءُ الجارِيَةِ، بَلْ أبناءُ الحُرَّةِ.

    Many of these prophets had more than one wife and were dealing with slaves or concubines according to the OT itself!
    Many prophets held the sword and fought in wars and won wars as well!


    So how come when it comes to Prophet Muhammad you want to accuse him as being bad and evil for these same things that can be found within the prophets of the OT!?

    Why don't you accuse these prophets for the same thing you accuse prophet Muhammad with?
    everything in the OT was put under the scope through Christ. as far as the ancient prophets of the OT are concerned:
    23.وا‏لتَفَتَ إلى تلاميذِهِ، فقالَ لهُم على ا‏نفِرادٍ هَنيئًا لِمَن يَرى ما أنتُم تَرَونَ
    24.أقولُ لكُم كثيرٌ مِنَ الأنبـياءِ والمُلوكِ تَمَنَّوا أنْ يَرَوا ما أنتُم تَرَونَ فما رَأوا، وأنْ يَسمَعوا ما أنتُم تَسمَعونَ فما سَمِعوا.


    the purpose of God was revealed, and the definitive revelation was made. the "eye for an eye" was replaced with Love and Mercy, etc. The only purpose of prophet muhammad was to reverse that in every possible way. so purpose of God was twisted, and the "eye for an eye" was reestablished.

    as to prophet muhammad we do not think he was a prophet at all. we simply use the title out of respect for your beliefs. we have a stern warning about false prophets.

    15. "اِحتَرِزوا مِنَ الأنبياءِ الكَذَبَةِ الَّذينَ يأتونَكُمْ بثيابِ الحُملانِ، ولكِنَّهُمْ مِنْ داخِلٍ ذِئابٌ خاطِفَةٌ!
    16. مِنْ ثِمارِهِمْ تعرِفونَهُمْ. هل يَجتَنونَ مِنَ الشَّوكِ عِنَبًا، أو مِنَ الحَسَكِ تينًا؟


    10. وحينَئذٍ يَعثُرُ كثيرونَ ويُسَلّمونَ بَعضُهُمْ بَعضًا ويُبغِضونَ بَعضُهُمْ بَعضًا.
    11. ويَقومُ أنبياءُ كذَبَةٌ كثيرونَ ويُضِلّونَ كثيرينَ.
    12. ولِكَثرَةِ الإثمِ تبرُدُ مَحَبَّةُ الكَثيرينَ.


    so let me ask you this, how can you tell if a prophet is true not?

    Would you claim to have better values or to be a better person than Solomon? David? Abraham etc..?
    Because you are against slavery today?
    in so far that i have not killed a man to have my way with his wife? yes, that is an easy one. almost all the people on this planet are better than David in this regard.

    but your phrasing is still far off from the statement i made which indicates you still do not get the full scope of my statement. mine was much stronger. i told you that humanity today has better values, better ethics, and better standards than allah as represented in the quran. how do you deal with that?

    This is basically what started the whole debate here when Indie couldn't help herself and brought up my religion to the whole debate!
    and then you provided all the wrong answers? :)[/quote][/quote]
     
    HannaTheCrusader

    HannaTheCrusader

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    check how many mistakes you've made in this post.

    that's not what i said. my exact words are:
    "Christianity is very guilty of not attempting to bring the message of Christ into the very heart of the islamic world, where it is needed the most. "

    Where is the Love teachings in those countries before claiming our countries needs it the most?
    both the united states and europe have become very anti-Christian. all countries including the islamic ones are ruled by a web of economic and political interests. there is no such thing as a Christian state, that by definition is also anti-Christian.


    that's neither what i have claimed nor what i want to claim. my point here was precise and simple. islam condones slavery with rules that are very similar to the jewish laws found in the OT.


    you are contradicting yourself. it goes without saying you differentiate between Christianity and Christians, but it is also very obvious that your only argument against Christianity is the unChristian behavior of Christians. it is either that or the deep fishing into the OT.


    i have discussed specific issues i have with islam. you have yet to come with a single valid counter argument.


    i have never made such a claim. i did however on occasions compare between Jesus and mohamed.


    i have not accused muslims of evil invasions. i have accused islam of encouraging wars and violence in its ideology. you have yet to get a single thing correctly in a subject that requires much precision in expressing yourself and in understanding what the other is saying.

    but since you brought it up, John and Peter and Paul as well as all the disciples of Christ did not invade countries with swords, they spread the Gospel into the world and conquered it with truth. Christ told his students do not take by the sword. omar and othman etc..

    truth has no need for violence and weapons to establish itself.


    where on earth did i make such a claim? when i am discussing facts they are facts. when i am expressing my opinion it is my opinion. i do not present my opinion as facts nor do i present facts as my opinion.



    these are all bogus claims written either subjectively or ignorantly; and chances are it is a mix of both. i have the impression you are terrified of actually reading and understanding the quotes from the bible. the islamic laws about slavery are a mere copy of the deeper jewish ones, as i have already shown you. but let's look further at the new testament.

