The Lebanese Christians Curse: their leaders Mediocrity

Resistancefrom89

Well-Known Member
Beind the descendant of whoever preceded us on this land of what we call our Christian fathers, it is quite importnant to evaluate where we stand today as Christians and realise what is awaiting us.

While it is a fact that we have been always as Christians in compeition for this Land with the many other groups who have settled here, from Druze, Shia and Sunni, and while this competition is today a great severe danger , one can not but recognise the complete lack of competent Christian leaders.

Actually we are witnessing an actual mediocrity of Christian leaders, that may change the complete landscape of Christian presence in Lebanon

Picking the so called actual Christian leaders names that come to mind:
  • Michael Aoun: A power hungry selfish dangerous maniac
  • Samir Geagea: A criminal butcher and ex-convict, head of a clan
  • Sleiman Freiji: A deranged dangerous Mafiosi head of a tribe
In addition the maronite Church is led by a week personally, corrupt and incompetent person

With all the changes happening around us, with Christians presence being extinguished in Irak and Syria in less then a decade, the Christians in Lebanon are facing a very imminent dark future...

Where and how can salvation be...?
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Beind the descendant of whoever preceded us on this land of what we call our Christian fathers, it is quite importnant to evaluate where we stand today as Christians and realise what is awaiting us.

While it is a fact that we have been always as Christians in compeition for this Land with the many other groups who have settled here, from Druze, Shia and Sunni, and while this competition is today a great severe danger , one can not but recognise the complete lack of competent Christian leaders.

Actually we are witnessing an actual mediocrity of Christian leaders, that may change the complete landscape of Christian presence in Lebanon

Picking the so called actual Christian leaders names that come to mind:
  • Michael Aoun: A power hungry selfish dangerous maniac
  • Samir Geagea: A criminal butcher and ex-convict, head of a clan
  • Sleiman Freiji: A deranged dangerous Mafiosi head of a tribe
In addition the maronite Church is led by a week personally, corrupt and incompetent person

With all the changes happening around us, with Christians presence being extinguished in Irak and Syria in less then a decade, the Christians in Lebanon are facing a very imminent dark future...

Where and how can salvation be...?

Very well said.
probably the right path to do is look at our southern borders, see what the jews have done and imitate them at the national level not the christian level, because although I am a proud Christian I have a strong Lebanese feeling inside.

Those jews have gathered from many places in the world and they built their country despite all the challenges around them.
We might not like them but they have made something for themselves that is worth looking into.
You can't have corrupt leaders in such community and expect to survive in such region.
Actually they survived because the communities around them are corrupt and they exploited this to the maximum.
There are no amount of western aid that could have helped them if they had corrupt politicians as their leaders.

Americans had this experience before with the Chinese in the 40s, they have supported Chiang Kai-shek against the communists and the japanese, but it turned out that he is too much corrupt and eventually they dropped him. The following is from wiki
"(American military adviser, General Joseph) Stilwell was infuriated also by the rampant corruption of the Chiang regime. In his diary, which he faithfully kept, Stilwell began to note the corruption and the amount of money ($380,584,000 in 1944 dollars) being wasted upon the procrastinating Chiang and his government. "

So bottom line, no one will help you if you are corrupt.
You won't give you brother money to help his family if he will waste them on alcohol and prostitutes.
Unfortunately in Lebanon we are still waiting for someone clean to show up.
At one time we hoped it will be Aoun but he appeared to be corrupt to the teeth, that even his daughter and son-in-law are exchanging accusations in public (something that never happened before).
 
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Rafidi

Legendary Member
Beind the descendant of whoever preceded us on this land of what we call our Christian fathers, it is quite importnant to evaluate where we stand today as Christians and realise what is awaiting us.

While it is a fact that we have been always as Christians in compeition for this Land with the many other groups who have settled here, from Druze, Shia and Sunni, and while this competition is today a great severe danger , one can not but recognise the complete lack of competent Christian leaders.

