France The gilets jaunes

Isabella

Isabella

The Queen Of "Bazella"
Orange Room Supporter
One of the popular demands of the gilets jaunes seems to be "le référendum d'initiative citoyenne"

Dans la liste, largement partagée, de 42 revendications de gilets jaunes figure l’instauration dans la Constitution d’un « référendum populaire ». Contrairement à d’autres projets qui restent assez flous, les modalités de celui-ci sont détaillées :

« Création d’un site lisible et efficace, encadré par un organisme indépendant de contrôle où les gens pourront faire une proposition de loi. Si cette proposition de loi obtient 700 000 signatures alors cette proposition de loi devra être discutée, complétée, amendée par l’Assemblée nationale qui aura l’obligation (un an jour pour jour après l’obtention des 700 000 signatures), de la soumettre au vote de l’intégralité des Français. »

A la différence des systèmes existant en France, ni le gouvernement ni les députés ou sénateurs ne seraient associés au lancement de ce référendum, et le nombre de signatures à obtenir serait sensiblement moins élevé.

Qu’est-ce que le référendum d’initiative citoyenne demandé par des « gilets jaunes » ?
 
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  • Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Mai 68 was just before the immigration waves.. love shooting down every single point till now keep em coming...search les 30 glorieuses on your way
    charles de gualle is very much like chamel roukoz, he was a brave officer but not a good politician. he should not have resigned when a bunch of students took to the streets. he should have sent them home to their parents crying.

    the unemployment rate in france in 1968 was less than 3%. in fact only after the socialists took over it began increasing.

    and you love shooting down my points? :p are you for real? the word you should use is "debunk".
     
    Noborders

    Noborders

    Legendary Member
    Please stop with the immigration and Islamization of Europe BS!

    Expect the France fuel protests/riots to turn global eventually and probably because those who control the fuel prices on the global market want it to happen!
     
    mrsrx

    mrsrx

    Newish Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    charles de gualle is very much like chamel roukoz, he was a brave officer but not a good politician. he should not have resigned when a bunch of students took to the streets. he should have sent them home to their parents crying.

    the unemployment rate in france in 1968 was less than 3%. in fact only after the socialists took over it began increasing.

    and you love shooting down my points? :p are you for real? the word you should use is "debunk".
    for me debunk would give you a bit too much credit lol.. @Muki our resident 'murican friend "shooting down" works ?

    Unemployment is not everything! if everyone was employed but could not pay their rents? if the 3% were hungry on the streets?
    Communists where sharing the power in france from the 50s till the late 70s so during les 30 glorieuses it was not a right wing system as you make it sound. On the other hand mitterand was not up to par nor hollande but for the last 80years the french right was any country's left as they were facing the communists. lets stick to the subject of the car that was burning less that 50meters from my home in Paris where i actually know what is happening....this is becoming a one trick poney history debate that i am not interested in as for the last 4weeks my city has been burning.
     
    Noborders

    Noborders

    Legendary Member
    charles de gualle is very much like chamel roukoz, he was a brave officer but not a good politician. he should not have resigned when a bunch of students took to the streets. he should have sent them home to their parents crying.

    Not a De Gaule fan but but he had some good things to say, listen to this:

     
    Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    Also just to give you an idea just how many politicians are trying to jump on this bandwagon, Mélenchon, le Pen, ex PS members, Communists, etc. Have all tried to voice their support for the movement... Meanwhile the gilets jaunes themselves - while there are extreme right and extreme left militants joining their protests and are largely responsible for the damage- have said they are neither right nor left, which is fitting since they are angry with a president who is neither right nor left :p
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    for me debunk would give you a bit too much credit lol.. @Muki our resident 'murican friend "shooting down" works ?

    Unemployment is not everything! if everyone was employed but could not pay their rents? if the 3% were hungry on the streets?
    Communists where sharing the power in france from the 50s till the late 70s so during les 30 glorieuses it was not a right wing system as you make it sound. On the other hand mitterand was not up to par nor hollande but for the last 80years the french right was any country's left as they were facing the communists. lets stick to the subject of the car that was burning less that 50meters from my home in Paris where i actually know what is happening....this is becoming a one trick poney history kind of debate that i am not interested in as for the last 4weeks my city has been burning.
    []

    your beloved city was burned during the world cup celebrations, more than 1000 cars were burned and hundreds of shops were broken and vandalized.

    what you fail to realize is that your beloved city will continue to burn at every intersection and at every opportunity. and when that happens in the next couple of decades, please do not carry your ideas to a new place, stay in your city this time around and save the world more destruction.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Not a De Gaule fan but but he had some good things to say, listen to this:

    he was a good man, but he was not a good politician, it is much easier to fight in a war than to constructively govern in times of peace.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    One of the popular demands of the gilets jaunes seems to be "le référendum d'initiative citoyenne"

    Dans la liste, largement partagée, de 42 revendications de gilets jaunes figure l’instauration dans la Constitution d’un « référendum populaire ». Contrairement à d’autres projets qui restent assez flous, les modalités de celui-ci sont détaillées :

    « Création d’un site lisible et efficace, encadré par un organisme indépendant de contrôle où les gens pourront faire une proposition de loi. Si cette proposition de loi obtient 700 000 signatures alors cette proposition de loi devra être discutée, complétée, amendée par l’Assemblée nationale qui aura l’obligation (un an jour pour jour après l’obtention des 700 000 signatures), de la soumettre au vote de l’intégralité des Français. »

    A la différence des systèmes existant en France, ni le gouvernement ni les députés ou sénateurs ne seraient associés au lancement de ce référendum, et le nombre de signatures à obtenir serait sensiblement moins élevé.

