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The Lebanese Christians Curse: their leaders Mediocrity

agnostic

Legendary Member
True assertion: I am lebanon as much as you are, I don’t want what you are offering in the way you are offering it.

this is a false assumption if there ever was one. I don’t have any proof this was a terrorist attack, if you have it present it, you and HA. And the way it is being handled is the correct way albeit I have many comments on the execution, and I have yet to see results.

Your assumption was : "the resistance is not a resistance if it doesn’t represent all the people."
History shows that often Resistance against foreign attack and occupation is done and openly supported by a minority.
See in Lebanon how the 3arbade of the Safiha, if I decide by any available manner to force it to stop, it is resistance even if there is no common agreement about it. Anyway, all this is just pure literature that changes nothing.

And about the massive explosion of Beirut port, I remind you that you (pro West people) are turning blind eyes on those who decided, paid and brought the Ammonium Nitrate.
 

Walidos

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Your assumption was : "the resistance is not a resistance if it doesn’t represent all the people."
History shows that often Resistance against foreign attack and occupation is done and openly supported by a minority.
See in Lebanon how the 3arbade of the Safiha, if I decide by any available manner to force it to stop, it is resistance even if there is no common agreement about it. Anyway, all this is just pure literature that changes nothing.

And about the massive explosion of Beirut port, I remind you that you (pro West people) are turning blind eyes on those who decided, paid and brought the Ammonium Nitrate.
The resistance is supported by a minority? Show me where this has happened! There is either a resistance or a militia with demands that a few endorse...

The claim that someone decided, paid, brought the ammonium nitrate and exploded it is as baseless today as the claim that that someone is HA. Neither is supported by any proof. The most plausible story here is that of utter incompetence. Still, I am willing to listen if any proof surfaces.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
The resistance is supported by a minority? Show me where this has happened! There is either a resistance or a militia with demands that a few endorse...

The French Resistance against German occupation. Only after the German defeat that all the French became pro Resistance.


The claim that someone decided, paid, brought the ammonium nitrate [something I didn't say] is [] baseless
If not someone what is it, the holy spirit may be?
Your intellectual dishonesty is beyond any understandings.


PS: Trying to reason the Lebanese is vain. And in any case, HA know very well what they can accept and do. And they will always do what shall be done, as in the French saying "Fais Ce Que Dois Advienne Que Pourra".
 
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Walidos

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The French Resistance against German occupation. Only after the German defeat that all the French became pro Resistance.



If not someone what is it, the holy spirit may be?
Your intellectual dishonesty is beyond any understandings.


PS: Trying to reason the Lebanese is vain. And in any case, HA know very well what they can accept and do. And they will always do what shall be done, as in the French saying "Fais Ce Que Dois Advienne Que Pourra".
All the French supported the revolution, and hid people. Not all of them were active. Too bad there wasn’t social media back then! Your reasoning is ridiculous. Besides, I am online, why would I hide anything?

On thé explosion, Here you go again twisting to avoid the obvious. We know exactly who was minister when the shipment was intercepted, we know who requested the product get blocked at the port, it was in the news the first week post explosion. Now from here to claim it was all a plot to store highly explosive material at the port and blow it up at the appropriate moment is what I am telling you is unfounded. It is unfounded if you claim it was Israel, and it is unfounded if you claim it is HA....

talk about intellectual dishonesty!
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
All the French supported the revolution, and hid people. Not all of them were active. Too bad there wasn’t social media back then! Your reasoning is ridiculous. Besides, I am online, why would I hide anything?

On thé explosion, Here you go again twisting to avoid the obvious. We know exactly who was minister when the shipment was intercepted, we know who requested the product get blocked at the port, it was in the news the first week post explosion. Now from here to claim it was all a plot to store highly explosive material at the port and blow it up at the appropriate moment is what I am telling you is unfounded. It is unfounded if you claim it was Israel, and it is unfounded if you claim it is HA....

talk about intellectual dishonesty!

During the German occupation, most of the French supported Vichy and Marechal Petain, and not the French Resistance. The French say it themselves. But with your intellectual dishonesty you invent the truths that suit you even if they are totally disconnected from the reality.

About the explosion, we all know that most Lebanese civil servants and officers, from the smallest to the highest like Michel Sleiman, are corrupt and have the awareness and consciousness of apes. But I repeat you once more that this doesn't discharge those who decided, paid and brought the Ammonium Nitrate, even if you keep 7amsane and turning blind eyes on it with your intellectual dishonesty that goes beyond any understandings:

The claim that someone decided, paid, brought the ammonium nitrate [is] baseless
 

Walidos

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
During the German occupation, most of the French supported Vichy and Marechal Petain, and not the French Resistance. The French say it themselves. But with your intellectual dishonesty you invent the truths that suit you even if they are totally disconnected from the reality.

