Tal al zaatar 1976

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  • My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Like then, like now, with minor differences. Who did what, when and why, are superfluous details. The story of Tall el Za3tar is an iliad over the infinite ja7shaneh of those times Maronites leaders, cursed be each and every name of them who put his signature on Cairo agreement 1968. Their nylon backs couldn't resist the arabic umma pressure so they had to bend over.

    It takes one freely roaming idiot with a handgun to shut down a whole market; with ten, you close a small town. Before going to bed and snoring heavily, our fools let in hordes of overexcited street gangs of m'sadd2een 7aloun thawrajiyye, tens of thousands of them. And they were armed to the teeth.

    History is repeating itself as we speak, although with slightly different components.

    At this stage, put me before any heavenly or earthy court and I can testify with hand on my mom's grave that ma fi a7mar w aj7ash,w aghba w ahbal w asstal w anyak men zou3ama lebnen 2ella sha3bo.
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    I posted this not for any polemique purpose . But to try to understand what happened back then and why did this happened.
    Most of us werent born back then so no one need to feel guilty.. but our duty to get the lessons from it..and we should understand what happened and never let it happen again.
    Said that,

    This documentary reveal many interesting details unknown before.
    . The syrian role in this massacre .
    . The fact that kataeb wasnt the part that triggered the massacre .
    . The role of some palestinian factions pro syria..
    . The syrian - israeli background accord.
     
    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I posted this not for any polemique purpose . But to try to understand what happened back then and why did this happened.
    Most of us werent born back then so no one need to feel guilty.. but our duty to get the lessons from it..and we should understand what happened and never let it happen again.
    Said that,

    This documentary reveal many interesting details unknown before.
    . The syrian role in this massacre .
    . The fact that kataeb wasnt the part that triggered the massacre .
    . The role of some palestinian factions pro syria..
    . The syrian - israeli background accord.
    Except for the Syrians exaggerated role in storming the military fortress of Tel Al Zaatar, most are well established and known facts.
    Syrian artillery may have occasionally shelled the camp/fortress during the nearly two months long fighting, but in no way did that have any decisive impact on the battle's outcome. Also everyone knew Sa3ika was Syrian moukhabarat disguised as one of the many so called Palestinian liberation gangs. They also were the gang who spearheaded the Damour massacre.

    In the video, Sa3ikas operative chief in Tal el Zaatar at the time claims neither the Lebanese Front nor the whole Lebanon could have stepped one millimeter inside Tall el Zaater had it not been for the Syrian military support. That's pure bullsh!t but which also indirectly describes the kind of heavy military buildup the bastards had managed to achieve in that "refugee camp" located at the heart of Lebanon, 200 km away from Israel's borders.

    but never blame the snake for being so snaky, blame the lunatics who invite it to their bed.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    most of the information in the documentary about the events leading to that battle are wrong or inaccurate

    this is the reason why tall el za3tar had to go, without mentioning the killing of local civilians in that phase, just from a strategic perspective.

    palestinians used the tal zaatar camp as a starting base to cut all the main roads around the camp, there was also attempts to connect to pro palestinian forces in the region, from karantina to nab3a to saloume to dekwane to tal el za3tar, there was only a little stretch left for peopel to be able to get eastern beirut from the region of metn, and that was between dekawneh and salomi, which was less than 1 km wide.

    in other words eastern beirut was under siege and it was risking being cut from the other Christian areas.

    the palestinians were very well prepared and very well trained for the fight. whereas from the other side people were under equipped, often times fighting with hunting guns, so it took a while to prepare for that battle, it was the first real battle for most of the Christian parties, they were simply attacking better trained, better equipped and better positioned militias.

    on the local level in the region, the people did it because the palestinians committed all kinds of atrocities against civilians, and the locals had to quickly organize themselves efficiently enough to provide an adequate defense line to protect themselves and their families. on the strategic level however, it was about more than just that, it was to prevent eastern beirut from falling.



    1594759803186.png

    the map i have attached explains the situation, the black circles indicate the areas where the palestinians and allies were positioned (tal el zaatar, nabaa, quarantina), and the red circles indicates the objective they were actually trying to occupy, had they been able to accomplish these objectives and join their positions all of eastern beirut would have fallen.

    to note, the heavy grunt of the fighting was done by the Lebanese Army under GMA (Ra3d), the Tigers from Ahrar, the locals people of the area who showed exceptional courage, as to the phalanges, they were mostly in the way..
     
