Sumerian parallel of Ashura among Post-Iraqis?

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ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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Disclaimer: I'm not saying that Twelver Shiahism is Sumerian Paganism or extended it from it in the classical sense. I personally believe every modern religion goes back to old pagan traditions (mostly unknowingly), since knowledge in my world view is remembering older ideas (Platonism).

But anyway, I came about this striking parallel and thought some of you might be interested. It's around the story of the God Tammuz (Dumuzid) in Babylonian mythology. A lot of similarities in how he dies and how Imam Hussien dies. And how he is grieved for in funeral processions on a yearly basis by Iraqis. And what it symbolized for his worshipers. We also find the same grief for Zeinab but towards the Goddess Inanna.



يعتبر موت وقيامة الاله تموز (دموزي ) احد الطقوس التراجيدية المهمة بسماته الاسطورية والطقوسية والفلسفية ، فهو الخزين التراجيدي في روح الإنسان القديم في وادي الرافدين . ولحجم الاضطهاد والعذاب الذي تعرض له الإله ( دموزي ـ تموز ) و علاقة حبيبته الآلهة إنانا – عشتار ودورها الملتبس بهذا الموت المأساوي أدى الى أن تمتلئ المثيولوجيا والآداب السومرية والبابلية بمناحات واساطير وملاحم وطقوس تعزية خاصة بمآسي آلهة الخصب الشهيرة هذه وغيابها عن الحياة ، ومن ثم قيامتها من جديد ، و يعتبر كل هذا حتى الان من أرقى وأغنى ما كتب في مثيولوجيا شعوب وادي الرافدين .

...


وفي الختام يمسكون به وهو مختبئ في حظيرته في الصحراء . يعذبونه من اجل ان يرسلوه الى عالم الموت الابدي . وبهذا يتحقق كابوسه . لكن اخته تقوم بالتضحية الكبرى عندما تعرض على شياطينه ان تحل محله في عالم اللاعودة كبديل عنه
. وعقابا لدموزي الذي حاول الهرب من قدر العقاب يتم الحكم عليه بان يقيم نصف سنة في عالم الاموات وتأخذ أخته مكانه في النصف الثاني . وعند موت دموزي يعم الجفاف في الكون . عندها يمتلأ قلب الالهة إنانا ـ عشتار حزنا على حبيبها فتصاب بالندم على كونها هي السبب لهذا الجفاف والخراب الذي عم مدينتها ، بتسليمها اله الخصب الى الموت . فيبدأ شعب وادي الرافدين بممارسة طقوس الحزن مع آلهته إنانا ، وطقس الندم الجمعي على الاله دموزي ـ تموز حتى تتم قيامته من جديد ، عندها يبدأ الخصب في الربيع والصيف بعد الموت والجفاف وهكذا تبدأ دورة الحياة .



And so there was (1) intense funeral processions of grief done on a yearly basis, (2) stories of defeat and sacrifice for both heroes Tammuz and Innana, (3) happened in modern-day Iraq day where Ashura is perhaps the most popular. But there's, of course, a lot of differences, as a tragic love story is involved, and it included references to hell within a Sumerian context and Tammuz being backstabbed by his close allies.

So I'll leave it to you.
 
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  • ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    And (4) also Tamooz's sister (like Zeinab) fights for him and is punished as a result.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

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    Mohamed basically copied Judaism and Christianity and modified them to suit his [] and expantionist agenda.

    [].
     
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    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    We also see a striking pattern between the interaction of Tammuz with his sister and Hussein with his sister before their deaths:

    "الاله المنفي تموز مطاردا ، بدون سقف يحميه او زاوية يركن اليها ، مامن دكة يتكأ عليها ، مامن باب يصدر عنه الريح ما من مكان يحتمي فيه . منفي ، مطارد وحيد هو ، لا يملك سوى جذوة روحه ، هو ومصيره هذا الاله المنفي سيد البلاد المعذب. ويضل هائما حتى يصل الى بيت اخته ، وعندما تراه تصدر نواح مر ، نواح لا مثيل له لانها كعرافة ترى نهايته المستقبلية الاليمة .( جشتي نانا حدقت في اخيها ،/ خدشت وجنتيها ، مزقت فمها /…… شقت ثيابها /صدر عنها نواح مر على السيد المعذب / اواه يااخي ، أواه ،أيها الفتى الذي لم تكن ايامه طويلة /أواه يااخي الفتى الذي لازوج له ولا ولد /أواه يااخي الفتى الذي لاصديق له ولارفيق / أواه يااخي الفتى الذي لا يجلب العزاء لأمه /)"
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    No actual pagan religion or mystery cult (that ever existed) worshiped the stone or the statue and not what it resembled in the spiritual world. Islam and Christianity's attack on Pagans / Polytheists as statue worshipers is hypocrisy and misunderstanding at best. And an excuse to destroy their heritage (as in the case of Mohammad).