About the explosion, we all know that most Lebanese civil servants and officers, from the smallest to the highest like Michel Sleiman, are corrupt and have the awareness and consciousness of apes. But I repeat you once more that this doesn't discharge those who decided, paid and brought the Ammonium Nitrate, even if you keep 7amsane and turning blind eyes on it with your intellectual dishonesty that goes beyond any understandings:
Almost French supported petain? 😂 rou7 y’a fehmen inta...! And most Lebanese supported syrian occupation...! You are making a mockery of yourself...

On the explosion, you are full of it. Share your evidence that it was a plot/terrorist plan... you have nothing, same as the other group blaming HA. I told you, you are two faces of the same shitty coin, pulling accusations out of your behinds...
 

light-in-dark

Legendary Member
Walidos el Tamé el koubra amine gemayel who will die maout rabbo. Michel el mure el kbir rayi7. Fi ktir Sudanese wa diok rayhine.
Bass Ellé samaytoun kabil bi dahriun walid joumblatt a a nabih Berri 3assem kansouh lazim yin katalou.

In our her language all war lords and mafias god fathers
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
Beind the descendant of whoever preceded us on this land of what we call our Christian fathers, it is quite importnant to evaluate where we stand today as Christians and realise what is awaiting us.

While it is a fact that we have been always as Christians in compeition for this Land with the many other groups who have settled here, from Druze, Shia and Sunni, and while this competition is today a great severe danger , one can not but recognise the complete lack of competent Christian leaders.

Actually we are witnessing an actual mediocrity of Christian leaders, that may change the complete landscape of Christian presence in Lebanon

Picking the so called actual Christian leaders names that come to mind:
  • Michael Aoun: A power hungry selfish dangerous maniac
  • Samir Geagea: A criminal butcher and ex-convict, head of a clan
  • Sleiman Freiji: A deranged dangerous Mafiosi head of a tribe
In addition the maronite Church is led by a week personally, corrupt and incompetent person

With all the changes happening around us, with Christians presence being extinguished in Irak and Syria in less then a decade, the Christians in Lebanon are facing a very imminent dark future...

Where and how can salvation be...?
if there is a mediocrity in the Christians it certainly is not centered in their leaders, it is rather in themselves and their community. had they been better they would have produced better leaders.

you guys have lost track. you no longer have a clue. your heads are in the clouds and your feet never touch the ground. you can no longer distinguish right from wrong, friend from foe, your doom from your salvation. and as such, it is extinction served on a silver plate for our people. all big talk and no wisdom. so easy to turn against one another. divided. estranged across the globe, and never ever wrong in your own rights.

such a people deserves no future, spoiled arrogant brats, wanting everything instantaneously fast, right now. empty minds and empty souls.
 
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JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
if there is a mediocrity in the Christians it certainly is not centered in their leaders, it is rather in themselves and their community. you guys have lost track. you no longer have a clue. your heads are in the clouds and your feet never touch the ground. you can no longer distinguish right from wrong, friend from foe, your doom from your salvation. and as such, it is extinction served on a silver plate for our people. all big talk and no wisdom. so easy to turn against one another. divided. estranged across the globe, and never ever wrong in your right.

such a people deserves no future, spoiled arrogant brats, wanting everything instantaneously fast, right now.
Dude, for you we must follow Bassil like you are doing, this way we will have some clue, and we can distinguish friends and foes ? :p
instead what of these boring lectures, why don't you enlighten us, we the lost soul, what higher purpose does supporting Bassil will serve the community, and what good Bassil and his father-in-law brought to this country ???
Knowing that were were all with them at a certain point of time.
Especially many of us believed in his speech since 1988, and even after he left Lebanon, it was those people who kept the flame alive, while he was enjoying his stay in France, and making a statement from time to time.
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
Dude, for you we must follow Bassil like you are doing, this way we will have some clue, and we can distinguish friends and foes ? :p
instead what of these boring lectures, why don't you enlighten us, we the lost soul, what higher purpose does supporting Bassil will serve the community, and what good Bassil and his father-in-law brought to this country ???
Knowing that were were all with them at a certain point of time.
Especially many of us believed in his speech since 1988, and even after he left Lebanon, it was those people who kept the flame alive, while he was enjoying his stay in France, and making a statement from time to time.

my commitment is to the cause not to the person. i never really liked GMA as much as you have. and you switched from considering him next to god towards hating him with a vengeance. this is nothing but a little symptom of what i was describing before; and you are not a singular case, there isn't much wisdom nor much rationality in our community, and there are no other attributes that make up for that either.

if you think bassil is so bad, then gather yourselves and form a better party, if you cannot form such a party don't destroy what we have, even if you don't think they are good. if you do not understand at least this much, then you are a burden not an asset to any group you consider yourself a part of.
 
