The Hezbollah Debate

Indie

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
This thread is for people to discuss Hezbollah and their arms in relation to issues common to all Lebanese. It’s objective is to go beyond the typical "I'm for Hezbollah" partisanship, and "I'm against Hezbollah" fear mongering.

The idea is from a discussion that started in another thread, but since it was taking the other thread off topic, here’s a new one.

I don't want to defend or attack any party or another...as my name implies, I want to remain independent. But simply reading the arguments advanced on this forum...it seems like the only argument some have is "Hezbollah might be nice now, but you never know when they'll turn into an evil entity and force us all to wear veils and grow beards".

Why such paranoiac concern on what might or might not happen in the future when there are so many real issues in the present to be angry about? You're afraid Hezbollah might use their arms to control you in the future? You're already being controlled by people with "no arms" and you don't seem to realize it.

Why is there water and electricity shortages in Lebanon? Because of Hezbollah? Why has our capital's downtown turned into a playground for (mostly outsider) millionaires? Is it because of Hezbollah? Why are there no social services, why is there so much pollution, such disregard for our beautiful nature...why is the middle class disappearing? Is it because of Hezbollah?

You're so focused on what might happen that you have no energy left to revolt against actual issues that exist right now!!!
Hezbollah was created to fill a void left by a corrupt political system. Part of what makes Hezbollah so popular is because they do social outreach outside of their military activities. Now whether or not it is genuine or just a ploy to get more supporters makes no difference. What matters in this argument is that the government is not doing what it's supposed to be doing, so people turn to entities such as Hezbollah. Logically, this would mean that even if Hezbollah was dismantled or destroyed, people would still feel the need to find alternatives to the government...and those alternatives could be much, much worst.

Hezbollah is not the problem...it's the symptom of a problem, that some find pleasant and some hate. For those who hate it...you can try to get rid of the symptom, but if you don't take care of what's causing it, you might end up with worst symptoms.
 
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  • >Watani<

    >Watani<

    أكبر من أن يُبلعْ وأصغر من أن يقسّم
    Orange Room Supporter
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Thank you :)

    I changed the original post a little, so hopefully this will make the thread different from the other ones (which I hadn't seen).
     
    The Jade

    The Jade

    Legendary Member
    The very reason of the presence of Hezbollah has morphed from resisting Israel to fill the void left by an absent state in the shiite regions.

    The second reason can be easily and quickly nulled by the government if it wants to do the job.
    People will not need a social benefactor like Hezbollah to support them if they have all the resources provided to them by the state.
    Nevertheless, Hezbollah's efforts to support its community are highly respectful.

    Concerning the arms, their presence is from one part, related to the first reason "The Void", and from another part to resist Israel.
    The military model set forth by Hezbollah managed to hold against the might of the IDF.

    However, it should not stay in its possession for long.
    Also, its repeated threats to use the weapons on the inside are scaring people.

    Bottom line is, Hezbollah can provide more positive than negative points to the country if it is dealt with in a wise manner.
    That's why I support the FPM in this move (even though sometimes it goes too far).
    The other parties however, prefer to keep the weapons in Hezbollah's possession, it's an argument they use to gather supporters and whether we like it or not it's working.

    Think about it: It's easier to sell an alliance with a guy wearing a tie who's friends with all western countries and doesn't have weapons (at least publicly), than to sell a bearded guy surrounded by thousands of bearded dudes who screams on TV that he wants to behead any person who tries to touch his weapons.
    Or a guy who wants to wipe Israel from the map.


    Hezbollah is better for the country (at least for the moment) than the future movement.

    How to get people to understand and how to get politicians to treat Hezbollah in a good manner is another story
     
    AL_JAMES

    AL_JAMES

    New Member
    i think we should discuss Lebanon history before we discuss the hzib
    i heard from the older people that in the early 50s if you was A7rar you can do any thing you want
    and in the 60s its enough to be Ktaeab to drive spree all over Lebanon and the gmyeal family had rights the average Lebanese cant dream with it
    and in the late 70s you could change your shirt to Lebanese forces shirt to kill with a license
    most of the people now against the hzib because they scared that soon someone will tell them you cant rip off your Lebanese brothers
    Hezbollah
    its the enemy for all the left over from a7rar,ktaeab and lebanese forces not because he chose that but because they chose that
    Hezbollah
    is the enemy for all the thieves in the present government
    i hate the hzib because they will catch me if i rip off my neighbor
    they are so bad because they will protect our dignity
     
    J. Abizeid

    J. Abizeid

    Well-Known Member
    This thread is for people to discuss Hezbollah and their arms in relation to issues common to all Lebanese. It’s objective is to go beyond the typical "I'm for Hezbollah" partisanship, and "I'm against Hezbollah" fear mongering.