    Eph 6:8-9
    8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free.9 Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master[c] and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.


    Col 4:1
    4 Masters, treat your bondservants[a] justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.


    Gal 3:28
    There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    and in Paul's epistle to Philemon, the whole epistle is dedicated for the well being of this one slave:
    1. مِنْ بولُسَ سَجينِ المَسيحِ يَسوعَ ومِنْ أخينا تيموثاوُسَ إلى فِـيلِمونَ، عَزيزِنا ورَفيقِنا في العَمَلِ،
    2. وإلى الكَنيسَةِ التي تَجتَمعُ في بَيتِكَ، وإلى أُختِنا أبْفِـيَّةَ وإلى رَفيقِنا في الجِهادِ أرْخِبُّسَ.
    3. علَيكُمُ النِّعمَةُ والسَّلامُ مِنَ اللهِ أبـينا ومِنَ الرَّبِّ يَسوعَ المَسيحِ.
    4. كُلَّما ذَكَرتُكَ في صَلَواتي شَكَرتُ إلهي
    5. على ما بَلَغَني مِنْ إيمانِكَ ومِنْ مَحَبَّتِكَ لِلرَّبِّ يَسوعَ ولِجَميعِ الإخوَةِ القِدِّيسينَ،
    6. داعِيًا أنْ تكونَ مُشارَكتُكَ في الإيمانِ سَبـيلاً إلى إظهارِ كُلِّ ما نَقدِرُ علَيهِ مِنْ خَيرٍ لأجلِ المَسيحِ.
    7. وكَمْ كانَ سُروري وعَزائي عَظيمَينِ بمَحَبَّتِكَ أيُّها الأخُ، لأنَّكَ أنعَشتَ قُلوبَ الإخوَةِ القِدِّيسينَ.
    8. لذلِكَ، فمَعَ أنَّ لي كُلَّ الجُرأَةِ في المَسيحِ أن آمُرَكَ بِما يَجِبُ علَيكَ،
    9. فإنِّي آثَرْتُ أنْ أُناشِدَكَ با‏سمِ المَحبَّةِ، أنا بولُسَ الشَّيخَ الكَبـيرَ والسَّجينَ الآنَ مِنْ أجلِ المَسيحِ يَسوعَ،
    10. في أمرِ ا‏بني أونِسيمُسَ الذي ولَدتُهُ في الإيمانِ وأنا في السِّجنِ،
    11. وكانَ فيما مَضى غَيرَ نافِـعٍ لكَ، فصارَ اليومَ نافِعًا لكَ ولي.
    12. أرُدُّه إلَيكَ، أرُدُّ قَلبـي نَفسَهُ،
    13. وكُنتُ أُحِبُّ أنْ أُبقيَهُ هُنا مَعي ليخدِمَني بَدَلاً مِنكَ وأنا سَجينٌ مِنْ أجلِ البِشارَةِ،
    14. ولكنِّي لا أُريدُ أنْ أعمَلَ شيئًا مِنْ دُونِ رِضاكَ ليَكونَ هذا الإحسانُ مِنكَ طَوعًا لا قَسرًا.
    15. ولعَلَّ أونِسيمُسَ ا‏بتَعَدَ عَنكَ بَعضَ الوَقتِ ليَعودَ إلَيكَ للأبَدِ،
    16.
    لا ليَكونَ عَبدًا بَعدَ اليومِ، بَلْ أفضَلَ مِنْ عَبدٍ، أي أخًا حبـيبًا في المَسيحِ. وهوَ أخٌ حَبـيبّ إليَّ، فكَم بالأحرى إلَيكَ أنتَ، سَواءٌ كعَبدٍ في الجَسَدِ أو كأخٍ في الرَّبِّ.
    17. فإنْ كُنتَ تَحسَبُني شَريكًا لَكَ في الإيمانِ، فا‏قبَلْهُ كما تَقبَلُني.
    18. وإنْ كانَ أساءَ إلَيكَ في شيءٍ وكانَ لكَ علَيهِ دَينٌ، فا‏حسُبْهُ علَيَّ.
    19. وأنا بولُسَ أُوفي، وهذا أكتُبُهُ بِخَطِّ يَدي، ولا أقولُ لكَ أنتَ مَدينٌ لي بِنَفسِكَ كُلِّها.
    20. نعم، يا أخي، أحسِنْ إليَّ في الرَّبِّ وأنعِشْ قلبـي في المَسيحِ.
    21. ولي ثِقَةٌ، وأنا أكتُبُ إلَيكَ، بأنَّكَ ستُلَبِّــي طَلَبـي، بَلْ أنا على يَقين أنَّكَ ستَعمَلُ أكثَرَ مِمّا أطلُبُ مِنكَ.
    22. وما عدا ذلِكَ فا‏حجُزْ لي مكانًا لإقامَتي، لأنِّي أرجو أنْ يَستَجيبَ اللهُ لصَلَواتِكُم فيَرُدَّني إلَيكُم.
    23. يُسَلِّمُ علَيكَ أبَفْراسُ السَّجينُ مَعي في سبـيلِ المَسيحِ يَسوعَ،
    24. ومَرقُسُ وأرِسْتَرخُسُ ودِيماسُ ولوقا رِفاقي في العَمَلِ.
    25. لِتَكُنْ نِعمَةُ الرَّبِّ يَسوعَ المَسيحِ معَ رُوحِكُم.




