The Lebanese Christians Curse: their leaders Mediocrity

[HmsBThn]

The issue with Maronites in general is that they think they are very different and better from even other minorities while in truth they are not much different and have same mentality as the rest!

The issues being expressed here in the thread are the same issues others have in the region!
We as Muslim of this region if not the world are also having leadership issues among others...

The truth is with minorities being strengthened against the majorities in the region after so called World War I is one of our main problem today!
For example the "golden age" of Maronite rule in Lebanon didn't last long exactly because in any region where you don't have at least a satisfied or happy majority then there will hardly be any stability !

The European colonial powers are still meddling and playing around this and every time they do they make it even worse for all of us whether we are minorities or a majority!

This is a typical display of regurgitating unfounded accusations from a deep rooted inferiority complex and a passive aggressive attitude towards the superiority of other societies and cultures in their enlightenment.

 

[Al Muqawama]

This is a typical display of regurgitating unfounded accusations from a deep rooted inferiority complex and a passive aggressive attitude towards the superiority of other societies and cultures in their enlightenment.

Unfounded?
Just read your comment now and your constant hateful attitude to other people of this region in this forum alone!

You would be a great example of what I'm talking about!
And there are many others just like you.. so you are not alone in this!

All I was saying in my comment above that in truth we are not so much different from each others as people as we like to believe!
You are not so much different from the Arabs you despise so much.. for example..

 

[HmsBThn]

Unfounded?
Just read your comment now and your constant hateful attitude to other people of this region in this forum alone!

You would be a great example of what I'm talking about!
And there are many others just like you.. so you are not alone in this!

All I was saying in my comment above that in truth we are not so much different from each others as people as we like to believe!
You are not so much different from the Arabs you despise so much.. for example..

Oh yes we are very different. Maybe you should try first to respect the identity of people and where they feel they belong.
Mich mittil ma baddak

 

[Al Muqawama]

Oh yes we are very different. Maybe you should try first to respect the identity of people and where they feel they belong.
Mich mittil ma baddak

I wasn't talking about identity belonging nor did I argue against any of that..

We have different identities for sure but as people of this region in general with all our different identities and different politics we all share many bad customs/practices... like the idolizing of dirty politicians is certainly one of them!

These minions like berri, hariri, aoun ja3ja3, franjiyeh are treated like gods within their communities... while they are just some dirt in reality..

 

[HmsBThn]

I wasn't talking about identity belonging nor did I argue against any of that..

We have different identities for sure but as people of this region in general with all our different identities and different politics we all share many bad customs/practices... like the idolizing of dirty politicians is certainly one of them!

These minions like berri, hariri, aoun ja3ja3, franjiyeh are treated like gods within their communities... while they are just some dirt in reality..

I am quoting you..

"The issue with Maronites in general is that they think they are very different and better from even other minorities while in truth they are not much different and have same mentality as the rest!"

This is what you said... starting by "the issue with maronites..."

Clearly the issue is your refusal for anyone to have an identity. According to your own words.

 

[Al Muqawama]

I am quoting you..

"The issue with Maronites in general is that they think they are very different and better from even other minorities while in truth they are not much different and have same mentality as the rest!"

This is what you said... starting by "the issue with maronites..."

Clearly the issue is your refusal for anyone to have an identity. According to your own words.

Where in my own words did I show any refusal to have any identity? LOOOL
You should try understand more what others are saying dude!

Every identity got its flaws and strength here and there..
I believe the Maronite got a serious issues today with their superiority complex when it comes to how they see themselves compared to other people of this region!

There are certainly many reasons for why this is the case today! as this was not always the case for sure..
Most likely the European colonial influence had something to do with it.. and so you have a more Western educated class among the Maronite compared to others even though this is changing radically today. But early adoption and some early indoctrination helped maybe..

But this was certainly true to others identities other than the Maronite under different era and different world rulers.
Like for sure Arabs when they were stronger politically and socially they also had similar issues.. to be fair this is true everywhere when a community gain higher social/political status!

And so speaking about Lebanon when debating typical Maronite you can clearly sense this even to this day..
Where they try to constantly disassociate Lebanon from being part of the region or when they like to claim to be authentic/native to this land like the rest are not!

Take this example where they make a long list of how Lebanon is not like the rest of this "mutakhalif" region.. by claiming stuff of Lebanon being the only democracy in the ME, Lebanon is the only country without desert in the region or being Phoenician or whatever ye3ni some childish stuff to get some kind of approval or acceptance from the Europeans.

 

[HmsBThn]

Where in my own words did I show any refusal to have any identity? LOOOL
You should try understand more what others are saying dude!