    The idea is from a discussion that started in another thread, but since it was taking the other thread off topic, here’s a new one.
    Welcome to the forum Indie,

    We discussed this topic in many threads but since you're new here, the forum Staff approved this thread to motivate you to write more and more threads.

    Please check these threads and how did they end:

    http://forum.tayyar.org/f8/all-hezbollah-related-subjects-thread-35796/

    http://forum.tayyar.org/f8/hezbollah-nightmare-disguise-every-lebanese-so-ecstatic-about-its-weapons-34990/
    Thank you Indie,
    I agree with >Watani<
    I think we need an all new fresh start about this subject that has become the nucleus of Lebanon and possibly the whole Middle East.
    For now let me say this:
    Fasten your seatbelts. It’s going to be a bumpy ride.:scared:
     
    J

    joseph_lubnan

    Legendary Member
    Once upon a time, long long ago (20th April 2008) I wrote this post http://forum.tayyar.org/f8/all-hezbollah-related-subjects-thread-35796/index7.html#post750439. Today I really do not care too much about this topic. I just had reproduce this post for the sake of old times, a walk on memory lane perhaps... :)

    Indie, welcome to the forum, and may you have a blast!

    Here is an updated version of the post above:
    [FIELDSET="joseph_lubnan"]The issue of Hezbollah's arms is a matter of principle

    Some believe that the arms are no longer necessary from a pure Lebanese perspective. They believe that in fact today the arms are a negative influence on the stability of the borders and Lebanon's ability to create and benefit from a neutral environment to protect itself as the middle east crisis continues to evolve. Some believe that the Shebaa farms are simply an excuse, that the prisoners issue could have been resolved over time with other means and with calmer rhetoric much like everyone is dealing with the Syrian prisoners issue. Some have suspicions that Hezbollah's insistence on maintaining its arms doesn't only emanate from its desire to protect itself, in fact it is primarily driven by its desire to use these weapons for a broader regional goal that keeps the prospects of an open front in the south of Lebanon a reality for the benefit of regional players such as Iran, Syria and Hamas (this suspicion was proven a fact by many direct recent statements from the Iranian leadership on this issue). Some believe that Hezbollah's weapons, may very well be used at some point in time for internal reasons, and they believe that political parties should not control militias and have arms that it can leverage politically, and internally, even if it doesn't ever use them (again a point proven without doubt by Hezbollah's recent action in Beirut and the Mountain, and by its constant threats and weapons-bolstered political intimidation). Some believe that Hezbollah is very interested in an Islamic Shiite state that transcends the borders of Lebanon and fear that one day It may use its arms to forward that goal (again this point was made abundantly clear in the 80's by Hezbollah's first manifesto, and not rejected in its second manifesto). Some believe that peace and war in their country is an important matter that they should have a say in and are never willing to farm it out to one group, one sect, or one militia. These same people believe that appeasing HA is not the answer. They also believe that going to war with Hezbollah is not the answer either. They believe that isolating HA politically, and dealing with the matter of arms on the basis of strong principles and not on the basis of weak capitulation is the right way forward.

    Back in the day, General Michel Aoun used to be one of these people... Today he is not, and his and FPM's recent stances and statements paint him clearly as a Hezbollah apologist... Most people aren't suggesting disarming Hezbollah by force, they simply do not agree with FPM's self-serving de facto capitulation in the form of a marketing tool - the MOU.[/FIELDSET]
     
    Ashrafieh_LF

    Ashrafieh_LF

    Well-Known Member
    HA is a Syrian/Iranian tool to fight Israel through Lebanon with minimum damage to Syrian and Iranian lands and infrastructure.
     
    TTT1

    TTT1

    Well-Known Member
    HA is a Syrian/Iranian tool to fight Israel through Lebanon with minimum damage to Syrian and Iranian lands and infrastructure.
    This is the typical bla bla bla ....
    HA arms and HA by itslef started as a resistance to Israel and continued to do so with the successes we have seen in 2000 and 2006 (yes, it was a success).
    HOWEVER, for me, TODAY, HA arms is the ONLY card Lebanon has to fight Palestinian settlements (interesting to see how Geagea and allies can fight this knowing the international consensus on it. But then again they don't care as their aim is to divide....). The day in 1,10 or 100 years we will sit for Peace agreement , we need to be strong as we have nothing to offer Israel or the US....
    HA arms is the only real balance toward the Palesitians arms too. And shall I remind my fellow christians LFers and Kataebis how the 1975 war started???
    Finally, all the hypes against HA arms are for me not justified. I am NOT at all scared from them nor from HA changing our lifestyles (how stupid). I would be more concerned from Al Qaeda like organization and from Saudi like extremism....
    And last but not least, as a christian , I am 100% confident that HA will never turn its arms internally. AND please forumers, don't open the subject of May 7 as this was a whole different story......
     