    Yahweh is a tribal God of the people of Israel. And one of the fictional Kaanite Gods. Nothing special. Judaism, is in its teachings and mythology, is rendered inferior to other religions that are much older and profound in almost every aspect.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    "The cult of Adonis has also been described as corresponding to the cult of the Phoenician god Baal.[5] As Walter Burkert explains:

    Women sit by the gate weeping for Tammuz, or they offer incense to Baal on roof-tops and plant pleasant plants. These are the very features of the Adonis legend: which is celebrated on flat roof-tops on which sherds sown with quickly germinating green salading are placed, Adonis gardens... the climax is loud lamentation for the dead god.[14]
    "
     
    True Palestinian

    True Palestinian

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    Mohamed basically copied Judaism and Christianity and modified them to suit his perverted and expantionist agenda.

    May he be burning in boiling zamzam water.
    Mo pillaged Judaism on the surface. But if you pay close attention to Islamic rites and the way they articulate themselves as well as the way they are practiced, Islam is just good old Arabian polytheism wrapped in a monotheistic veil in the end. I mean, the 7ajj and 3umra are basically pagan pilgrimages, Tawaf for example is purely pagan. Same thing for el 7ajar el 2swad, which is tied to the worship of stones and meteorites associated with specific deities in pre-Islamic Arabian religion (which had animistic properties). Even the vocabulary of Islam is pagan, for example the name "Al Ra7man" attributed to Allah comes from the South Arabian (and more specifically Himyarite) god Rahmanan.

    Eastern Arabia was in contact with Mesopotamia since the Pottery Neolithic at the very least (and probably before that), the Ubaid culture extended all the way to Bahrain (Dilmun) and Oman. With the Hafit period, several of the Mesopotamian rites were probably incorporated as pre-Islamic Arabian religion was very syncretic. Several of the South Arabian deities had Mesopotamian equivalents, 3athtar is one such deity. So whatever parellels there are between Shi'a Islam and Sumerian practice, these are probably due to Arabian polytheism's numerous influences.
     
    True Palestinian

    True Palestinian

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    Yahweh is a tribal God of the people of Israel. And one of the fictional Kaanite Gods. Nothing special. Judaism, is in its teachings and mythology, is rendered inferior to other religions that are much older and profound in almost every aspect.
    Actually, Yahweh was not the original god of the Israelites. This is even visibile in their name which contains "El", the patriarchal head of the Canaanite pantheon: יִשְׂרָאֵלYiśrāˀēl and not Yiśrāyahu

    Yahweh OTOH is largely understood to have come from the south, and indeed this deity makes its first appearance amongst the Shasu of Yhw. The Shasu were the nomadic element of Bronze Age Canaanite society, living on the fringes of the Canaanite world. And in accordance with this setting, Yahweh is a desert deity, a god of sandstorms and storms, and most importantly a "divine warrior" who grants victory to those who worship him. While the Proto-Israelites primarily derived from the local Canaanites who fled the major cities of Canaan and sought refuge in the highlands, they are also thought to have incorporated the remnants of the Shasu during the Late Bronze Age Collapse, with time the cult of Yahweh became henotheistic, then monolatric by absorbing all the other Canaanite deities, before finally becoming monotheistic. Many good books have been written on this, it's a fascinating topic.
     
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    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Mo pillaged Judaism on the surface. But if you pay close attention to Islamic rites and the way they articulate themselves as well as the way they are practiced, Islam is just good old Arabian polytheism wrapped in a monotheistic veil in the end. I mean, the 7ajj and 3umra are basically pagan pilgrimages, Tawaf for example is purely pagan. Same thing for el 7ajar el 2swad, which is tied to the worship of stones and meteorites associated with specific deities in pre-Islamic Arabian religion (which had animistic properties). Even the vocabulary of Islam is pagan, for example the name "Al Ra7man" attributed to Allah comes from the South Arabian (and more specifically Himyarite) god Rahmanan.