    Qu’est-ce que le référendum d’initiative citoyenne demandé par des « gilets jaunes » ?
    Great way to bypass elected officials. Any leftist nutcase can come up with any nutty leftist law, and if he or she simply gets a small portion of the population to vote for it, they can impose that law on the majority.

    Straight from the soviet books.

    "The Bolsheviks and their allies came out with a program called "soviet government." The soviet system was described as "a higher type of state" and "a higher form of democracy" which would "arouse the masses of the exploited toilers to the task of making new history." Furthermore, it offered "to the oppressed toiling masses the opportunity to participate actively in the free construction of a new society". According to Lenin, the author of these quotations, soviet rule "is nothing else than the organized form of the dictatorship of the proletariat."

    ...

    The soviet system was seen as an alternative to parliamentary systems for administering republican governments.

    ...

    The soviets formed as a grassroots effort to practice direct democracy. Russian Marxists made them a medium for organizing against the state, and in 1917, between the February and October Revolutions, the Petrograd Soviet became a powerful force.

    ...

    In this sense, individual soviets became part of a federal structure...the organs of the Communist Party made decisions on state policy, while the soviets acted as a system for public approval of implementing the Party's programme."
     
    S

    sailormoon

    Well-Known Member
    Most French residents have access to cheap public transport. The ones protesting don't look like they can afford to buy a car anyway.
    You obviously don t have a clue about the whole story ... initially the gilets jaunes are motorists who are angry due to the rise of the tax on fuel , the movement is called gilets jaunes because in France it s compulsory to have a yellow vest in your car (you have to wear it in case of an accident and it s yellow fluorescent so you can be seen at night) .

    Anyway we re talking about France and not third world Lebanon ... the high majority of the people can afford to buy a car , have a proper education , go to hospital and travel basically anywhere if they want to. If they re protesting it s because they don t want their country to end up like Lebanon : corrupted with social inequalities and an archaic mindset , ruled by a tiny minority that has all the wealth and a majority that is screwed and that behave like goats saying nothing when the prices are getting higher by the day... but it seems that these things are beyond your logic.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Great way to bypass elected officials. Any leftist nutcase can come up with any nutty leftist law, and if he or she simply gets a small portion of the population to vote for it, they can impose that law on the majority.

    Straight from the soviet books.

    "The Bolsheviks and their allies came out with a program called "soviet government." The soviet system was described as "a higher type of state" and "a higher form of democracy" which would "arouse the masses of the exploited toilers to the task of making new history." Furthermore, it offered "to the oppressed toiling masses the opportunity to participate actively in the free construction of a new society". According to Lenin, the author of these quotations, soviet rule "is nothing else than the organized form of the dictatorship of the proletariat."

    ...

    The soviet system was seen as an alternative to parliamentary systems for administering republican governments.

    ...

    The soviets formed as a grassroots effort to practice direct democracy. Russian Marxists made them a medium for organizing against the state, and in 1917, between the February and October Revolutions, the Petrograd Soviet became a powerful force.

    ...

    In this sense, individual soviets became part of a federal structure...the organs of the Communist Party made decisions on state policy, while the soviets acted as a system for public approval of implementing the Party's programme."
    Who knew, every single US state is communist. (Ballot measures are a form of direct democracy).
    We even voted to keep a gas tax in the midterms.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Who knew, every single US state is communist. (Ballot measures are a form of direct democracy).
    We even voted to keep a gas tax in the midterms.
    Elected officials are involved in those.

    Google translate what Isabella posted.
     
    S

    sailormoon

    Well-Known Member
    I am an immigrant in france making a lot of cash to the government not going to give out what i produce in tax/impots ... so yea they indeed need more
    I am also an immigrant in France ... but dude let s face the truth France and Europe in general cannot afford to bring more immigrants anymore , on the economic level and also on the demographic side.
    Btw immigration brought them more troubles , more people that are living on welfare state (allocs familiales ,rsa, Assédics etc...) than it bought them benefits to their economy.
     
    Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    Great way to bypass elected officials. Any leftist nutcase can come up with any nutty leftist law, and if he or she simply gets a small portion of the population to vote for it, they can impose that law on the majority.

    Straight from the soviet books.

    "The Bolsheviks and their allies came out with a program called "soviet government." The soviet system was described as "a higher type of state" and "a higher form of democracy" which would "arouse the masses of the exploited toilers to the task of making new history." Furthermore, it offered "to the oppressed toiling masses the opportunity to participate actively in the free construction of a new society". According to Lenin, the author of these quotations, soviet rule "is nothing else than the organized form of the dictatorship of the proletariat."