Actually we are witnessing an actual mediocrity of Christian leaders, that may change the complete landscape of Christian presence in Lebanon

Picking the so called actual Christian leaders names that come to mind:
  • Michael Aoun: A power hungry selfish dangerous maniac
  • Samir Geagea: A criminal butcher and ex-convict, head of a clan
  • Sleiman Freiji: A deranged dangerous Mafiosi head of a tribe
In addition the maronite Church is led by a week personally, corrupt and incompetent person

With all the changes happening around us, with Christians presence being extinguished in Irak and Syria in less then a decade, the Christians in Lebanon are facing a very imminent dark future...

Where and how can salvation be...?

First, let me correct a perception I can sense from the wording of your post. The perception that others have settled. The perception that others are competing with you for the land or you with "settlers". These are also partly the case for you, even more true about you, both you and your forefathers. Many of you came from another land, distant or far to settle here and seek refugee or better opportunity, provision, refuge or treatment. You came from Syria, Egypt and beyond. Similarly, you have competed with others and even taken over what had belonged to others e.g. Jezzine, Jbeil/Keserwan. Your presence here both as settlers and indigenous people is shared by all the other groups. Meaning that within the same sect you find both the settlers and the original inhabitants. For the fact that Christianity or its prevalence predated Islam does not give you as people an edge over others who identify as Muslim. The ancestors of those who identify as Muslim Lebanese could as well have been Christians or even adherents of paganism, which preceded Christianity in Lebanon.

This quest for Christians to be treated differently or given special or preferential treatment or to have privileges none others enjoy is what has impeded the transition to statehood. You have to learn how to live just like others. Move on. The clock wont stop ticking for your sake. Times will continue to change. Everyone will have to choose some day, and maybe sooner than later, between remaining in the past as a small isolated feudal group that will continue to lose influence over time and becoming equal and full citizens irrespective of their religious affiliation. The earlier we transition into statehood and have a country that treats everyone fairly and equally, the less headache, pains and suffering for all.
 

Resistancefrom89

Well-Known Member
First, let me correct a perception I can sense from the wording of your post. The perception that others have settled. The perception that others are competing with you for the land or you with "settlers". These are also partly the case for you, even more true about you, both you and your forefathers. Many of you came from another land, distant or far to settle here and seek refugee or better opportunity, provision, refuge or treatment. You came from Syria, Egypt and beyond. Similarly, you have competed with others and even taken over what had belonged to others e.g. Jezzine, Jbeil/Keserwan. Your presence here both as settlers and indigenous people is shared by all the other groups. Meaning that within the same sect you find both the settlers and the original inhabitants. For the fact that Christianity or its prevalence predated Islam does not give you as people an edge over others who identify as Muslim. The ancestors of those who identify as Muslim Lebanese could as well have been Christians or even adherents of paganism, which preceded Christianity in Lebanon.

This quest for Christians to be treated differently or given special or preferential treatment or to have privileges none others enjoy is what has impeded the transition to statehood. You have to learn how to live just like others. Move on. The clock wont stop ticking for your sake. Times will continue to change. Everyone will have to choose some day, and maybe sooner than later, between remaining in the past as a small isolated feudal group that will continue to lose influence over time and becoming equal and full citizens irrespective of their religious affiliation. The earlier we transition into statehood and have a country that treats everyone fairly and equally, the less headache, pains and suffering for all.

Agree that we are all settlers on this planet earth, and I like your vision of building a state where all would be equal.

However we have experienced in the region where we live that Islam and the notion of state in the European sens are "orthogonal", i.e. incoherent. Even in Europe where we have already a functional state, we have a huge problem with muslim immigrants who have big times to adapt to a secular state.
So unfortunately this is not for the next century in Lebanon, and for us Christian who are a minority in this see of muslim, we have to think about ourselves and find a construct that allows us to florish for the next 1000 years. We have done it now for 2000 years, we should be able to reinvent ourselves.
 

Resistancefrom89

Well-Known Member
Very well said.
probably the right path to do is look at our southern borders, see what the jews have done and imitate them at the national level not the christian level, because although I am a proud Christian I have a strong Lebanese feeling inside.