    J. Abizeid

    J. Abizeid

    Well-Known Member
    HA is a Syrian/Iranian tool to fight Israel through Lebanon with minimum damage to Syrian and Iranian lands and infrastructure.
    You sound like a broken record from Old East Beirut…
    Here is the most accurate and neutral description about Hezbollah coming from a Jewish American political scientist and author whose primary fields of research are the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the politics of the Holocaust.
    If this man can understand the Hezbollah legacy, I don’t see why the rest of the Lebanese can’t. It must be either ignorance or hypocrisy unless someone can prove something else.
    [vbtube]bDe65-nF3FQ&feature=related[/vbtube]
     
    kappa273

    kappa273

    Well-Known Member
    regardless how many times the subject is brought, it will always remain a good debate and discussion..

    simply, because it is at the center of the lebanese, regional and even international issues..

    HA is keeping its weapons for many reasons, local and regional..

    at the local level.. the shiite community will hold to those weapons for several reasons:
    1- israeli aggression
    2- fear from palestinian naturalization
    3- fear from hariri and sunni dominination

    1- since 1948, the israeli army had regular incursions into lebanese territories, occasionally under the pretext of fighting PLO and on several occasions, simply to harass people. in addition, the late years have pushed the shiites to get attached every more to the weapons because of the terror equilibrium between HA nad israel..

    2- the palestinian naturalization has always been on the front burner since before the civil war... from the Cairo agreement of 1969 to the famous "road of Palestine passes by Jounieh" to the so-called Kissinger plan to the frequent questionable plans from Hariri's Qrayyeh to trying to depopulate the south.. right now, it is obvious that the weapons of HA is the last thing preventing those palestinians from becoming full blown lebanese..
    the C&R bloc, Walid Jounblatt bloc voice will be unheard if the decision is taken by hariri to naturalize them...

    3- the overall regional situation doesn't encourage the shiite to relinquish such an advantage... from teh sectarian jordanian and egyptian interferences in lebanese politics to Jouzou daily ranting on public TV... in addition, just take a look at the way Christians are being treated by Hariri and his lackeys... Hariri gives daily examples of what kind of country he is trying to rule...
    his ideal country seems to be built on clientelism, nepotism, corruption and dictatorship... of course, the shiites will be sent once again to the back rows, the same way they were treated before; hence, SHN famous quote :"shiites won't be shining shoes anymore"

    you may argue that other points are the establishment of the Islamic republic or a dictatorship, etc...
    time has proven that these mottos held in 1983 are not applicable anymore. actually the latest manifesto refutes those old goals...
    as said several times by no one other than SHN and the 2nd in command, the islamic republic can't survive in lebanon by force, it needs to be the choice of the population, ie. democratically decided...

    as for the use of hte weapons internally, it only happened as a reaction to a hariri aggression.. the may 7 events happened only because Hariri tried to dismantle the communication network, apparently paramount to the military activities of the resistance...

    another argument may be simply that weapons outside the control of the armed forces is illegal..

    this is absolutely correct but where are the armed forces... the lebanese army cannot protect lebanon against israeli aggressions.. the lebanese army is driven by politicians; therefore, we saw the army marginally involved in 2006 war...
    what about the ISF and Fer3 al ma3loumet... how different is fer3 el ma3loumet from a regular militia?
    at least HA has an aim proven over and over again, fighting israel and keeping a certain internal equilibrium...
    what has fer3 el ma3loumet done so far? harassing people, breaking the law, providing false witnesses to the STL, ties with terrorists, etc..
    they stopped few israeli spies, but their actions are more reminiscent of Geagea's militia during the war rather than an official respectful institution.


    definitely, this is a very long topic and I can keep going on..
    but to be brief..
    would I like to see HA unarmed? definitely, but right now, I am benefiting a lot from those weapons: Israeli equilibrium, Hariri kept in check, palestinians kept in limbo..

    am i afraid they are going to be used against me in the future? history has proven that HA is highly organized, truthful and honest. u reap what u sow with dealing with HA

    kappa
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Thank you Indie
    I've seen that video you posted. Thanks for sharing it here! *Fastens seatbelt*

    Indie, welcome to the forum, and may you have a blast!
    Thank you!

