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The left and muslim conspiring to take cortoba historical cathedral from the church

Cortoba Cathedral should

  • Remain a Church

    Votes: 11 73.3%
  • Be also a mosque

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • Be under civil control guided by the left

    Votes: 2 13.3%

  • Total voters
    15

JB81

Legendary Member
Even pre-Islamic Arabia was associated with backwardness. Islam just made them even more backwards. But for sure they would be doing better today if it was not for it.

The Greeks, the Romans, none of them had second guess to conquer Arabia. Empty desert land. But, I won't go to say backwardness or maybe what does the word mean... Backwards in technology? Maybe, but I do respect traditions and hospitality of Arab tribes
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Mouawiya planned the death of Omar, Othman and Ali. Yes and solely for the lust of power. After that, he gave back more influence for Jews and Christians.
he called himself "King" and built a castle. He was known for his negotiation skills, something that the previous Caliphs didn't attempt to do. As for the rest they were influenced in their rule by European kings and emperors. Of course they used Islam (the factor of Ji-had) to achieve their own personal goals. But of course they forgot that God sees all. Those who became Tyrants lost their rule at the hands of others.
However the land was conquered by Muja-hideen and these were the ones who spread the Quran. Sometimes, if a person takes advantage of your good will to later on push his own personal endeavors, this does not concern you in anyway.
The essence of Muslims making Ji-had is to spread the word of God and not to steal the resources of a country and taking it back to their own country.

The Crusaders were told the same thing. Go and rescue your brothers in the Holy Land, and capture back the Holy City.

If some took advantage, well I guess reread your post.

"By the end of the 11th century, the Holy Land—the area now commonly referred to as the Middle East—had become a point of conflict for European Christians. Since the 6th century, Christians frequently made pilgrimages to the birthplace of their religion, but when the Seljuk Turks took control of Jerusalem, Christians were barred from the Holy City. When the Turks then threatened to invade the Byzantine Empire and take Constantinople, Byzantine Emperor Alexius I made a special appeal to Urban for help."
 
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Le منشار

New Member
No? The whole MENA region used to be very diverse with a variety of cultures, languages and religions. Arabs Muslims destroyed and wiped out all those civilizations and replaced with their single backwardness. That's called genocide.
Not true it was under the tyrant rule of the king of Roum when the religion of Islam appeared. If Arab Muslims did what you claimed. then you wouldn't be here now.
Meaning not all your ancestors were butchered, only those who chose to fight the word of God and God's religion. those who chose not to fight, paid Jizya (nowadays known as TAX) and kept living normally.
Why didn't you mention Yemen? It's their Arab Muslim brothers who are bombing them as we speak. At least Americans and Europeans didn't use religion to justify their wars. Don't you understand that ALL, literally all conflicts in the Middle East are rooted in Islam?
All conflict warlords and parties in the middle east use the mask of Islam as religion to rally people for their own personal agenda. Imagine telling someone, "come fight and die for me" or " fight for your religion, fight for the prophet, fight for the prophet's family, fight for your country, fight for your freedom" .... this has a different taste you know. But God sees all and God deceives, those who try to deceive others.

As for the case of Yemen, it is more complicated than how you're simply putting it. All the recent conflict in the ME (Arab Spring) was planned and conducted by the NATO,Russia and the Jews. and yes religion was used by these 3 parties to instigate aggression against Muslims. I can bring you proof .. but you already know so
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Not true it was under the tyrant rule of the king of Roum when the religion of Islam appeared. If Arab Muslims did what you claimed. then you wouldn't be here now.
Meaning not all your ancestors were butchered, only those who chose to fight the word of God and God's religion. those who chose not to fight, paid Jizya (nowadays known as TAX) and kept living normally.

Not all Algerians were butchered, but only those who chose to fight the superior French culture.
 

Le منشار

New Member
The Crusaders were told the same thing. Go and rescue your brothers in the Holy Land, and capture back the Holy City.

If some took advantage, well I guess reread your post.

"By the end of the 11th century, the Holy Land—the area now commonly referred to as the Middle East—had become a point of conflict for European Christians. Since the 6th century, Christians frequently made pilgrimages to the birthplace of their religion, but when the Seljuk Turks took control of Jerusalem, Christians were barred from the Holy City. When the Turks then threatened to invade the Byzantine Empire and take Constantinople, Byzantine Emperor Alexius I made a special appeal to Urban for help."
saying "some" doesn't mean "all" ... same thing happening now in our region. the Arab Spring, which has expanded to the Muslim Spring. People think they are fighting for an Islamic shari3a rule while those who are funding them and supporting them, have different agendas and goals. mainly deals with crusader countries.

as for historical events, The crusaders were "not told", they were "forced" to join the crusade. but true, it was based on lies and to push the agendas of the kings of Europe.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
I don't know of any Roman or Greek temple that was carved in sandstones.
And their water technology was quite avant-garde. They certainly didnt copy it from Roman's.