    ...

    The soviet system was seen as an alternative to parliamentary systems for administering republican governments.

    ...

    The soviets formed as a grassroots effort to practice direct democracy. Russian Marxists made them a medium for organizing against the state, and in 1917, between the February and October Revolutions, the Petrograd Soviet became a powerful force.

    ...

    In this sense, individual soviets became part of a federal structure...the organs of the Communist Party made decisions on state policy, while the soviets acted as a system for public approval of implementing the Party's programme."
    It's a referendum allowing people to have a say in laws when it has enough signatures, the same thing was actually suggested by le Pen and melenchon during the elections except the needed signatures were lower, 500000.

    However it's not any leftist nutcase can suggest laws, it's a suggested law or a modification to an existing law that gets approved by 700000 people then put to the assemblée nationale to study and/or modify it but they are compelled to put it to a national referendum a year later.

    I'm not really sure how I feel about this particular suggestion but it's not exactly like the Soviet system, particularly since there won't be masses of people denied voting rights for employing others or benefiting from them economically etc.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    You obviously don t have a clue about the whole story ... initially the gilets jaunes are motorists who are angry due to the rise of the tax on fuel , the movement is called gilets jaunes because in France it s compulsory to have a yellow vest in your car (you have to wear it in case of an accident and it s yellow fluorescent so you can be seen at night) .

    Anyway we re talking about France and not third world Lebanon ... the high majority of the people can afford to buy a car , have a proper education , go to hospital and travel basically anywhere if they want to. If they re protesting it s because they don t want their country to end up like Lebanon : corrupted with social inequalities and an archaic mindset , ruled by a tiny minority that has all the wealth and a majority that is screwed and that behave like goats saying nothing when the prices are getting higher by the day... but it seems that these things are beyond your logic.
    If they want benefits they have to be ready to pay taxes.

    The Gilets Jaunes decided to go on with their protests despite reversal on fuel tax.
    Obviously they just want to make trouble.
    Eza mish 3ejebon el wade3, there are always boats to ferry them back to Africa and the Middle East. Bunch of thugs.
     
    mrsrx

    mrsrx

    Newish Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I am also an immigrant in France ... but dude let s face the truth France and Europe in general cannot afford to bring more immigrants anymore , on the economic level and also on the demographic side.
    Btw immigration brought them more troubles , more people that are living on welfare state (allocs familiales ,rsa, Assédics etc...) than it bought them benefits to their economy.
    I have never said if i am for or against immigration. In general i am for controlled migration and humanitarian asylum.
    But if France's analysis of the economy and projections requires a higher influx then be it and if not they should slow it down. The question is not for or against immigration as i am all for it heck i did it once and going to do it again! Realistically it should be sustainable with good integration programs.
    As for the claim that immigrants are using france as a wellfare state i think you would be surprised to see the numbers ...but i would let the insee or other reliable numbers talk. As for the giletsjaunes immigration is not their issue.
     
    Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    If they want benefits they have to be ready to pay taxes.

    The Gilets Jaunes decided to go on with their protests despite reversal on fuel tax.
    Obviously they just want to make trouble.
    Eza mish 3ejebon el wade3, there are always boats to ferry them back to Africa and the Middle East. Bunch of thugs.
    They want taxes they just want a different kind of tax, we talked about the ISF earlier that macron rolled back, one of their demands is that it gets reinstated.

    Also the vast majority of the French support them! Let's stop pretending they are immigrants!
     
    S

    sailormoon

    Well-Known Member
    If they want benefits they have to be ready to pay taxes.

    The Gilets Jaunes decided to go on with their protests despite reversal on fuel tax.
    Obviously they just want to make trouble.
    Eza mish 3ejebon el wade3, there are always boats to ferry them back to Africa and the Middle East. Bunch of thugs.
    We already pay enormous amount of taxes.
    The tax on fuel was maintained there was no reversal.
    And for your infos most of the gilets jaunes are native French half of them are extreme right sympathizers of Le pen, they re in their country it s more you who can go back to Syria or Lebanon... according to statistics they have the sympathy of 72% of the French
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    It's a referendum allowing people to have a say in laws when it has enough signatures, the same thing was actually suggested by le Pen and melenchon during the elections except the needed signatures were lower, 500000.

    However it's not any leftist nutcase can suggest laws, it's a suggested law or a modification to an existing law that gets approved by 700000 people then put to the assemblée nationale to study and/or modify it but they are compelled to put it to a national referendum a year later.

    I'm not really sure how I feel about this particular suggestion but it's not exactly like the Soviet system, particularly since there won't be masses of people denied voting rights for employing others or benefiting from them economically etc.
    Regular people who go to their office job every day, who run businesses, who raise families, don't have time to read the intricacies of every law in order to vote on them. This is why there are elected officials.

    The only people who will benefit from the suggested system are the radicals and special interest groups who will run campaigns in their circles of activists to gets laws passed, bypassing the officials elected by the majority.

    The fact that they want to lower the voting threshold to get their laws passed should be a huge red flag.

    What is the point of voting in and winning elections, if others can bypass the winning party and pass laws contrary to the latter's agenda?
     
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