Those jews have gathered from many places in the world and they built their country despite all the challenges around them.
We might not like them but they have made something for themselves that is worth looking into.
You can't have corrupt leaders in such community and expect to survive in such region.
Actually they survived because the communities around them are corrupt and they exploited this to the maximum.
There are no amount of western aid that could have helped them if they had corrupt politicians as their leaders.

Americans had this experience before with the Chinese in the 40s, they have supported Chiang Kai-shek against the communists and the japanese, but it turned out that he is too much corrupt and eventually they dropped him. The following is from wiki
"(American military adviser, General Joseph) Stilwell was infuriated also by the rampant corruption of the Chiang regime. In his diary, which he faithfully kept, Stilwell began to note the corruption and the amount of money ($380,584,000 in 1944 dollars) being wasted upon the procrastinating Chiang and his government. "

So bottom line, no one will help you if you are corrupt.
You won't give you brother money to help his family if he will waste them on alcohol and prostitutes.
Unfortunately in Lebanon we are still waiting for someone clean to show up.
At one time we hoped it will be Aoun but he appeared to be corrupt to the teeth, that even his daughter and son-in-law are exchanging accusations in public (something that never happened before).

The Jewish state is a potential example but maybe the state itself as I believe the notion of mixing religion and state is not part of our Christian religion (While Jewish have historical Kingdom that they are trying to restore, and their books talks about a Jewish land), but what is something to copy is how they act as community versus the Lebanese christians and specially who are extremely individualistic...

The Ego of the Maronites are their biggest problems... We probably need to teach our kids that ego is the biggest enemy
 

Walidos

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The Jewish state is a potential example but maybe the state itself as I believe the notion of mixing religion and state is not part of our Christian religion (While Jewish have historical Kingdom that they are trying to restore, and their books talks about a Jewish land), but what is something to copy is how they act as community versus the Lebanese christians and specially who are extremely individualistic...

The Ego of the Maronites are their biggest problems... We probably need to teach our kids that ego is the biggest enemy
Ego of the maronites alone? Leish Sunnis, shiites, Druze and atheists (including orthodox :p) min Shou byishko?
I think the ego of all lebanese is a problem. Also the backstabbing, putting religion ahead of citizenship and thus siding with foreigners against compatriots and the rule of law are equally big issues
 

NAFAR

Legendary Member
The worst historical mistake of Christians is that when they were given the opportunity to establish a predominant majority Christian country they missed it and they went to the alternative greater Lebanon where they immediately dropped form 85% to 55%.....and you know the rest of the story.

At present, the best solution is complete separation from Muslims even if the Christians state will be only 30% of the current Lebanon.
If Christians are united they can form as strong state stretching from Zgharta/Bchary/ Cedras mountains/Deir el Ahamar until Beirut Damascus road and from seashores until the western mountains chain peaks including Zahly.

Since complete separation and creating a new country is not possible politically on the international level, Christians only remaining hope is federalism (or Con-federalism if the opportunity is available).

Federalism can be achieved thru constitution and from within the state institutions, especially that Taef called for decentralization.

However, knowing the political Islam ultimate target of controlling the complete country and expelling Christians or at best transforming them to "Ahl Zemma" they won't accept federalism which will leave Christians with the only available solution to adopt defacto federalism from one side.

Christians must start preparations on all levels to declare federalism from one side, and they better be well prepared for the political Islam reaction.

The current Christians so-called leaders are not up to the task, and new leaders with enough courage to call for federalism must emerge; Najy Hayek and Zyad Asswad are good examples that can lead such a movement.
 
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Rafidi

Legendary Member
Agree that we are all settlers on this planet earth, and I like your vision of building a state where all would be equal.

However we have experienced in the region where we live that Islam and the notion of state in the European sens are "orthogonal", i.e. incoherent. Even in Europe where we have already a functional state, we have a huge problem with muslim immigrants who have big times to adapt to a secular state.
So unfortunately this is not for the next century in Lebanon, and for us Christian who are a minority in this see of muslim, we have to think about ourselves and find a construct that allows us to florish for the next 1000 years. We have done it now for 2000 years, we should be able to reinvent ourselves.

