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The Ella Tannous vs Dr. Issam Maalouf case

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
let them strike who needs doctors? we have tony khalifeh and marcel ghanem


See this is the blackmailing I am talking about...
Let them strike as much as they want since they chose to solve the issue in the street and not in court.

On the other hand, I think the Health Ministry should tell the patients not to pay bills/charges for those days.

Blaming the media for reporting the incident is not useful and does not make your case any stronger. Kalam El Nass (as said yesterday) didn't mention the doctor name, it only reported the case as given by the health ministry and the parents of the baby girl.
PS. I don't watch Kalam El Nass but it is easy to verify if they mentioned the doctor name or not

If you don't want your sh*t to go public all you need is deal with it responsibly
 
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eLad

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
See this is the blackmailing I am talking about...
Let them strike as much as they want since they chose to solve the issue in the street and not in court.

On the other hand, I think the Health Ministry should tell the patients not to pay bills/charges for those days.

Blaming the media for reporting the incident is not useful and does not make your case any stronger. Kalam El Nass (as said yesterday) didn't mention the doctor name, it only reported the case as given by the health ministry and the parents of the baby girl.
PS. I don't watch Kalam El Nass but it is easy to verify if they mentioned the doctor name or not

If you don't want your sh*t to go public all you need is deal with it responsibly
you don't know anything about medical practice, you dont know how hospitals work, you dont know the duties and the rights of the doctors, you don't watch kalam el nas, you don't like tony khalifeh... w.... 3a shou 3am bet shere3?
 

ForeverOrange

Well-Known Member
Aounist:

At the bottom, please find a link to an article in the NYTimes titled
An Infection, Unnoticed, Turns Unstoppable about a 12 year old boy who went to the doctor, was misdiagnosed, went to the Emergency Room at New York University Hospital, was misdiagnosed and sent home, returned to the hospital in a couple of days and DIED. Cause of death: group A strept, same infection as Ella had.

One of the infectious disease experts was quoted in the article as saying: "But if it is able to penetrate soft tissue or blood, “it moves very quickly,” said Dr. Michael B. Edmond, the chairman of the division of infectious diseases at Virginia Commonwealth University. “The mortality rate is high. The clinical findings early in the infection can be relatively subtle.”

Aounist:

4 points to take from this:

1. The mortality rate is high, even in America, not just Lebanon. This means that kids die in America because of this infection. This is a tough infection, Aounist. very virulent.

2. None of the doctors were arrested after the kid was misdiagnosed and died due to the infection.

3. bad outcome doesn't necessarily mean malpractice. it's sometimes the nature of the beast, Aounist.

4. Lebanese Doctors are very competent. in America, Ella would have died.


تحياتي



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/12/n...r-his-life-signs-that-went-unheeded.html?_r=0
 
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eLad

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Aounist:

At the bottom, please find a link to an article in the NYTimes titled
An Infection, Unnoticed, Turns Unstoppable about a 12 year old boy who went to the doctor, was misdiagnosed, went to the Emergency Room at New York University Hospital, was misdiagnosed and sent home, returned to the hospital in a couple of days and DIED. Cause of death: group A strept, same infection as Ella had.

One of the infectious disease experts was quoted in the article as saying: "But if it is able to penetrate soft tissue or blood, “it moves very quickly,” said Dr. Michael B. Edmond, the chairman of the division of infectious diseases at Virginia Commonwealth University. “The mortality rate is high. The clinical findings early in the infection can be relatively subtle.”

Aounist:

3 points to take from this:

1. The mortality rate is high, even in America, not just Lebanon. This means that kids die in American because of this infection. This is a tough infection, Aounist. very virulent.

2. None of the doctors were arrested after the kid was misdiagnosed and died due to the infection.

3. bad outcome doesn't necessarily mean malpractice. it's sometimes the nature of the beast, Aounist.


تحياتي


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/12/n...r-his-life-signs-that-went-unheeded.html?_r=0
have you gone deep into Ella's case?

just out of curiosity, do you think if the doctor saw the baby on that sunday could he have saved her limbs? or was it too late already?
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
you don't know anything about medical practice, you dont know how hospitals work, you dont know the duties and the rights of the doctors, you don't watch kalam el nas, you don't like tony khalifeh... w.... 3a shou 3am bet shere3?

Enta yelli 3am tshere3 mish ana.
I said prosecutor arrested the guy. If LOP thinks it is a false arrest it can challenge it legally and not in the street and not by blackmailing the society.

my only concern as a Lebanese citizen is that this little girl gets JUSTICE if you ever know what this word mean.
 

ForeverOrange

Well-Known Member
have you gone deep into Ella's case?

just out of curiosity, do you think if the doctor saw the baby on that sunday could he have saved her limbs? or was it too late already?