    And thanks everyone else for participating…I don’t know if it’s possible to reply to everything…

    But I have a couple of questions for those who don’t trust Hezbollah’s arms…do you trust Israel not to take advantage of a Lebanon without Hezbollah and their arms (especially with the current state of the army)?

    Also, what do you think of the responsibility of other politicians, who with their corruption, make Hezbollah so popular?
     
    I

    ilovesamirgeagea

    New Member
    am not gonna repeat the same opinion again that you all already know about HA.

    we all agree that HA is strong and can defend lebanon against an israeli aggression but were we differ with HA is to what extent are we willing to stay in war for that matter and the problem of having HA armed even when there is no war with israel and using it during time of peace to have influence on the government process and on the democratic process.

    from 2006 until today we haven't had one katioucha on israel and we can maybe wait for 2026 until there is a war with israel and maybe there will never be?

    if HA wanted just to defend lebanon why ask to be in the government? let the government rule and HA defend lebanon in the south against an israeli invasion... but why do we need HA controlling every part of the political game in lebanon?

    HA excuse for having arms will never end until israel cease to exist. and israel will always exist so HA arms will always have an excuse to be there and we will never become an normal state.

    lebanon will always live in the threat of one day waking up in a war because ahmadi najat wants to send a message to the USA or maybe like we woke up in 2006 HA decides to kidnap and kill israeli soldiers...

    This is our problem with the situation of HA it is like saying to all the lebanese people you will never have the chance to live in peace not even in twenty years . your children will always have to live under HA rules because they have the arms to defend lebanon from the big bad israeli enemy. this excuse is eternal and is providing HA the power to control lebanon forever since israel threat will never cease to exist.
     
    AL_JAMES

    AL_JAMES

    New Member
    am not gonna repeat the same opinion again that you all already know about HA.

    we all agree that HA is strong and can defend lebanon against an israeli aggression but were we differ with HA is to what extent are we willing to stay in war for that matter and the problem of having HA armed even when there is no war with israel and using it during time of peace to have influence on the government process and on the democratic process.

    from 2006 until today we haven't had one katioucha on israel and we can maybe wait for 2026 until there is a war with israel and maybe there will never be?

    if HA wanted just to defend lebanon why ask to be in the government? let the government rule and HA defend lebanon in the south against an israeli invasion... but why do we need HA controlling every part of the political game in lebanon?

    HA excuse for having arms will never end until israel cease to exist. and israel will always exist so HA arms will always have an excuse to be there and we will never become an normal state.

    lebanon will always live in the threat of one day waking up in a war because ahmadi najat wants to send a message to the USA or maybe like we woke up in 2006 HA decides to kidnap and kill israeli soldiers...

    This is our problem with the situation of HA it is like saying to all the lebanese people you will never have the chance to live in peace not even in twenty years . your children will always have to live under HA rules because they have the arms to defend lebanon from the big bad israeli enemy. this excuse is eternal and is providing HA the power to control lebanon forever since israel threat will never cease to exist.
    so you are asking the hzib to stay in the south to defend Lebanon from any Israeli aggression and keep the government for the Lebanese forces and the FMers to continue stealing us
    good suggestion
    my question
    ate you going to send them food supplies ? or the hell no let them farm their land and once a while we send them some meat
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    to what extent are we willing to stay in war for that matter and the problem of having HA armed even when there is no war with israel
    How do you know Israel will not find a way to attack again? You can more easily envision Hezbollah attacking its own compatriots, than Israel a country they‘re not particularly fond of? This is like saying you trust Israel more than you trust Hezbollah.

    …and using it during time of peace to have influence on the government process and on the democratic process.
    How are they using their weapons to hinder the democratic process?

    from 2006 until today we haven't had one katioucha on israel and we can maybe wait for 2026 until there is a war with israel and maybe there will never be?
    How come you can give the benefit of the doubt to Israel, but not Hezbollah? It seems like you’re saying “Maybe Israel will leave us alone now…but Hezbollah…that’s another story…for sure they’re going to do something horrible to us!”

    if HA wanted just to defend lebanon why ask to be in the government? let the government rule and HA defend lebanon in the south against an israeli invasion... but why do we need HA controlling every part of the political game in lebanon?
    Earlier you mentioned democracy. If people vote for Hezbollah to be in the government, that’s their democratic right to do so. And how is Hezbollah controlling every part of the political game?