Well the Catholics weren't exactly known for their tolerance towards Jews. Antisemitism was born in Europe.
If the holocaust took place it's because European Catholics decided to scapegoat the Jews.

During the Middle Ages, Jews found refuge in Muslim cities. They prospered under the Caliphate and Ottoman rule.

Some Christians love to bring up the topic of Jizya to discredit Muslims.

Fact is Jews who played the Jizya were being exempt from military service.
They were getting benefits in return.

I'm sure they preferred paying taxes to being persecuted by Christians at the time.



The jizya was the worst discriminatory and ill intent from Muslims. They forbid Christians and Jews from carrying weapons and made them pay for Muslim wars against Christians somewhere else.
The jizya wasn't meant they want Christians to not fight and die, it is because they don't want Christians to carry arms. It wasn't as good will as Muslims portray it, on top they forced Christians to pay extra money.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Of course I did, that's why I wrote that it has nothing to do with Christianity. why are you even making a religious poll about it.
The architecture of Cortoba has nothing to do with christianity nor the church. you want to claim everything as "belonging to the
church"? shu hal maskhara.

3ayneh, in the beginning, they were all pagans then came Moses, part of them followed, others remained pagans, then came Jesus, part of them followed others remained pagans, then came Mohammad, part of them followed him and others remained, christians, jews or pagans. Yes part of the jews became christians and then part of the christians became Muslims. Does that mean, you should expel these people from their lands because your crusaders friends have a retarded ideology of conquering the world, killing and displacing people as they see fit ?

Why am I making a poll about it? Dude...you can't even figure out who made the poll in this thread and you want to debate me on historical architecture? Get outta here.

I shared a long post describing very precisely the different elements of the Cordoba building. Unless you can demonstrate that corinthian columns do not have Greco-Roman origins, that mosaics did not precede islam by hundreds of years, and other such things, then your posts are nothing more than your ill-conceived opinions.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
saying "some" doesn't mean "all" ... same thing happening now in our region. the Arab Spring, which has expanded to the Muslim Spring. People think they are fighting for an Islamic shari3a rule while those who are funding them and supporting them, have different agendas and goals. mainly deals with crusader countries.

as for historical events, The crusaders were "not told", they were "forced" to join the crusade. but true, it was based on lies and to push the agendas of the kings of Europe.

Thank you. Both Islam and Christianity are innocent from political ambition of some.

So, instead of saying Christians and Christianity, we can say the French, the British the Russians, same as for Muslims, it was the Turks, the Iranians the Arabs ambition to conquer and steal wealth.

And this is one of the many mistakes and false accusations that many religions suffer and mostly Christianity.
 

Le منشار

New Member
Not all Algerians were butchered, but only those who chose to fight the superior French culture.
Muslims were spreading a religion not of their own invention and culture, but ordered by God to Prophet Mohammad and by the prophet to the Arabs who joined him.
The French were forcing their own "human" flawed ideologies. as per this documentary, old but interesting to understand the mentality of the crusaders. very dangerous type of thinking.
if you don't want to watch from the beginning, start from "minute 13:00"
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Muslims were spreading a religion not of their own invention and culture, but ordered by God to Prophet Mohammad and by the prophet to the Arabs who joined him.
The French were forcing their own "human" flawed ideologies. as per this documentary, old but interesting to understand the mentality of the crusaders. very dangerous type of thinking.
if you don't want to watch from the beginning, start from "minute 13:00"

You believe that Islam is ordered by God, most people don't. You can't force people to believe in Islam just as the French can't force people to, and conquer other people's lands in the name of modernity and civility.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Thank you. Both Islam and Christianity are innocent from political ambition of some.

So, instead of saying Christians and Christianity, we can say the French, the British the Russians, same as for Muslims, it was the Turks, the Iranians the Arabs ambition to conquer and steal wealth.

And this is one of the many mistakes and false accusations that many religions suffer and mostly Christianity.

True.
Christianity is a beautiful and peaceful faith that teaches compassion.

However it is inaccurate to say that Christians did not veer off Jesus' teachings and committed religiously-motivated violence during the Medieval and Colonial ages. It's not a one-incident situation or as rare as you would like us to believe. History is so full of Christian violence, that the Pope himself had to issue an official apology.
 

Le منشار

New Member
Why am I making a poll about it? Dude...you can't even figure out who made the poll in this thread and you want to debate me on historical architecture? Get outta here.