Every identity got its flaws and strength here and there..
I believe the Maronite got a serious issues today with their superiority complex when it comes to how they see themselves compared to other people of this region!

There are certainly many reasons for why this is the case today! as this was not always the case for sure..
Most likely the European colonial influence had something to do with it.. and so you have a more Western educated class among the Maronite compared to others even though this is changing radically today. But early adoption and some early indoctrination helped maybe..

But this was certainly true to others identities other than the Maronite under different era and different world rulers.
Like for sure Arabs when they were stronger politically and socially they also had similar issues.. to be fair this is true everywhere when a community gain higher social/political status!

And so speaking about Lebanon when debating typical Maronite you can clearly sense this even to this day..
Where they try to constantly disassociate Lebanon from being part of the region or when they like to claim to be authentic/native to this land like the rest are not!

Take this example where they make a long list of how Lebanon is not like the rest of this "mutakhalif" region.. by claiming stuff of Lebanon being the only democracy in the ME, Lebanon is the only country without desert in the region or being Phoenician or whatever ye3ni some childish stuff to get some kind of approval or acceptance from the Europeans.

So many wrongs and issues. Not sure worth a debate.
The maronites are the dumbest creatures for believing in a big lebanon including communities unable to live together.
You are a prime example of that. Hopefully we reach a partition soon. Then you can sort out your issues and wars.

 

[Al Muqawama]

So many wrongs and issues. Not sure worth a debate.
The maronites are the dumbest creatures for believing in a big lebanon including communities unable to live together.
You are a prime example of that. Hopefully we reach a partition soon. Then you can sort out your issues and wars.

See your comment above is exactly of what I'm talking about!
You think that this was and is up to the Maronite to include and exclude any other community!
You think you are the better while the rest are not when in truth we both as communities got our very similar issues if not to say identical issues!

You lacking to understand what I'm saying is due to your enmity and despise for this region and for being part of it as you clearly stated now in your comment and before!

Lebanon will not fix its current problems/issues whether it is partitioned or not!
The problem is much greater than partitioning! It is related to international and regional problems.. the same region you despise so much which Lebanon will always be part of no matter what changes!

You are simply an angry lad who just hate the reality of this region and where this country is actually placed on the map!

Anyway I'm not asking you to debate with me any of this!

 

[SAVO]

the christians should not rely on leader..they should emphasis their own identity and attachement to their land .. and rely on themselves as individuals and as a community in sake for their survival ..they are surrounded by orcs and they should know that in Europe they still have friends to support their cause .

 

[HmsBThn]

See your comment above is exactly of what I'm talking about!
You think that this was and is up to the Maronite to include and exclude any other community!
You think you are the better while the rest are not when in truth we both as communities got our very similar issues if not to say identical issues!

You lacking to understand what I'm saying is due to your enmity and despise for this region and for being part of it as you clearly stated now in your comment and before!

Lebanon will not fix its current problems/issues whether it is partitioned or not!
The problem is much greater than partitioning! It is related to international and regional problems.. the same region you despise so much which Lebanon will always be part of no matter what changes!

You are simply an angry lad who just hate the reality of this region and where this country is actually placed on the map!

Anyway I'm not asking you to debate with me any of this!

Yes the demand to make lebanon larger was led by a maronite patriarch. It was a big mistake since people like you, focused simply on destroying that created state. Educate yourself.

 

[HmsBThn]

the christians should not rely on leader..they should emphasis their own identity and attachement to their land .. and rely on themselves as individuals and as a community in sake for their survival ..they are surrounded by orcs and they should know that in Europe they still have friends to support their cause .

Christians are very bad in politics and strategies and would rather jnter fight even to the risk of their extinction.
They do not deserve that land.

 

[SAVO]

the shiite terrorism is now the biggest threat to christian existance ..since sunni islam is coming to a path of the peace .. the khomeinism is now he leit motive of te terrorism ,..and sooner or later we need to deal with that ..

 

[vicking747]

the shiite terrorism is now the biggest threat to christian existance ..since sunni islam is coming to a path of the peace .. the khomeinism is now he leit motive of te terrorism ,..and sooner or later we need to deal with that ..

Christians are strong and are the ones who created Lebanon. We are the only group who fought to stay and survive. What we did yesterday we will do it again if needed. Thanks to the Gulf countries, Sunni are now becoming educated and more open. Shiaa are great people but the Mollahs in Iran is a great dictatorship that kills anyone daring to challenge them. They claim that they are applying religion and just implementing the Coran

This is a question I have to my dear Shiaa friends - are you also believing that Iran’s Mollahs are just implementing the Coran and hence are in the right track ?