You should stop living in the past. Many of you guys are still living in the past of empires and sultans.

The problem Europe is facing, if at all is not the same thing that exists in Lebanon. In Lebanon, we have a crisis in terms or governance and the system. What the media shows often times is not representative of the wider picture. What of the millions of Muslims who have settled in Europe and adapted peacefully and leas successfully lives? The European model is still better than what we have in Lebanon. A system whereby you live your life and let others live theirs. Even the Quran says "let there be no compulsion in religion". Your survival for another 1 million years should be as Lebanese and because you have rights as citizens and not based on the color of the robe your patriarch wears.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
The worst historical mistake of Christians is that when they were given the opportunity to establish a predominant majority Christian country they missed it and they went to the alternative greater Lebanon where they immediately dropped form 85% to 55%.....and you know the rest of the story.

At present, the best solution is complete separation from Muslims even if the Christians state will be only 30% of the current Lebanon.
If Christians are united they can form as strong state stretching from Zgharta/Bchary/ Cedras mountains/Deir el Ahamar until Beirut Damascus road and from seashores until the western mountains chain peaks including Zahly.

Since complete separation and creating a new country is not possible politically on the international level, Christians only remaining hope is federalism (or Con-federalism if the opportunity is available).

Federalism can be achieved thru constitution and from within the state institutions, especially that Taef called for decentralization.

However, knowing the political Islam ultimate target of controlling the complete country and expelling Christians or at best transforming them to "Ahl Zemma" they won't accept federalism which will leave Christians with the only available solution to adopt defacto federalism from one side.

Christians must start preparations on all levels to declare federalism from one part, and they better be well prepared for the political Islam reaction.

The current Christians so-called leaders are not up to the task, and new leaders with enough courage to call for federalism must emerge; Najy Hayek and Zyad Asswad are good examples that can lead such a movement.

You are still propagating isolation, separation and division. This is the recipe for disappointment.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The worst historical mistake of Christians is that when they were given the opportunity to establish a predominant majority Christian country they missed it and they went to the alternative greater Lebanon where they immediately dropped form 85% to 55%.....and you know the rest of the story.

At present, the best solution is complete separation from Muslims even if the Christians state will be only 30% of the current Lebanon.
If Christians are united they can form as strong state stretching from Zgharta/Bchary/ Cedras mountains/Deir el Ahamar until Beirut Damascus road and from seashores until the western mountains chain peaks including Zahly.

Since complete separation and creating a new country is not possible politically on the international level, Christians only remaining hope is federalism (or Con-federalism if the opportunity is available).

Federalism can be achieved thru constitution and from within the state institutions, especially that Taef called for decentralization.

However, knowing the political Islam ultimate target of controlling the complete country and expelling Christians or at best transforming them to "Ahl Zemma" they won't accept federalism which will leave Christians with the only available solution to adopt defacto federalism from one side.

Christians must start preparations on all levels to declare federalism from one side, and they better be well prepared for the political Islam reaction.

The current Christians so-called leaders are not up to the task, and new leaders with enough courage to call for federalism must emerge; Najy Hayek and Zyad Asswad are good examples that can lead such a movement.

You talk about federalism as a solution, but your closest allies are Muslims (HA) and fiercest rivals Christians (LF, Kataeb, Marada). What gives?
 

NAFAR

Legendary Member
You talk about federalism as a solution, but your closest allies are Muslims (HA) and fiercest rivals Christians (LF, Kataeb, Marada). What gives?
I am not an FPMer.
I don't believe in parties...I believe in ideas.
You can call me Christian right which is the backbone of FPM, LF and all Christian parties.
I still believe that at one stage the new Christian generation will realize that it is impossible to coexist with political Islam and they will take all necessary required steps to achieve federalism.
 

NAFAR

Legendary Member
You are still propagating isolation, separation and division. This is the recipe for disappointment.
The other option is extinction within few decades at most......call me whatever you like.........as long as I will be alive and free.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
The other option is extinction within few decades at most......call me whatever you like.........as long as I will be alive and free.