    Last edited:
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    this documentary contains some footage from of the battle.
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    وويقول أبو إياد "دليلي على ذلك هو رد فعل اليمين المسيحي على عرض التسوية الذي قدمته المقاومة مع كمال جنبلاط أليهم في 25 أيار أي قبل تدخل الجيش السوري بأسبوع، وكان هدف الصيغة المقترحة هو بالضبط منع تدخل دمشق العسكري فقد عرضنا الانسحاب من كافة المناطق التي فتح في الجبل على أن نتركها تحت إشراف قوات تكفي لشن هجوم مضاد ولتحطيم الحصار، لكن الجيش السوري كان مع الكتائبيين وسلم هذا الاقتراح الذي حررت صيغته بيدي في رسالة إلى بيير الجميل بواسطة معاوني أبو حسن سلامة، إلا أن رئيس الكتائب لم يرد على رسالتي غذ كان ينتظر خشبة الخلاص الدمشقية وفرصة تحقيق انتصارات عسكرية".

    وتابع في كتابه "الحقيقة هي أن تل الزعتر كان مشروع إبادة بالأسلوب الفاشي الصرف، وقد كان "بيير الجميل وكميل شمعون" يعرفان أننا لا نملك أية وسيلة فعالة لتحرير مخيم اللاجئين المطوق مع التجمعين المجاورين له والمطوقين تطويقا كاملا بواسطة حزام مسيحي يسيطر عليه الانفصاليون، وكان لدينا في المطلق قوات تكفي لشن هجوم مضاد ولتحطيم الحصار لكن الجيش السوري كان لا يزال رغم اتفاق وقف إطلاق النار الذي عقدناه معه قبل ذلك ببضعة أيام يشل حركتنا في شمال لبنان وفي جنوبه معا بحيث أن سحب المقاومة لقواتها من المراكز التي تحتلها في مواجهة القوات السورية كان سيشكل كارثة،"غير أننا أسهمنا في الدفاع عن المخيم بقصف محاصريه وبمحاولة تدمير مدافعهم المبعثرة في المدينة، وعلى التلال المجاورة حيث كنا نتمكن من تحديد مواقعها بفضل المعلومات اللوجستيكية التي كان المسئولون العسكريون في تل الزعتر يزودونا بها بواسطة الراديو وبفضل هذا الحزام الناري الذي أنشأتاه لم يتمكن المحاصرون من اقتحام المخيم".






    مذبحة تل الزعتر... الحكاية التي لم تروى - شبكة قدس الإخبارية
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    Except for the Syrians exaggerated role in storming the military fortress of Tel Al Zaatar, most are well established and known facts.
    Syrian artillery may have occasionally shelled the camp/fortress during the nearly two months long fighting, but in no way did that have any decisive impact on the battle's outcome. Also everyone knew Sa3ika was Syrian moukhabarat disguised as one of the many so called Palestinian liberation gangs. They also were the gang who spearheaded the Damour massacre.

    In the video, Sa3ikas operative chief in Tal el Zaatar at the time claims neither the Lebanese Front nor the whole Lebanon could have stepped one millimeter inside Tall el Zaater had it not been for the Syrian military support. That's pure bullsh!t but which also indirectly describes the kind of heavy military buildup the bastards had managed to achieve in that "refugee camp" located at the heart of Lebanon, 200 km away from Israel's borders.

    but never blame the snake for being so snaky, blame the lunatics who invite it to their bed.
    Lets talk also about damour ..

    I have no much details about it rather than elie hobeika fioncee killed there .
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    Was watching some videos on youtube about middle eat.. Among the despotic arab regimes from syria to iraq to the gulf and north africa , lebanon , could be an oasis to democracy and dialogue ..instead it became hell on earth ..
    There is no logic in all what happen , no logic at all .. It was like a domino effect and animal spirit prevailed in a fight for survival .. What i felel sorry about are the millions of innocent people died , wether lebanese wether palestinian , wether druze, muslim , wether christians, wether phalangist wether comunist. thats not what religions and ideologies were set for .. Religions and ideologies had all the objective to built a better society, and it become an instrument of despostism , cruelness and criminality .. Hope that people learn the lessons . seeing some old footage from syria and iraq, al baath , falsly considered itself arab socialism , but with socialism have nothing to get close too .. Both criminal fascist regimes which ruled with fire and blood and left entire society in misery and destroyed entire people .. Iraqui , syrian , lebanese and palestinians .. Victims of western imperialism from one side and from arab despots from another side..
    Hope that lebanese learn the lesson and understand their role to play toward other middle east people .
     