 

[Al Muqawama]

Yes the demand to make lebanon larger was led by a maronite patriarch. It was a big mistake since people like you, focused simply on destroying that created state. Educate yourself.

The current partition we have in the region was the doing of the European colonialist..
It's not like Lebanon was the only country being created in the region.. there was simply a partition plan and the french and british went with this partition we live with today the rest is just small details as without these colonial powers none of this would have happened!

And clearly the one who needs to be educated on this.. is you.. but I guess you preffer the romanticized story they tell in schools to children on the creation of the Lebanese Republic.

First you arrogantly (again) want to blame the other locals for destroying the state you claim to have created!

While in truth the ones who destroyed it are the same colonial powers who were behind partitioning of the whole region to their liking and approval! These same powers who created the Zionist state next door to us and displaced the locals from their homes only to end up as refugees in your newly created state which was mainly the cause of the destruction of your country!

It was simply all a recipe for destruction and miseries...
Actually the whole point of partitioning our region like this was to create a fragile states who can barely rule themselves!

You folk refusing to aknwoldge all this and want to point fingers at people of this region instead of blaming your masters for creating this new reality of yours!

You expect dissociating yourself from the region as community will somehow make it better but you can not run from reality..
you always have to deal with it!

 

[HmsBThn]

The current partition we have in the region was the doing of the European colonialist..
It's not like Lebanon was the only country being created in the region.. there was simply a partition plan and the french and british went with this partition we live with today the rest is just small details as without these colonial powers none of this would have happened!

And clearly the one who needs to be educated on this.. is you.. but I guess you preffer the romanticized story they tell in schools to children on the creation of the Lebanese Republic.

First you arrogantly (again) want to blame the other locals for destroying the state you claim to have created!

While in truth the ones who destroyed it are the same colonial powers who were behind partitioning of the whole region to their liking and approval! These same powers who created the Zionist state next door to us and displaced the locals from their homes only to end up as refugees in your newly created state which was mainly the cause of the destruction of your country!

It was simply all a recipe for destruction and miseries...
Actually the whole point of partitioning our region like this was to create a fragile states who can barely rule themselves!

You folk refusing to aknwoldge all this and want to point fingers at people of this region instead of blaming your masters for creating this new reality of yours!

You expect dissociating yourself from the region as community will somehow make it better but you can not run from reality..
you always have to deal with it!

Many repeat this issue with colonial powers , as they have a religious and ideological war and issues in their culture.
I told you the best is to partition and each community can lead their endless religious ways.
Your dramatic theory is refuted, the countries created by the colonial powers were much larger than the divisions made by the previous occupiers. Turkish and arab invaders made the divisions even smaller. In fact the countries created are even much larger than European countries, which are in majority tiny, and have more diversity. The ja7shaneh is local, sha3eb jahel

 

[Resistancefrom89]

Some of the problems raised in the posts on this thread, is the way the Christians are organised politically, which is mostly the clan tribal organisation. The Western press does not refer to Christian parties when they talk about the Lebanese christians, they refer to "The Gemayels", "The Franjiye", "The Chamoun", etc.. like they would refer to Corsican clans.

What is coming clear out of the posts here is that we need a form of a collegial leadership structure, which would elect a coordinator or a spokesman, moving away from the traditional clan leadership style that has characterised the Maronite and Christian History.

Any ideas and proposal how one can establish this pragmatically...?

 

[The_FPMer]

Some of the problems raised in the posts on this thread, is the way the Christians are organised politically, which is mostly the clan tribal organisation. The Western press does not refer to Christian parties when they talk about the Lebanese christians, they refer to "The Gemayels", "The Franjiye", "The Chamoun", etc.. like they would refer to Corsican clans.

What is coming clear out of the posts here is that we need a form of a collegial leadership structure, which would elect a coordinator or a spokesman, moving away from the traditional clan leadership style that has characterised the Maronite and Christian History.

Any ideas and proposal how one can establish this pragmatically...?

This will happen naturally in the coming years but right now. In the next few years when Christians wake up from the slumber and realize that their parties have no project for them and have no intention to have one in the first place they will start moving away from their political parties. Currently they still believe their leaders have their interests at heart and can do wrong as their hearts as pure as snow. Foolishness is more destructive than psychopathy indeed. LF/Marada/Kataeb/FPM fight for power in the name of defending Christian rights while Christian birth rates keep decreasing, Christian immigration keeps increasing and Christian land selling will certainly surge again in the future.