    Eastern Arabia was in contact with Mesopotamia since the Pottery Neolithic at the very least (and probably before that), the Ubaid culture extended all the way to Bahrain (Dilmun) and Oman. With the Hafit period, several of the Mesopotamian rites were probably incorporated as pre-Islamic Arabian religion was very syncretic. Several of the South Arabian deities had Mesopotamian equivalents, 3athtar is one such deity. So whatever parellels there are between Shi'a Islam and Sumerian practice, these are probably due to Arabian polytheism's numerous influences.
    I'll add to that, Islamic prayer schedules are exact copies of Zoroastrian prayers. And so is the "calls for prayer".

    Dawn / Fajr / Havaan

    Noon / Zuhar / Rapithwan

    Afternoon / Asr / Uziren

    Evening / Maghrib / Aiwisuthrem

    Night / Isha / Ushaen
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Actually, Yahweh was not the original god of the Israelites. This is even visibile in their name which contains "El", the patriarchal head of the Canaanite pantheon: יִשְׂרָאֵלYiśrāˀēl and not Yiśrāyahu

    Yahweh OTOH is largely understood to have come from the south, and indeed this deity makes its first appearance amongst the Shasu of Yhw. The Shasu were the nomadic element of Canaanite society, living on the fringes of the Canaanite world. And in accordance with this setting, Yahweh is a desert deity, a god of sandstorms and storm, and most importantly a "divine warrior" who grants victory to those who worship him. While the Proto-Israelites primarily derived from the local Canaanites who fled the major cities of Canaan and sought refuge in the highlands, they are also thought to have incorporated the remnants of the Shasu during the Late Bronze Age Collapse, with time the cult of Yahweh became henotheistic, then monolatric by replacing and collecting the attributes of all the other Canaanite deities, before finally becoming monotheistic. Many good books have been written on this, it's a fascinating topic.
    I've heard somewhere that Yahweh was originally a Sun God / Father of Light, not a Desert God. And worshipped on mountans. Not sure if related.
     
    Isabella

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    Actually, Yahweh was not the original god of the Israelites. This is even visibile in their name which contains "El", the patriarchal head of the Canaanite pantheon: יִשְׂרָאֵלYiśrāˀēl and not Yiśrāyahu

    Yahweh OTOH is largely understood to have come from the south, and indeed this deity makes its first appearance amongst the Shasu of Yhw. The Shasu were the nomadic element of Bronze Age Canaanite society, living on the fringes of the Canaanite world. And in accordance with this setting, Yahweh is a desert deity, a god of sandstorms and storms, and most importantly a "divine warrior" who grants victory to those who worship him. While the Proto-Israelites primarily derived from the local Canaanites who fled the major cities of Canaan and sought refuge in the highlands, they are also thought to have incorporated the remnants of the Shasu during the Late Bronze Age Collapse, with time the cult of Yahweh became henotheistic, then monolatric by absorbing all the other Canaanite deities, before finally becoming monotheistic. Many good books have been written on this, it's a fascinating topic.
    I thought Yahweh originated as the god of metallurgy worshipped by mine and metal workers in antiquity, and that he had some kind of volcanic properties which remained somewhat intact like the fire that usually accompanied his apparitions in the Bible, most notably with Moses. This is a very interesting subject though!
    If the Israelites started out as worshiping El, how did they end up with Yahweh as their main diety?
     
    True Palestinian

    True Palestinian

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    I've heard somewhere that Yahweh was originally a Sun God / Father of Light, not a Desert God. And worshipped on mountans. Not sure if related.
    Yahweh certainly is a god of the mountain and the desert, the epithet "šadday" basically means "the mountain one". He is understood to have come from "Teiman" (on old Hebrew synonym for "south" which now means "Yemen"), see for instance Habaqquq 3:

    אֱלוֹהַּ מִתֵּימָן יָבוֹא, וְקָדוֹשׁ מֵהַר-פָּארָן
    God came from the South [miTēymān], and The Holy One from Mount Paran
    Keep in mind though that Yahweh absorbed many of the epithets and characteristics that were initially assigned to other deities of the Canaanite pantheon. For example, Yahweh stands in the עֲדַת-אֵל ˁădat-ˀĒl which is the heavenly council or assembly identical to the Ugaritic ˁadatu ˀIlima. In this council gather the Banī ˀIlima parallel to the בְּנֵי אֵלִים Bənēy ˀĒlīm in Psalms 29:1, 82:1 and other passages. Another epithet of Yahweh is אֵל בְּרִית ˀĒl Brīt parallel to the Canaanite Baˁal Brit.