Shu ya3neh extinction? Are you likening yourselves to animals in the jungle hunted by predators? Who is hunting you as prey in the open fields? And how is the current mess suitable in ensuring the opposite?
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The worst historical mistake of Christians is that when they were given the opportunity to establish a predominant majority Christian country they missed it and they went to the alternative greater Lebanon where they immediately dropped form 85% to 55%.....and you know the rest of the story.

At present, the best solution is complete separation from Muslims even if the Christians state will be only 30% of the current Lebanon.
If Christians are united they can form as strong state stretching from Zgharta/Bchary/ Cedras mountains/Deir el Ahamar until Beirut Damascus road and from seashores until the western mountains chain peaks including Zahly.

Since complete separation and creating a new country is not possible politically on the international level, Christians only remaining hope is federalism (or Con-federalism if the opportunity is available).

Federalism can be achieved thru constitution and from within the state institutions, especially that Taef called for decentralization.

However, knowing the political Islam ultimate target of controlling the complete country and expelling Christians or at best transforming them to "Ahl Zemma" they won't accept federalism which will leave Christians with the only available solution to adopt defacto federalism from one side.

Christians must start preparations on all levels to declare federalism from one side, and they better be well prepared for the political Islam reaction.

The current Christians so-called leaders are not up to the task, and new leaders with enough courage to call for federalism must emerge; Najy Hayek and Zyad Asswad are good examples that can lead such a movement.

Remember what Kataeb did to Ahrar
Remember what LF did to kataeb
Remember what Aoun and Geagea did to the Christians
Remember what Bassil did to FPM

same can be applied to the other side
the problem is in the mentality
no salvation with current mentality
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
I am not an FPMer.
I don't believe in parties...I believe in ideas.
You can call me Christian right which is the backbone of FPM, LF and all Christian parties.
I still believe that at one stage the new Christian generation will realize that it is impossible to coexist with political Islam and they will take all necessary required steps to achieve federalism.

Is political Islam present in Lebanon?

How?

There is a sectarian system which treats every sect based on its religious laws and separately. If that is political Islam, then there is also political Christianity. And you are the proponents of the sectarian system. Any hint at changing it or transitioning into statehood and a country for all and the country of the citizenry is opposed by you, even after the civil war and Taef accord setting a roadmap for transitioning from the sectarian or confessional system. You are the ones blocking the transition into statehood and holding the entire country to ransom because you want everyone to always notice that there are Christians living in Lebanon. You are not serious about statehood. And when you do, you have this screwed idea of a state exclusive to yourselves. Meaning your mission is exactly what you imagine others want or to eliminate you.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Remember what Kataeb did to Ahrar
Remember what LF did to kataeb
Remember what Aoun and Geagea did to the Christians
Remember what Bassil did to FPM

same can be applied to the other side
the problem is in the mentality
no salvation with current mentality

The mentality of separation, division, isolation, preferential treatment, superiority, discrimination, sectarianism, racism, classicism...this is the sickness affecting Lebanon. We cant live with these and they cant live with those. And we have shared this small piece of land for centuries. There is no mentality of progressiveness. Its all greed, malice and hate. Most Lebanese are mentally sick. And they belong to all sects.
 

NewLeb

Member
Ego of the maronites alone? Leish Sunnis, shiites, Druze and atheists (including orthodox :p) min Shou byishko?
I think the ego of all lebanese is a problem. Also the backstabbing, putting religion ahead of citizenship and thus siding with foreigners against compatriots and the rule of law are equally big issues

Based on their success, it’s understandable why the Maronites would have big egos. After all, they built the economic and political system of modern Lebanon, only to have it promptly destroyed by, well, you know who.....
 

Iron Maiden

Paragon of Bacon
Orange Room Supporter
Based on their success, it’s understandable why the Maronites would have big egos. After all, they built the economic and political system of modern Lebanon, only to have it promptly destroyed by, well, you know who.....
koun abaday w 2oula!! allah protect you brother
 
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