 

[Resistancefrom89]

For once I have to agree with you on the principle.
But in the details we have some differences. You didn't like GMA this is possible not everyone liked him, but his speech in 1988 gathered around him lots of people, he compared himself to Charles De Gaulle. At the beginning his speech was good and people was craving for such speech.
They supported him and followed him even in the darkest moments because they believed he is here to fulfill their dream.
When he failed in 1990 they considered that it was an international conspiracy to oust him and break their dream of an independent state. This is why his support didn't fade away.
For sure many was looking at him as semi-god, simply because emotionally they thought he was the only one among all the rotten political class that will deliver, all the others being corrupt liars.

After his return and first win in 2005, his support started to bleed for many reasons, personally I thought he had to maneuver because of the lebanese political scene. But when FPM elections is reached and this where the strongest message should be delivered to all the lebanese, he has chosen to break all his promises of free and fair elections. This is when I personally got the wake up call, that this person is only seeking his personal and family interests and does not care about his promises of democracy. Worse he accused us of not being ready for democracy !!!
Nothing is more humiliating to people who believed in him....

As for the other point, I agree with you, there should be a new party with clear unambiguous democratic rules and behavior.
Personally I have no interest in professional politics this is not what I like to do, but I contacted several of the ex-FPMer (Naiim Aoun, Antoun Khoury Harb (RIP), Ziad Abbs, Ramzi Kanj,...) I urged them to make a new useful structure and offer the people a different, more solid and more democratic model that would attract lebanese. In return I got empty words. which makes them no better than Bassil.
Had Bassil and AOUN delivered the promise of democracy in FPM, there would not be a problem, elections will solve these type of problems and ensure the peaceful transfer of power.
A thing that the Christian community never or rarely had.
LF killed Marada, Kataeb killed Ahrar, LF killed each other (Abou Nader, Hobeyla, Geagea), LF vs Aoun etc etc...
Aoun had the unique opportunity to FIX this and he screwed it big time for personal interests.

I contacted ex-FPMers because I don't believe LF and Kataeb fit the basics of a real democratic party.
Unfortunately till now there has not been any group that would stand out of the crowd.
I am waiting to see what Charbel Nahhas would do or what the new movement in the universities would do.

But where we differ is in the stance towards Bassil, criticizing him is part of the democratic process. this guy has shown many times that he is simply an autocratic narcissist person, and any kind of giving him a blind eye, will only embolden him and making him think that he is some kind of a super hero.
At least now he knows (even tough he does not care) that he is most hated person in Lebanon, and people are aware that he is corrupt and liar.
His presence on the political scene is evil, and destructive (even his family members don't like him).
So NO! I don't believe that I am destroying anything.
This guy has been given too many chances and ****d up big time.
In here I quote criticism to British PM Chamberlain in the parliament that lead to his resignation in 1940.
"You have sat here too long for any good you are doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

This is what should be said to Bassil and Aoun.

Bottom line my friend, you can't close your eyes to the wrong simply because the right is not present yet...
It is by combatting the wrong that you figure out what is the right.

Sorry for this lengthy post.
3oshtom w 3asha Loubnan.

I like some of the approaches you have taken and we definitely need to start thinking of a new approach that will let us prosper as Christians in this land for the next century. An approach not based on the Ego of the leader but more of a well thought approach and strucutre where the goal is not the clan and the family but first the Christian Lebanese society.

 

[Resistancefrom89]

This will happen naturally in the coming years but right now. In the next few years when Christians wake up from the slumber and realize that their parties have no project for them and have no intention to have one in the first place they will start moving away from their political parties. Currently they still believe their leaders have their interests at heart and can do wrong as their hearts as pure as snow. Foolishness is more destructive than psychopathy indeed. LF/Marada/Kataeb/FPM fight for power in the name of defending Christian rights while Christian birth rates keep decreasing, Christian immigration keeps increasing and Christian land selling will certainly surge again in the future.

Unfortunately we do not have the luxury to wait and we need to be the catalyser and accelerate this. With all the changes happening around us, Jewish coming from all the over the world to settle in Israel, Arabs opening up to Jewish and all the impact that this will have on us as Christian, time is ticking. We need to react and build plans to stay in this place for the next 100 years

 

[The_FPMer]

Unfortunately we do not have the luxury to wait and we need to be the catalyser and accelerate this. With all the changes happening around us, Jewish coming from all the over the world to settle in Israel, Arabs opening up to Jewish and all the impact that this will have on us as Christian, time is ticking. We need to react and build plans to stay in this place for the next 100 years

I completely agree but unfortunately your fiercest opponent will be the Lebanese Christian himself. Just look in this forum how people still claim to be Christians but worship their leaders beside Jesus and will ostracize you for even claiming that their leader might have made a mistake at least by accident throughout the years.