    I could go on and on like this.
     
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    True Palestinian

    True Palestinian

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    I thought Yahweh originated as the god of metallurgy worshipped by mine and metal workers in antiquity, and that he had some kind of volcanic properties which remained somewhat intact like the fire that usually accompanied his apparitions in the Bible, most notably with Moses. This is a very interesting subject though!
    If the Israelites started out as worshiping El, how did they end up with Yahweh as their main diety?
    Yahweh was a local deity among the Shasu nomads, his worship was probably restricted to the area the Bible calls "Midian". This is precisely the area where the exploitation of copper & development of metallurgy took root in the Southern Levant (around the Timna valley) during the Chalcolithic. So the association with metallurgy could make sense. That being said Yahweh as a volcano genius is mostly a 19th century construct. Kothar wa Khasis was the Ugaritic, and probably Canaanite blacksmith of the gods, and his abode was in Crete and the "western isles", Yahweh does not have much in common with this deity.

    What is clear is that Yahweh was a god of storms and sandstorms, and this is where his association with thunder, lightning and smoke and fire comes from. His position as the storm god explains the rivalry with the cult of Ba'al, also a contender for this position. In fact, in if we go back to Habaqquq 3:11 we read the following:

    שֶׁמֶשׁ יָרֵחַ עָמַד זְבֻלָה לְאוֹר חִצֶּיךָ יְהַלֵּכוּ לְנֹגַהּ בְּרַק חֲנִיתֶךָ
    The sun and the moon stood still in their habitation,

    they march at the light of your arrows,
    by the lightning flash of your spear
    In other words, Yahweh has a spear (ḥănīt) which produces lightning and thunderbolts when thrown. Ba'al is described as having the exact same kind of spear in several ancient Canaanite and Ugaritic texts... In fact, this also shows up in the depictions of Ba'al, for instance pay close attention to the spear he is holding in this stele (from Ugarit):



    As to why the Israelites went from worshipping El to worshipping Yahweh, the explanation is rather simple. As I said above, the Proto-Israelites were generic Late Bronze Age Canaanites most of whom originated in the numerous city-states of the lowlands and the coastal plain. All elements of society were present, from the most wretched to the most well-off and talented. During the LBA collapse, they also incorporated nomads who brought Yahweh to the highlands of central Canaan. After the Bronze Age collapse and during the early Iron Age, the city-state model was no longer viable, and so new peoples appeared, new identities were forged and these were generally articulated around kingship and national centralisation. Each nation had its own national deity, so for instance the Moabites had Kemosh, the Edomites had Qos/Qaws... And the Israelites had Yahweh, all of these were virtually unknown in Canaan during the Bronze Age. Iron Age Levantine religion back then was henotheistic, meaning that while a single deity was worshipped, the existence of other gods was not denied, even though the worshipped deity tended to assimilate the attributes of other gods. Think of how the Assyrians worshipped Ashur as their national god and how the Babylonians worshipped Marduk, without ceasing to be polytheists.

    Edit: The old Canaanite city-state system survived better in Phoenicia which was largely spared by the LBA collapse thanks to its natural isolation. This is also why the Bronze Age Canaanite pantheon remained untouched in Phoenicia.
     
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    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

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    very similar these religions. aw2at ka2ano copy paste. islam wants us to believe their line is through son ishmael whilst jews and christian through son isaac.

    but wlooo chou fe similiarities.
     
    Isabella

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    All Abrahamic religions are influenced by Zoroastrianism in one way or another, there are a lot of commonalities between Zoroastrianism and Christianity for example: they had a big emphasis on free will and the duality between good and evil and that human beings would have to choose between the two; their god Ahura Mazda had a double trinity; Zoroaster was virgin born; they also had a form of primitive baptism, etc. Big commonalities with Judaism especially in the concept of a coming saviour in the form of a human being.

    Basically Zoroastrianism is the grandaddy of all monotheistic religions
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Also, the Mihrab within mosques comes from Zoroastrianism and their temple architecture. "Before the emergence of Islam, the word Mihrab was used in some religions to indicate a certain kind of religious building. In Mithraism (in Persia and Mesopotamia) the temples were called Mihraba or Mihrkada. Moreover, there is a semicircular niche at the front part of churches which is very similar to Mihrab. "
     
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