    you do not know anything about how Jesus lived. the quran does not tell you much about that. so what is your source about Jesus?


    how on earth people understand faith this way is completely beyond me, but yet this is what islam teaches. you imitate Him in the most superficial of ways without knowing much about Him. you eat what He ate, dress how He dressed, etc.. that is precisely what Jesus does not want. this is precisely like focusing on the finger of the person who is pointing the moon. and what exactly are you basing this imitation upon?


    "it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.


    the examples you give are quite interesting. trouble is that the learning curve is too steep... but nevertheless..
    David spent more than half his life trying to repent for his sins, and Abraham did not await the promise of the Lord.
    what do you think of this?
    21. قولوا لي، أنتُمُ الذينَ يُريدونَ أنْ يكونوا في حُكمِ الشَّريعَةِ أما تَسمَعونَ الشَّريعَةَ
    22. يقولُ الكِتابُ كانَ لإبراهيمَ ا‏بنانِ، أحَدُهُما مِنَ الجارِيَةِ والآخرُ مِنَ الحُرَّةِ.
    23. أمَّا الذي مِنَ الجارِيَةِ فوُلِدَ حسَبَ الجسَدِ، وأمَّا الذي مِنَ الحُرَّةِ فوُلِدَ بِفَضلِ وَعدِ اللهِ.
    24. وفي ذلِكَ رَمزٌ، لأنَّ هاتَينِ المَرأتَينِ تُمَثِّلانِ العَهدَينِ. فإحداهُما هاجَرُ مِنْ جبَلِ سيناءَ تلِدُ لِلعُبودِيَّةِ،
    25. وجبَلُ سيناءَ في بِلادِ العَرَبِ، وهاجَرُ تَعني أُورُشليمَ الحاضِرةَ التي هِيَ وبَنوها في العُبودِيَّةِ.
    26. أمَّا أُورُشليمُ السَّماوِيَّةُ فَحُرَّةٌ وهِـيَ أُمُّنا،
    27. فالكِتابُ يَقولُ إفرَحي أيَّتُها العاقِرُ التي لا وَلَدَ لَها. إهتِفي وتَهَلَّلي أيَّتُها التي ما عَرَفَت آلامَ الوِلادَةِ فأبناءُ المَهجورَةِ أكثرُ عَدَدًا مِنْ أبناءِ التي لها زَوجٌ.
    28. فأنتُم، يا إخوَتي، أبناءُ الوَعدِ مِثلُ إسحقَ.
    29. وكما كانَ المَولودُ بِحُكمِ الجسَدِ يَضطَهِدُ المَولودَ بِحُكُمِ الرُّوحِ، فكذلِكَ هيَ الحالُ اليومَ.
    30. ولكِنْ ماذا يَقولُ الكِتابُ يَقولُ ا‏طرُدِ الجارِيَةَ وا‏بنَها، لأنَّ ا‏بنَ الجارِيَةِ لنْ يَرِثَ معَ ا‏بنِ الحُرَّةِ.
    31. فما نَحنُ إذًا، يا إخوَتي، أبناءُ الجارِيَةِ، بَلْ أبناءُ الحُرَّةِ.



