The Illegal National Pact, the Taef Accord and the Roadmap towards Uprooting the Confessional System and Implementing a Civil State

Rafidi

Legendary Member
And Berri is proposing something that would end his career?

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End his career? He is one leg in and one leg out of this life. I'm not wishing him death because it is in God's hand. He may live even longer than us, who knows? But what I am saying, is the fact that Berri has already achieved a lot. He isnt scared of ending his career. He may want to leave behind a good legacy. Who knows? Besides, as far as what he is calling for is in the interesting of the people, I dont really care what you think.
 

SeaAb

Legendary Member
Staff member
Super Penguin
End his career? He is one leg in and one leg out of this life. I'm not wishing him death because it is in God's hand. He may live even longer than us, who knows? But what I am saying, is the fact that Berri has already achieved a lot. He isnt scared of ending his career. He may want to leave behind a good legacy. Who knows? Besides, as far as what he is calling for is in the interesting of the people, I dont really care what you think.
Epic. Lak 7atta Randa mana met2ammle fi hal 2ad. :lol:
 

CitizenOfTheRepublic

Legendary Member
Heck. Can you have secularism when the first thing two Lebanese who just met ask each other after their names is from which region they come (because they can't bluntly ask what their sect)?

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A successful system doesn’t ignore the characteristics of the electorates it acknowledges them and channels them toward the greater good. Putting a secular system on top of a sectarian electorate is as stupid as can be.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
A successful system doesn’t ignore the characteristics of the electorates it acknowledges them and channels them toward the greater good. Putting a secular system on top of a sectarian electorate is as stupid as can be.
We need a roadmap.

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Rafidi

Legendary Member
turkey is a secular state but secularism is not just on paper, it should be in the minds first then written on paper to confirm what the minds think

That's more like the issue, people are not secular, then the state will never become secular no matter what you write in the constitution, you need to change the minds first. Turkey wrote on paper that it is a secular state yet they teach islam in schools and it is mandatory, their minds are not secular, the same happens in Lebanon, they are not secular but at least nobody pretends it is.

I think this argument, often repeated by Maronite smart @$$e$, from your politicians to your clerics,about instilling secularism or removing sectarianism "from the minds first" is just a lame excuse to avoid reform of the apartheid system and to bring something better, where all Lebanese are free. By enforcing an apartheid system, you are telling me I am your enemy and holding me captive even though not explicitly.

I've stated this time and again that we are not really religious people. Many curse God, many dont pray or fast etc. Many smoke and drink. This is from all religion. But we are at the same time fanatical about sectarianism because everything in the country is divided along sectarian lines. Even though the individual doesnt abide by his faith, he feels compelled to identify to it because he has been given a label from birth and everything is sectarianized and the system is imposed in the same spirit.

How can you tell if/when people's minds are clear of sectarianism? Is there any medical examination to determine that? Any scientific method to tell? When are we reaching that stage? What can we do to reach that stage?

This excuse is exactly like a tyrant refusing to implement a democratic system and hand over power to an elected govt. because he thinks many, most or a high number of his people are criminals and they dont behave in a civil way. So he thinks it is right to have a tyrannical dictatorship in place because his people dont deserve democracy. In other words, this lame argument is only in a bid to deny people their inalienable rights. And the Maronites and their elites in particular are in this business since independence because the current apartheid system gives them undue advantages and privileges. Power can be shared in a diverse country, but not by having such a system that discriminates along sectarian lines and monopolizes state posts. I dont mind if when the president is Christian, the Vice is Muslim, or when the president is Muslim, the vice is Christian and doing this arrangement in all posts and alternating the posts every 4 or 8 years. But what we have is not power sharing. It was a power grab and others are acting in the same spirit and everyone wants to monopolize certain posts. This is retarded.

So you think people are sectarian and I believe you agree sectarianism and the present apartheid system are retrogressive and uncivilized and racist, but you want a sectarian system imposed or to remain. This system was imposed by the way not because people were sectarian, but because the Maronite junta since independence wanted to outsmart others. That is the naked truth even though many of us turn a blind eye and pretend we are not aware. Do you feel good that your elite are the progenitor of such racist system? The system was not imposed because people were sectarian from the onset. It was designed to give a segment undue advantages, which even their ordinary followers dont enjoy from the Maronite sect. How is the average Lebanese Christian better than a Jordanian Christian? How has this system made life better for the people? If someone has cholera, will you give him clean water and food to consume to help him recuperate or would you say he is sick, he doesn't deserve healthy food, so let's continue to give him dirty water from the gutters? What sort of logic is this? There is sickness and we need a cure. You dont use the sickness as excuses not to have the cure. A sickness requires a cure.

How will maintaining a racist, discriminatory, apartheid, backward,and retrogressive sectarian regime help in making people less sectarian "in their minds"? If you want to make people less sectarian and less agitated by sectarianism, you uproot anything sectarian. You remove the cancer, which in our case is the regime.