Tough to tell. If he got the right labs, maybe. But truly, most kids don't survive this infection. It is very nasty. Read the story of the 12 year old boy in New York that I attached above. Very sad.
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
نقيب الأطباء انطوان بستاني:
- في لبنان جيشين الأول يحفظ الأمن والثاني يحفظ صحة المواطنين
- صمتنا اعتبروه ضعفاً.. نحن في بلد الفاجر له قانون يحميه
- هناك سيف مسلّط على رأس الطبيب وراءه الإعلام
- نقول بصوت عالٍ لصديقنا الدكتور عصام معلوف.. نحن معك
- قضيتك هي بمثابة النقطة التي طفح بها الكيل وستشكّل بداية تحرّك لوقف المهزلة التي تطال قطاع الطب في لبنان
 

Jo

Administrator
Master Penguin
Yesterday Dr. Maalouf was admitted to the hospital.

He was given a room with 2 criminals and his family and loved ones are not allowed to visit.

The doctor do not deserve this in my opinion.
 

eLad

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Enta yelli 3am tshere3 mish ana.
I said prosecutor arrested the guy. If LOP thinks it is a false arrest it can challenge it legally and not in the street and not by blackmailing the society.

my only concern as a Lebanese citizen is that this little girl gets JUSTICE if you ever know what this word mean.
you and me know nothing about medicine and law, unlike you ma 3am shere3 la shere3, i'm trying to understand for the sake of my kids and those of the readers if something could have been done for Ella and if by law the doctor is responsible for it, we are lucky to have in this forum doctors and lawyers to answer those questions.
 

eLad

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Tough to tell. If he got the right labs, maybe. But truly, most kids don't survive this infection. It is very nasty. Read the story of the 12 year old boy in New York that I attached above. Very sad.
that's what i'd like to know, are there any signs that lab tests should have been done? or was it just a common high fever
 

ForeverOrange

Well-Known Member
that's what i'd like to know, are there any signs that lab tests should have been done? or was it just a common high fever

Nothing specific. High fever, high white blood cell count, high heart rate, high respiratory rate (number of breaths per minute) and a positive blood culture. The blood culture takes a while to come back though. Eventually, blood pressure starts dropping because the blood vessels can't constrict anymore. By then, you are behind the 8 ball.

This specific bacteria causes kidney failure and heart condition called rheumatic fever. It destroys the valves of the heart and eventually require heart valve replacement surgery later on.
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
you and me know nothing about medicine and law, unlike you ma 3am shere3 la shere3, i'm trying to understand for the sake of my kids and those of the readers if something could have been done for Ella and if by law the doctor is responsible for it, we are lucky to have in this forum doctors and lawyers to answer those questions.

No you are totally wrong.
Because I only started to get interested in this case when the LOP report mentioned التقصير الأخلاقي
I didn't base my opinion on the parents emotional testimony, I was not the one who arrested the doctor.
I heard the two versions, I heard and posted the version of Kalam El Nass that said they didn't tell the doctor name, it is the LOP who mentioned it.
All this stuff made me formalize my opinion. The LOP reaction made me more convinced that there is a MAFIA mindset that is governing most organisms in this country.
Only ordinary people pay the price.

@ForeverOrange says that in USA the insurance covers the compensations of malpractice.
I want to know if there were any malpractice in this case? in my opinion there is a smell of it, but I am not qualified to judge, so I am waiting to see..
that's why I thought bringing NEUTRAL experts from abroad could help because LOP is not neutral and will fight any trend of paying for medical errors.

I want justice for this girl....because she and her parents have all the right to know why this is happened.
Sending the doctor to jail is not my goal
 

ForeverOrange

Well-Known Member
The issue of disparity in care based on season, day of the week, has been reported and studied In America. July is the worst month to get sick. Many senior physicians take vacation around that time with their kids. It is also the month when students become interns, interns become residents, and residents become board eligible/certified physicians. It is the month when people transform from a short white coat to a long white coat. So the level of experience may not be adequate.

To aounist's point, the outcome may have been different if this happened on a Tuesday, (instead of Sunday), when the hospital is booming with doctors and resources (X-ray technicians, laboratory tech, others). However, that's not dr maalouf's fault.

The minister of health needs to forget about notoriety, wealth, and selfies for a moment, form a committee of docs, administrators, civil rights advocate, community organizers, to address the disparity of care that exists based on day of week or month and the ways to improve it (quicker referral to tertiary hospitals, full time hospitalists around the clock, designation of hospitals as level 1,2 ,3 trauma and acute care centers based on resource availability. The designation also implied higher governmental reimbursement).

The issue of care disparity should be addressed. But it is shameful and disgraceful on us all if dr maalouf spends a single minute in jail.
 
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JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Aounist:

At the bottom, please find a link to an article in the NYTimes titled
An Infection, Unnoticed, Turns Unstoppable about a 12 year old boy who went to the doctor, was misdiagnosed, went to the Emergency Room at New York University Hospital, was misdiagnosed and sent home, returned to the hospital in a couple of days and DIED. Cause of death: group A strept, same infection as Ella had.

One of the infectious disease experts was quoted in the article as saying: "But if it is able to penetrate soft tissue or blood, “it moves very quickly,” said Dr. Michael B. Edmond, the chairman of the division of infectious diseases at Virginia Commonwealth University. “The mortality rate is high. The clinical findings early in the infection can be relatively subtle.”

Aounist:

4 points to take from this:

1. The mortality rate is high, even in America, not just Lebanon. This means that kids die in America because of this infection. This is a tough infection, Aounist. very virulent.