    everything in the OT was put under the scope through Christ. as far as the ancient prophets of the OT are concerned:
    23.وا‏لتَفَتَ إلى تلاميذِهِ، فقالَ لهُم على ا‏نفِرادٍ هَنيئًا لِمَن يَرى ما أنتُم تَرَونَ
    24.أقولُ لكُم كثيرٌ مِنَ الأنبـياءِ والمُلوكِ تَمَنَّوا أنْ يَرَوا ما أنتُم تَرَونَ فما رَأوا، وأنْ يَسمَعوا ما أنتُم تَسمَعونَ فما سَمِعوا.


    the purpose of God was revealed, and the definitive revelation was made. the "eye for an eye" was replaced with Love and Mercy, etc. The only purpose of prophet muhammad was to reverse that in every possible way. so purpose of God was twisted, and the "eye for an eye" was reestablished.

    as to prophet muhammad we do not think he was a prophet at all. we simply use the title out of respect for your beliefs. we have a stern warning about false prophets.

    15. "اِحتَرِزوا مِنَ الأنبياءِ الكَذَبَةِ الَّذينَ يأتونَكُمْ بثيابِ الحُملانِ، ولكِنَّهُمْ مِنْ داخِلٍ ذِئابٌ خاطِفَةٌ!
    16. مِنْ ثِمارِهِمْ تعرِفونَهُمْ. هل يَجتَنونَ مِنَ الشَّوكِ عِنَبًا، أو مِنَ الحَسَكِ تينًا؟


    10. وحينَئذٍ يَعثُرُ كثيرونَ ويُسَلّمونَ بَعضُهُمْ بَعضًا ويُبغِضونَ بَعضُهُمْ بَعضًا.
    11. ويَقومُ أنبياءُ كذَبَةٌ كثيرونَ ويُضِلّونَ كثيرينَ.
    12. ولِكَثرَةِ الإثمِ تبرُدُ مَحَبَّةُ الكَثيرينَ.


    so let me ask you this, how can you tell if a prophet is true not?


    in so far that i have not killed a man to have my way with his wife? yes, that is an easy one. almost all the people on this planet are better than David in this regard.

    but your phrasing is still far off from the statement i made which indicates you still do not get the full scope of my statement. mine was much stronger. i told you that humanity today has better values, better ethics, and better standards than allah as represented in the quran. how do you deal with that?


    and then you provided all the wrong answers? :)[/quote][/quote][/QUOTE]


    its pity you wasted such great reply on a muslim salafi
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    yes, that is an easy one. almost all the people on this planet are better than David in this regard.

    OK there is no need for all the rest of your comment.. this little comment of yours says it all for me!
    Despite that.. I'm asking you specifics but you run to other things and avoid my question by start talking about him killing and whatever and opening new topics.. something I honestly wont be bothering debating like I said earlier!

    You believe the biblical prophets are to be evil well at least some of them in a way or another and most people are today better than them you say!!!

    You seems to have avoided Abraham though.. was he evil as well? He had at least two concubines according to your OT.



    but your phrasing is still far off from the statement i made which indicates you still do not get the full scope of my statement. mine was much stronger. i told you that humanity today has better values, better ethics, and better standards than allah as represented in the quran. how do you deal with that?
    Yes of course everything you say is much more powerful and much stronger!

    I don't believe that humanity today has better values.. actually I strongly believe that humanity transcended in its wickedness and we are way closer to hell for every each day that goes!

    You, I and all of humanity are being deceived in a way or another! And only Jesus will completely destroy the wickedness with Allah's will as we were all promised!
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    OK there is no need for all the rest of your comment.. this little comment of yours says it all for me!
    Despite that.. I'm asking you specifics but you run to other things and avoid my question by start talking about him killing and whatever and opening new topics.. something I honestly wont be bothering debating like I said earlier!

    You believe the biblical prophets are to be evil well at least some of them in a way or another and most people are today better than them you say!!!