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The_FPMer

Well-Known Member
if there is a mediocrity in the Christians it certainly is not centered in their leaders, it is rather in themselves and their community. had they been better they would have produced better leaders.
Yes but a true patriotic leader cultivates his people and not uses their weaknesses for political gain. Something PMA and GB have not done and it came back and bit them in the arse.
 

light-in-dark

Legendary Member
my commitment is to the cause not to the person. i never really liked GMA as much as you have. and you switched from considering him next to god towards hating him with a vengeance. this is nothing but a little symptom of what i was describing before; and you are not a singular case, there isn't much wisdom nor much rationality in our community, and there are no other attributes that make up for that either.

if you think bassil is so bad, then gather yourselves and form a better party, if you cannot form such a party don't destroy what we have, even if you don't think they are good. if you do not understand at least this much, then you are a burden not an asset to any group you consider yourself a part of.
Ad marjoram dei Gloriam
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
my commitment is to the cause not to the person. i never really liked GMA as much as you have. and you switched from considering him next to god towards hating him with a vengeance. this is nothing but a little symptom of what i was describing before; and you are not a singular case, there isn't much wisdom nor much rationality in our community, and there are no other attributes that make up for that either.

if you think bassil is so bad, then gather yourselves and form a better party, if you cannot form such a party don't destroy what we have, even if you don't think they are good. if you do not understand at least this much, then you are a burden not an asset to any group you consider yourself a part of.

For once I have to agree with you on the principle.
But in the details we have some differences. You didn't like GMA this is possible not everyone liked him, but his speech in 1988 gathered around him lots of people, he compared himself to Charles De Gaulle. At the beginning his speech was good and people was craving for such speech.
They supported him and followed him even in the darkest moments because they believed he is here to fulfill their dream.
When he failed in 1990 they considered that it was an international conspiracy to oust him and break their dream of an independent state. This is why his support didn't fade away.
For sure many was looking at him as semi-god, simply because emotionally they thought he was the only one among all the rotten political class that will deliver, all the others being corrupt liars.

After his return and first win in 2005, his support started to bleed for many reasons, personally I thought he had to maneuver because of the lebanese political scene. But when FPM elections is reached and this where the strongest message should be delivered to all the lebanese, he has chosen to break all his promises of free and fair elections. This is when I personally got the wake up call, that this person is only seeking his personal and family interests and does not care about his promises of democracy. Worse he accused us of not being ready for democracy !!!
Nothing is more humiliating to people who believed in him....

As for the other point, I agree with you, there should be a new party with clear unambiguous democratic rules and behavior.
Personally I have no interest in professional politics this is not what I like to do, but I contacted several of the ex-FPMer (Naiim Aoun, Antoun Khoury Harb (RIP), Ziad Abbs, Ramzi Kanj,...) I urged them to make a new useful structure and offer the people a different, more solid and more democratic model that would attract lebanese. In return I got empty words. which makes them no better than Bassil.
Had Bassil and AOUN delivered the promise of democracy in FPM, there would not be a problem, elections will solve these type of problems and ensure the peaceful transfer of power.
A thing that the Christian community never or rarely had.
LF killed Marada, Kataeb killed Ahrar, LF killed each other (Abou Nader, Hobeyla, Geagea), LF vs Aoun etc etc...
Aoun had the unique opportunity to FIX this and he screwed it big time for personal interests.

I contacted ex-FPMers because I don't believe LF and Kataeb fit the basics of a real democratic party.
Unfortunately till now there has not been any group that would stand out of the crowd.
I am waiting to see what Charbel Nahhas would do or what the new movement in the universities would do.