And by the way, since you mentioned Turkey and the teaching of religion in schools, you can study religion or theology in schools even in western countries and you can also study about macro evolution or abiogenesis. Hijab is not compulsory and religion is not compulsory. A secular system makes choice or freedom to choose obligatory. It means nothing is imposed. You can drink beer or drink zam zam. It is all the choice of the individual person. You are not seeking a secular system to promote or impose atheism or any form of belief system, for example. A secular system is meant to put the religions aside and focus on the human being and his right to be free to choose whatever he feels like. That this is freedom you do not want to give people.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
We need a roadmap.

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There is no roadmap. There are excuses. They will keep telling you to first remove sectarianism from people's minds. Because they know there is no way to determine if it is actually in people's mind. It is a perception or a subjective idea or opinion they give. And they use that to sustain the sickness and prevent its cure.

To have one man, one vote (which we dont have and they are opposed to it) and a fair system, they want you to stop to be Muslim. That is the implied racist message.

This isnt a power sharing. Power sharing means let us agree to have a Muslim president for 8 years and a Christian president for another 8. And one or two or three vice presidents from other sects, and let people vote for their leaders. What we have is anything but power sharing. Call it power monopoly, power grab etc. Everyone is monopolizing posts for himself in the name of the sect or religion. All of them are thieves.

In fact sectarian warlords from all sects dont find such a reformation attractive. Each warlord wants to act as a kingmaker or mini god. The current regime supports the sectarian warlords and steals the rights and power from the people.
 
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Danny Z

Legendary Member
I think this argument, often repeated by Maronite smart @$$e$, from your politicians to your clerics,
I stopped here, you are talking to the wrong person as I have no clerics of my own, If you are talking to me then show some respect if you want me to bother reading your post
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
There is no roadmap. There are excuses. They will keep telling you to first remove sectarianism from people's minds. Because they know there is no way to determine if it is actually in people's mind. It is a perception or a subjective idea or opinion they give. And they use that to sustain the sickness and prevent its cure.

To have one man, one vote (which we dont have and they are opposed to it) and a fair system, they want you to stop to be Muslim. That is the implied racist message.

This isnt a power sharing. Power sharing means let us agree to have a Muslim president for 8 years and a Christian president for another 8. And one or two or three vice presidents from other sects, and let people vote for their leaders. What we have is anything but power sharing. Call it power monopoly, power grab etc. Everyone is monopolizing posts for himself in the name of the sect or religion. All of them are thieves.

In fact sectarian warlords from all sects dont find such a reformation attractive. Each warlord wants to act as a kingmaker or mini god. The current regime supports the sectarian warlords and steals the rights and power from the people.
No one will give up on his privileged willingly. Christians miss the time they were in charge, they aren't going to give up on more privileges. What they want us to be in charge again, and considering how the country went from a modern country to a valueless shithole that no one in the civilized world cares about after they lost their power, I can't blame them.

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agnostic

Legendary Member
No one will give up on his privileged willingly. Christians miss the time they were in charge, they aren't going to give up on more privileges. What they want us to be in charge again, and considering how the country went from a modern country to a valueless shithole that no one in the civilized world cares about after they lost their power, I can't blame them.
You are quite good propagandist.

Pity that your propaganda is often to create division between the Lebanese.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
No one will give up on his privileged willingly. Christians miss the time they were in charge, they aren't going to give up on more privileges. What they want us to be in charge again, and considering how the country went from a modern country to a valueless shithole that no one in the civilized world cares about after they lost their power, I can't blame them.

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There shouldn't be any undue privileges for anyone. Privileges for the citizens should be equally beneficial and all citizens must have equal rights.

If the privileges are undue then this is oppression. The reason we have a sectarian jungle.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
There shouldn't be any undue privileges for anyone. Privileges for the citizens should be equally beneficial and all citizens must have equal rights.

If the privileges are undue then this is oppression. The reason we have a sectarian jungle.
Privileges, democracy, dictatorship, I don't care about any of this. I only cares about who can fight corruption and modernize the country, even if we need a dictator for that, so be it.

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Rafidi

Legendary Member
Privileges, democracy, dictatorship, I don't care about any of this. I only cares about who can fight corruption and modernize the country, even if we need a dictator for that, so be it.

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You cant modernize the country and fight corruption when there's a retarded system in place based on tribal divisions and discrimination and backward mentality. The foundation is rotten. Everyone is trying to grab power.

If for example you have two mega parties like the Republicans and Democrats, you will automatically see Lebanese unite. You will find Lebanese from all sects in both parties. The parties can file candidates from all sects. All posts should be rotated. Basically, this is a reformation of the current system and not even uprooting it. The rights of all sects will still be respected and everyone will have a place in governance. You cant have a Muslim president and a muslim VP or Muslim PM. All posts should be rotated. Presently everyone is seeking to grab power and posts and monopolize them. The reason I staunchly supported the call for the MoF to be the reserve for the Shia. It's a sectarian jungle. Everyone wants a slice.
 
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