    You seems to have avoided Abraham though.. was he evil as well? He had at least two concubines according to your OT.
    i did not avoid abraham. i have explained to you how he went wrong. but it is like explaining colors to the blind. because the very role, purpose, and definition of religion is quite different between the Christian scope and the islamic one. the problem of abraham touches upon a subject to which you are oblivious, and has to do with the children of the promise and the divine perspective versus the children of the flesh and human perspective. abraham was impatient and doubted the Lord's promise and had a child with his wife's maid, and in that abraham's heart was not fully with the Lord. does that make him evil? i do not think so. but it simply illustrates the frailty of faith and that of human nature.

    the difference my dear is that when a prophet errs, the bible and community directly call the prophet upon his error, mistake, sin, whatever you want to call it. just as i have illustrated with that one example about solomon, "Solomon did what was evil in the eyes of the Lord." we in turn can absorb the morality from his actions, both when he does good and when he does evil, there are lessons for us in both of them. but we do not seek to imitate him blindly in his good as well as in his evil. this is not what faith is about.

    to us however, our faith is in Christ who committed no evil, He had no sin. while we observe the other prophets and learn the lessons from their good actions as well from their weaknesses and sins, our role model is Christ, free from sin and free from evil, a fact recognized even in the quran and the islamic scripture. and yet somehow islam's role model is not Christ, free of sin, but rather the prophet. and in that a contradiction is created that cannot be theologically amended. this is partially why the concept of sin is not very well developed in islam, as the point of reference, for assessing and determining right from wrong is no longer in your heart and mind, but rather in the rules and scriptures that have been handed down to you, and your perspective is no longer about right versus wrong, good versus evil, but rather about what the scriptures ordains or not. this is why you do not question the passages about mulk el yameen, multiple wives, jezya, kuffar issues, etc.. because you have surrendered and given up on exercising your internal faculty that differentiates between good and evil, right and wrong.

    and consequently here you are more about imitating the form than the content.

    Yes of course everything you say is much more powerful and much stronger!

    I don't believe that humanity today has better values.. actually I strongly believe that humanity transcended in its wickedness and we are way closer to hell for every each day that goes!

    You, I and all of humanity are being deceived in a way or another! And only Jesus will completely destroy the wickedness with Allah's will as we were all promised!
    it suffices that one single individual possesses better qualities than allah to validate my point. i wasn't talking about humanity as the collective whole of states and corporate interests. also you are not using the word transcended correctly :p
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    OK there is no need for all the rest of your comment.. this little comment of yours says it all for me!
    Despite that.. I'm asking you specifics but you run to other things and avoid my question by start talking about him killing and whatever and opening new topics.. something I honestly wont be bothering debating like I said earlier!

    You believe the biblical prophets are to be evil well at least some of them in a way or another and most people are today better than them you say!!!

    You seems to have avoided Abraham though.. was he evil as well? He had at least two concubines according to your OT.





    Yes of course everything you say is much more powerful and much stronger!

    I don't believe that humanity today has better values.. actually I strongly believe that humanity transcended in its wickedness and we are way closer to hell for every each day that goes!

    You, I and all of humanity are being deceived in a way or another! And only Jesus will completely destroy the wickedness with Allah's will as we were all promised!
    Deep into Islam..
     
    Isabella

    Isabella

    The queen of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    The arab world keeps giving !

    Killing prompts return of Philippines workers from Kuwait - CNN

    TL;dr philipines banning workers from travelling to kuwait after several murders
    They should also ban them from Dubai and Emirates as a whole! They treat asian foreigners like shit there! Literally slave wages, working conditions are abhorrent and a shuttle takes them to and from whatever construction site they are currently working on, these trips are their only breaks... Dubai was entirely constructed using slave labour!
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    They should also ban them from Dubai and Emirates as a whole! They treat asian foreigners like shit there! Literally slave wages, working conditions are abhorrent and a shuttle takes them to and from whatever construction site they are currently working on, these trips are their only breaks... Dubai was entirely constructed using slave labour!
    The metro of paris too was entirely constructed using algerians as slaves!
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    The metro of paris too was entirely constructed using algerians as slaves!
    "a slave - a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them"

    "as slaves"? - Can you prove it?
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    "a slave - a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them"

    "as slaves"? - Can you prove it?
    No I can't

    but the way french people treated Algerians back in that time was even worse than being a slave

    they even made them fight their wars
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    No I can't

    but the way french people treated Algerians back in that time was even worse than being a slave

    they even made them fight their wars
    "No I can't [prove your own claims]" and yet then you claim again "treated ... worse than being a slave" - do you even understand yourself.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    This is not slavery. This is playful banter.
    It's obvious the maid is well treated because she was laughing as she headed to the other room to call "madame". Mbayneh awiyyeh w mfa7leh.
     
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