    HA excuse for having arms will never end until israel cease to exist. and israel will always exist so HA arms will always have an excuse to be there and we will never become an normal state.
    We don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, there are so many factors that could influence the course of history…but we do know the problems Lebanon is facing right now and politicians aren’t really doing anything about them. Why are you not angry at that? You prefer to worry about the uncertain future than demand accountability on current issues?

    lebanon will always live in the threat of one day waking up in a war because ahmadi najat wants to send a message to the USA
    When was the last time Iran attacked anyone or went to war for reasons other than self-defence?

    or maybe like we woke up in 2006 HA decides to kidnap and kill israeli soldiers...
    Isn’t there a debate as to where exactly the Israeli soldiers were when they were taken hostage? Some sources state they were on Lebanese soil. Also, Hassan Nasrallah stated, that had he known things would escalate to the degree they did, Hezbollah would not have carried on with the hostage taking. Can you at least give him credit for not being stupidly stubborn like many politicians around the world who would stick by their mistakes no matter how disastrous they were?

    This is our problem with the situation of HA it is like saying to all the lebanese people you will never have the chance to live in peace not even in twenty years . your children will always have to live under HA rules because they have the arms to defend lebanon from the big bad israeli enemy. this excuse is eternal and is providing HA the power to control lebanon forever since israel threat will never cease to exist.
    I don’t see how Hezbollah has more control over Lebanon than some other parties. It seems like their arms makes it possible for them to be level with other parties, without which their community would not have much of a voice.

    If what they want is to take over Lebanon, as you claim, what are they waiting for? If they wanted to take over the government by force why haven’t they done so already?
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I just want to add that like everyone else, I wouldn't like it if your worst fears came true and Lebanon turned into Iran (lack of democracy etc.) but I also don't want it turned into Dubai. So don't think that I would blindly support everything Hezbollah does. It's just that in the current situation, I don't see how they're wronging the Lebanese. And I find it curious that people would bash them, yet applaud others who implement and support policies harmful to the country and it's people.
     
    Julito

    Julito

    Active Member
    some have money deprived of dignity and some have dignity with arms attached to it...it balances out..
     
    Abufijli

    Abufijli

    Well-Known Member
    am i afraid they are going to be used against me in the future? history has proven that HA is highly organized, truthful and honest. u reap what u sow with dealing with HA

    kappa
    This is a very important point you make. The only people fearful of its weapons are the people who are working on helping Israel in disarming it. Thats the reason for their fear, they know that if they are unsuccessful HA will come after them. So they should.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    ........problem of having HA armed even when there is no war with israel .........
    When exactly was there no war with Israel? You call the present times a peace time?

    Israel is daily threatening to attack Lebanon, not HA, Lebanon, and getting equipped and trained for that, and you chose this moment to call it "peace time" and ask for the disarmament of the only force we have that can repel Israel?

    Ever asked yourself why Israel still did not attack or try to occupy Lebanon since 2006?

    Do you honestly believe that it's just out of their goodwill and not because there is a heavy price for them to pay?

    Today, the only thing in that galaxy that is making Israel afraid to attack Lebanon, is the resistance. Prove me wrong, can you?
     
    abou3adal

    abou3adal

    Member
    at the local level.. the shiite community will hold to those weapons for several reasons:
    1- israeli aggression
    2- fear from palestinian naturalization
    3- fear from hariri and sunni dominination



    as for the use of hte weapons internally, it only happened as a reaction to a hariri aggression.. the may 7 events happened only because Hariri tried to dismantle the communication network, apparently paramount to the military activities of the resistance...


    this is absolutely correct but where are the armed forces... the lebanese army cannot protect lebanon against israeli aggressions.. the lebanese army is driven by politicians; therefore, we saw the army marginally involved in 2006 war...

    at least HA has an aim proven over and over again, fighting israel and keeping a certain internal equilibrium...

    what has fer3 el ma3loumet done so far? harassing people, breaking the law, providing false witnesses to the STL, ties with terrorists, etc..
    they stopped few israeli spies, but their actions are more reminiscent of Geagea's militia during the war rather than an official respectful institution.


    definitely, this is a very long topic and I can keep going on..
    but to be brief..
    would I like to see HA unarmed? definitely, but right now, I am benefiting a lot from those weapons: Israeli equilibrium, Hariri kept in check, palestinians kept in limbo..



    kappa
    the reason israeli has a problem with lebanon is because of the hezb. no hezb, no prob, peace.
     
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