    lebnan_lilkel

    lebnan_lilkel

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    most of the information in the documentary about the events leading to that battle are wrong or inaccurate

    this is the reason why tall el za3tar had to go, without mentioning the killing of local civilians in that phase, just from a strategic perspective.

    palestinians used the tal zaatar camp as a starting base to cut all the main roads around the camp, there was also attempts to connect to pro palestinian forces in the region, from karantina to nab3a to saloume to dekwane to tal el za3tar, there was only a little stretch left for peopel to be able to get eastern beirut from the region of metn, and that was between dekawneh and salomi, which was less than 1 km wide.

    in other words eastern beirut was under siege and it was risking being cut from the other Christian areas.

    the palestinians were very well prepared and very well trained for the fight. whereas from the other side people were under equipped, often times fighting with hunting guns, so it took a while to prepare for that battle, it was the first real battle for most of the Christian parties, they were simply attacking better trained, better equipped and better positioned militias.

    on the local level in the region, the people did it because the palestinians committed all kinds of atrocities against civilians, and the locals had to quickly organize themselves efficiently enough to provide an adequate defense line to protect themselves and their families. on the strategic level however, it was about more than just that, it was to prevent eastern beirut from falling.



    View attachment 20041

    the map i have attached explains the situation, the black circles indicate the areas where the palestinians and allies were positioned (tal el zaatar, nabaa, quarantina), and the red circles indicates the objective they were actually trying to occupy, had they been able to accomplish these objectives and join their positions all of eastern beirut would have fallen.

    to note, the heavy grunt of the fighting was done by the Lebanese Army under GMA (Ra3d), the Tigers from Ahrar, the locals people of the area who showed exceptional courage, as to the phalanges, they were mostly in the way..
    its easy to Criticize the events , but when the Fatah and Sa3ika guys were wrecking havoc on their neighbourhoods, busting into the Matn Internal security headquarters to free their criminals and bashing a traffic policeman who didn't listen to their car sirens and let them through etc.. you realise that the left have a case to answer for. They used their political convictions to justify their own genocides and critic the reaction of the victims.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    its easy to Criticize the events , but when the Fatah and Sa3ika guys were wrecking havoc on their neighbourhoods, busting into the Matn Internal security headquarters to free their criminals and bashing a traffic policeman who didn't listen to their car sirens and let them through etc.. you realise that the left have a case to answer for. They used their political convictions to justify their own genocides and critic the reaction of the victims.
    as long as the Lebanese are unable to agree on a unified version of the events, if only to write them down in our history, it is an indication that we are still in deep trouble and have not made our peace as a people with the civil war. the events of tal el zaatar are just another chapter in that book of disagreements, the honest truth remains with the inhabitants of the region from both sides.

    the reality of the matter however in something that @My Moria Moon already picked up, one of the palestinian fighters from that era described what kind of a fortress tal el zaatar was. turning the camp into a fortress was not done overnight, it took many years of preparation. this lone is enough evidence for a pre-planned and meditated aggression.

    most people however do not care much about reality and truth, it is rather more about repeating certain mantras to them.
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    as long as the Lebanese are unable to agree on a unified version of the events, if only to write them down in our history, it is an indication that we are still in deep trouble and have not made our peace as a people with the civil war. the events of tal el zaatar are just another chapter in that book of disagreements, the honest truth remains with the inhabitants of the region from both sides.

    the reality of the matter however in something that @My Moria Moon already picked up, one of the palestinian fighters from that era described what kind of a fortress tal el zaatar was. turning the camp into a fortress was not done overnight, it took many years of preparation. this lone is enough evidence for a pre-planned and meditated aggression.

    most people however do not care much about reality and truth, it is rather more about repeating certain mantras to them.

    to rewrite history one need not to extract a single event and elaborate about it ... events are connected and the law of cause-effect is a main principle .

    its correct to ask why tal al zaatar was turned into a fortress .. but before that , one need to ask , why the hell a sovreign country will accept the presence of a foreign armed milithia on its land ( or militia influenced by another country ) ...

    but in my opinion .. there was a dirty syrian game played all long the 30 years of syrian influence .. in which they used groups against eachother in a way to divide and conquer..with the blood blackmail ..
    same dirty game was played by israel in sabra and shatila...
    lebanese were marionette like in a bloody game between syria and israel and the other countries behind them...
    and palestinians are another victims for this game and not main players..
    they were kicked from their land , later they were massacred in jordan ,if you dont take that into consideration you wont be able to write the correct history...

    as much as i feel sorry for every lebanese killed , i cannot but feel sorry on every palestinian . and i cannot but sympathize with their cause ...if you take a side ( like hilf baghdad axis ) then you put yourself in a game that is bigger than you ..but again im not here to take side and judge the others.but im trying to understand how the game was played .who were the actors and why things happened ..and understand the motives of each part in the conflict.
     