2. None of the doctors were arrested after the kid was misdiagnosed and died due to the infection.

3. bad outcome doesn't necessarily mean malpractice. it's sometimes the nature of the beast, Aounist.

4. Lebanese Doctors are very competent. in America, Ella would have died.


تحياتي



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/12/n...r-his-life-signs-that-went-unheeded.html?_r=0


Did I ever mention that all lebanese doctors are bad ???
In every group of people there are the bad guys and the good guys and this is normal.
What is not normal is that the governing body rushes to hide all the sh*t inside this group.

I am not a doctor but I am not very far from medical field because I have friends who are doctors.
I hear stories that make me sick. These doctors have so many critics against the LOP but they are not powerful enough to confront it fearing retribution.

This case attracted the media attention and the public opinion. the LOP had the opportunity to deal with it responsibly and in a transparent manner, but instead they unleashed an attack against the media who reported the issue... This raises question about what are they trying to hide ?!

The doctor is not jailed for life he is arrested for investigation. Whether this is right or wrong I don't know, but I am sure there is a legal procedure to deal with it instead of barking in the streets
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Nothing specific. High fever, high white blood cell count, high heart rate, high respiratory rate (number of breaths per minute) and a positive blood culture. The blood culture takes a while to come back though. Eventually, blood pressure starts dropping because the blood vessels can't constrict anymore. By then, you are behind the 8 ball.

This specific bacteria causes kidney failure and heart condition called rheumatic fever. It destroys the valves of the heart and eventually require heart valve replacement surgery later on.

where does this bacteria come from ?
is it possible that her sister contaminated her because she was sick a week earlier and was treated by the same doctor with antibiotics
 

ForeverOrange

Well-Known Member
where does this bacteria come from ?
is it possible that her sister contaminated her because she was sick a week earlier and was treated by the same doctor with antibiotics

We have strept group A bacteria on our skin and in our throats. It is part of the human ecosystem. It only becomes a problem when it gets into the bloodstream.

she most Likely contacted a viral illness from her sister. The virus decreased her immune system and left her vulnerable to the bacterial attack.
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
We have strept group A bacteria on our skin and in our throats. It is part of the human ecosystem. It only becomes a problem when it gets into the bloodstream.

she most Likely contacted a viral illness from her sister. The virus decreased her immune system and left her vulnerable to the bacterial attack.

Do you think antibiotics early on and just out of fearing that opportunistic bacteria could profit from her weakened immune system could have saved her ??

I am now talking technical and not trying to know whose fault it is
 

lebnan_lilkel

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
If you live in Australia, it takes you 4 hours in a waiting room to see a doctor in an emergency situation. There have been some deaths because of this. The worst part is that doctors avoid using life saving diagnostic equipment to reduce costs. Lebanese doctors try hard to boost patience moral but they don't have to. I've seen Australian doctors bring out their school books to diagnose an infection. Actually it was very scary.
The best doctor is yourself. You have to question the medicine you take. Hanna blamed the doctor for neglect, I would say that his family should have questioned the doctors decision to drop blood thinning medicine. Many diseases are hereditary. Taking an interest in your parents and grandparents diseases is essential. Doctors are under pressure from the "Daman" and health insurance to reduce costs or loose business and livelihood. That's reality, a doctor is just another human being with greater responsibility and exposure than any other profession.
 
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JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
If you live in Australia, it takes you 4 hours in a waiting room to see a doctor in an emergency situation. There have been some deaths because of this. The worst part is that doctors avoid using life saving diagnostic equipment to reduce costs. Lebanese doctors try hard to boost patience moral but they don't have to. I've seen Australian doctors bring out their school books to diagnose an infection. Actually it was very scary.
The best doctor is yourself. You have to question the medicine you take. Hanna blamed the doctor for neglect, I would say that his family should have questioned the doctors decision to drop blood thinning medicine. Many diseases are hereditary. Taking an interest in your parents and grandparents diseases is essential. Doctors are under pressure from the "Daman" and health insurance to reduce costs or loose business and livelihood. That's reality, a doctor is just another human being with greater responsibility and exposure than any other profession.

There are worse! I once waited in the emergency waiting room for 9 hours in Paris.
But this is related to the capacity of the hospital and it is only the government who can change that by increasing health care investment. This is not the story here.

The parents complained about the doctor to the LOP but the LOP cleared him and its report contained details inconsistent with the actual sequence of events.
If it happened with anyone in this forum wouldn't he be suspicious about it ?

The case attracted media because the LOP failed to be transparent...
The doctor was arrested by the prosecutor I don't know on what legal ground but he can't arrest him him if there were no law or at least a gap in the law that allows him to do it.
The LOP has every right to legally challenge this arrest, but taking the streets and going on strikes is no more legal procedure but a MOB approach.

I can only guess the endgame of LOP which is : doctors can do mistakes this is unfortunate but the next day it will be business as usual and the only one who will pay the price is this innocent girl.

While in USA and according to the post of @ForeverOrange in case of error there are compensation.
Because of this error this innocent girl won't be able to live her life normally.
 
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