But where we differ is in the stance towards Bassil, criticizing him is part of the democratic process. this guy has shown many times that he is simply an autocratic narcissist person, and any kind of giving him a blind eye, will only embolden him and making him think that he is some kind of a super hero.
At least now he knows (even tough he does not care) that he is most hated person in Lebanon, and people are aware that he is corrupt and liar.
His presence on the political scene is evil, and destructive (even his family members don't like him).
So NO! I don't believe that I am destroying anything.
This guy has been given too many chances and ****d up big time.
In here I quote criticism to British PM Chamberlain in the parliament that lead to his resignation in 1940.
"You have sat here too long for any good you are doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

This is what should be said to Bassil and Aoun.


Bottom line my friend, you can't close your eyes to the wrong simply because the right is not present yet...
It is by combatting the wrong that you figure out what is the right.

Sorry for this lengthy post.
3oshtom w 3asha Loubnan.
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
For once I have to agree with you on the principle.
But in the details we have some differences. You didn't like GMA this is possible not everyone liked him, but his speech in 1988 gathered around him lots of people, he compared himself to Charles De Gaulle. At the beginning his speech was good and people was craving for such speech.
They supported him and followed him even in the darkest moments because they believed he is here to fulfill their dream.
When he failed in 1990 they considered that it was an international conspiracy to oust him and break their dream of an independent state. This is why his support didn't fade away.
For sure many was looking at him as semi-god, simply because emotionally they thought he was the only one among all the rotten political class that will deliver, all the others being corrupt liars.

After his return and first win in 2005, his support started to bleed for many reasons, personally I thought he had to maneuver because of the lebanese political scene. But when FPM elections is reached and this where the strongest message should be delivered to all the lebanese, he has chosen to break all his promises of free and fair elections. This is when I personally got the wake up call, that this person is only seeking his personal and family interests and does not care about his promises of democracy. Worse he accused us of not being ready for democracy !!!
Nothing is more humiliating to people who believed in him....

As for the other point, I agree with you, there should be a new party with clear unambiguous democratic rules and behavior.
Personally I have no interest in professional politics this is not what I like to do, but I contacted several of the ex-FPMer (Naiim Aoun, Antoun Khoury Harb (RIP), Ziad Abbs, Ramzi Kanj,...) I urged them to make a new useful structure and offer the people a different, more solid and more democratic model that would attract lebanese. In return I got empty words. which makes them no better than Bassil.
Had Bassil and AOUN delivered the promise of democracy in FPM, there would not be a problem, elections will solve these type of problems and ensure the peaceful transfer of power.
A thing that the Christian community never or rarely had.
LF killed Marada, Kataeb killed Ahrar, LF killed each other (Abou Nader, Hobeyla, Geagea), LF vs Aoun etc etc...
Aoun had the unique opportunity to FIX this and he screwed it big time for personal interests.

I contacted ex-FPMers because I don't believe LF and Kataeb fit the basics of a real democratic party.
Unfortunately till now there has not been any group that would stand out of the crowd.
I am waiting to see what Charbel Nahhas would do or what the new movement in the universities would do.

But where we differ is in the stance towards Bassil, criticizing him is part of the democratic process. this guy has shown many times that he is simply an autocratic narcissist person, and any kind of giving him a blind eye, will only embolden him and making him think that he is some kind of a super hero.
At least now he knows (even tough he does not care) that he is most hated person in Lebanon, and people are aware that he is corrupt and liar.
His presence on the political scene is evil, and destructive (even his family members don't like him).
So NO! I don't believe that I am destroying anything.
This guy has been given too many chances and ****d up big time.
In here I quote criticism to British PM Chamberlain in the parliament that lead to his resignation in 1940.
"You have sat here too long for any good you are doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

This is what should be said to Bassil and Aoun.


Bottom line my friend, you can't close your eyes to the wrong simply because the right is not present yet...
It is by combatting the wrong that you figure out what is the right.

Sorry for this lengthy post.
3oshtom w 3asha Loubnan.
read my post again. i said i didn't like GMA as much as you did, not i didn't like GMA. there is a difference. you are just motivated by your feelings to the extreme, they get the best of you, and this is what leads to blindly following someone or blindly hating someone. the reality is that there is no such thing as pure good or pure evil in people; and you cannot create a leadership or rally people around a cause everyday. so you preserve what you have, you address its faults and fix them, you do not blast them to pieces.

your children are not perfect, you don't throw them away. you yourself were not perfect as a child, your parents didn't throw you away. your wife does not throw you away because she wants a better man. you work together to fix your collective flaws. and similarly you cannot create a party everyday, turning against it is a shame, you could have been a pressure group from within and would have been able to accomplish much more than nagging for 10 years.

you need to start feeling guilty asap, group each other and form another party, or stop this obsession with bassil. you are doing much more harm than good.
 
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