    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Watch and cry, it's educational. Watch this video and vomit over the disgusting j7ash who were in charge of us. Watch how a zmikk tartoush refugee like Arafat becomes someone whose wink was enough to elect Elias Sarkis instead of Reymond Eddeh Lebanese president. Sha3b sharmout, literally. From spreading their legs to Dean Brown to Hafez Assad to a refugee called Abu 3ammar.

    And the story never ended.

     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    Syria al assad hold responsability about this criminal massacre as much as israel is responsible for sabra and shatila .
     
    light-in-dark

    light-in-dark

    Legendary Member
    1st this is off topic .
    Second , as much as erdogan act is despisable..and i as secular cannot but condemn ..
    But , the president of the biggest orthodox country in the world ( Russia ) said that is an internal turkish matter..
    Now one could put it into its real dimension,,the inter religious context ..
    The issue is completely different regarding the palestinian issue .. I dont agree with the palestinian president position.. But i still support the palestinian people struggle for peace..
    Ici c’est un piège mon ami de la part de Putin.
    Toutes les autorités impériales couvent les unes les autres comme les corrompus de toutes les sectes et les parties au Liban.
    Mais vraiment il va être un prétexte pour les sionistes.

    je ne suis pas d’accord avec toi que c’est hors sujet.
    Les palestiniens ont l’été bien accueillis par la majorité des libanais. Nous sommes une famille chrétienne et mon père était un libéral national (Ahrar). Il avait beaucoup d’amis palestiniens, j’avais Six ans en 1976 et je me souviens que j’ai même dormi chez ses amis.
    Fatmeh jouait avec mes sœurs et moi avec Hassan wa Houssayn and 3idnane. Nous mangions et nous s’amusions ensemble et tal el zaatar was happening in same time and damour. Nothing changed our ties. Till Israeli invasion.

    we don’t talk religion we live peacefully people in Lebanon were killing each other and we were living together.
    To make the story short no one of us insulted the religion of other or nationality. The war against Palestinians were jaysh el sunna.
    In that way so many of us will never be beside the laïc PLO Mahmoud Abbas anymore.
    Every thing is linked to history I think.
     
    light-in-dark

    light-in-dark

    Legendary Member
    Syria al assad hold responsability about this criminal massacre as much as israel is responsible for sabra and shatila .
    Even sabra and shatilla HK accomplished what gagez el Assad wanted. Assad want Ed to finish every abou 3ammar followers.
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    Ici c’est un piège mon ami de la part de Putin.
    Toutes les autorités impériales couvent les unes les autres comme les corrompus de toutes les sectes et les parties au Liban.
    Mais vraiment il va être un prétexte pour les sionistes.

    je ne suis pas d’accord avec toi que c’est hors sujet.
    Les palestiniens ont l’été bien accueillis par la majorité des libanais. Nous sommes une famille chrétienne et mon père était un libéral national (Ahrar). Il avait beaucoup d’amis palestiniens, j’avais Six ans en 1976 et je me souviens que j’ai même dormi chez ses amis.
    Fatmeh jouait avec mes sœurs et moi avec Hassan wa Houssayn and 3idnane. Nous mangions et nous s’amusions ensemble et tal el zaatar was happening in same time and damour. Nothing changed our ties. Till Israeli invasion.

    we don’t talk religion we live peacefully people in Lebanon were killing each other and we were living together.
    To make the story short no one of us insulted the religion of other or nationality. The war against Palestinians were jaysh el sunna.
    In that way so many of us will never be beside the laïc PLO Mahmoud Abbas anymore.
    Every thing is linked to history I think.
    My objective is not accusing .but understanding and learn lessons from our past..
    Its not a personal issue betweekelie and ali , hassan and hussein . But its a political issue ..
    I want that lebanon act as a sovreign country .. Rule of law .. And palestinians back in their lands, and to do so we need to understand our history , our errores in order necessarily start a new page and open new political horizons.. And not talking about the past to remain in the past..
    Errors were made , and one need to acknowledge that and understand it.
     
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