I shared a long post describing very precisely the different elements of the Cordoba building. Unless you can demonstrate that corinthian columns do not have Greco-Roman origins, that mosaics did not precede Islam by hundreds of years, and other such things, then your posts are nothing more than your ill-conceived opinions.
it is not important who is the person who made the poll, it's you pushing this idea with your post.
I didn't deny that the Corinthian columns exist, all I said, they have nothing to do with the church. you have this 3e2det na2ess enno if you found a Corinthian architecture, it means it is was built by the christians and occupied by Muslims. that's the whole idea !!
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Strawman, after strawman, after strawman...

Arabs built skyscrapers long before New York came into existence.
This is Shibam in Yemen. It's considered the oldest skyscraper-city in the world and nicknamed "Manhattan of the desert".
Arabs originated from Yemen not from Mecca.

View attachment 11426

The old architecture of Yemen is indeed very lovely. But what does this have to do with the argument that the Cordoba building is not an example of Muslims "bringing culture to Europe," because the elements of that building are not islamic in origin?

Petra, another Arab engineering feat that rivals the grandeur of Greece and Rome.

Rather than construct their buildings, Nabateans carved them out of sandatone canyons.

The real engineering ingenuity of the Nabateans, though, can be realized from their intelligent design of Petra's hydrology system.
Modern day hydraulic engineers have discovered that the Nabateans have managed to effectively transport water five miles from the source to Petra by carving out pipe ridges along the mountains with a four-degree slope. The long-haul pipelines were perfectly engineered to provide a constant supply of water to the busy towns of the lost city.

The Amazing Engineering Feats of the Lost City of Petra

Sorry dude. There is nothing islamic about Petra either. It was built hundreds of year before islam existed.

"Al-Khazneh was originally built as a mausoleum and crypt at the beginning of the 1st century AD.

Petra's importance declined as sea trade routes emerged, and after a 363 earthquake destroyed many structures. The Byzantine Era witnessed the construction of several Christian churches, but the city continued to decline, and by the early Islamic era became an abandoned place where only a handful of nomads lived. It remained unknown to the world until it was rediscovered in 1812 by Johann Ludwig Burckhardt."
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
it is not important who is the person who made the poll, it's you pushing this idea with your post.
I didn't deny that the Corinthian columns exist, all I said, they have nothing to do with the church. you have this 3e2det na2ess enno if you found a Corinthian architecture, it means it is was built by the christians and occupied by Muslims. that's the whole idea !!

That's not the argument I made. Learn to read instead of wasting people's time.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
True.
Christianity is a beautiful and peaceful faith that teaches compassion.

However it is inaccurate to say that Christians did not veer off Jesus' teachings and committed religiously-motivated violence during the Medieval and Colonial ages. It's not a one-incident situation or as rare as you would like us to believe. History is so full of Christian violence, that the Pope himself had to issue an official apology.

So other people too. I mean not only the religions ones, look at the athiestic communist USSR and China... Millions of people were perished in the name of communism and athiests.

But for the Pope to issue an official apology, it is a Christian act to admit wrongdoings and ask for forgiveness.
Others have to follow, because surely if they don't admit, it is not that they didn't commit violence and atrocities.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
True.
Christianity is a beautiful and peaceful faith that teaches compassion.

However it is inaccurate to say that Christians did not veer off Jesus' teachings and committed religiously-motivated violence during the Medieval and Colonial ages. It's not a one-incident situation or as rare as you would like us to believe. History is so full of Christian violence, that the Pope himself had to issue an official apology.

No one made such a claim. Christians are first to admit that humans, including themselves, are fallen and full of sin.

What is inaccurate however, is portraying defensive actions, such as the crusades, as offensive conquests. Or claiming that Christianity was historically more violent than Islam.

I only read bits and pieces of the last couple of pages and already found so many strawmen, lies, and inaccuracies.

I can only imagine what other rubish was posted that I did not yet see.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Strawman, after strawman, after strawman...



The old architecture of Yemen is indeed very lovely. But what does this have to do with the argument that the Cordoba building is not an example of Muslims "bringing culture to Europe," because the elements of that building are not islamic in origin?



Sorry dude. There is nothing islamic about Petra either. It was built hundreds of year before islam existed.

"Al-Khazneh was originally built as a mausoleum and crypt at the beginning of the 1st century AD.

Petra's importance declined as sea trade routes emerged, and after a 363 earthquake destroyed many structures. The Byzantine Era witnessed the construction of several Christian churches, but the city continued to decline, and by the early Islamic era became an abandoned place where only a handful of nomads lived. It remained unknown to the world until it was rediscovered in 1812 by Johann Ludwig Burckhardt."

Dudette, my post was in reply to @Dark Angel who was trying to imply that Arabs contributed nothing to arts.

Cordoba's architecture is as much Arabic as it is Islamic. You can't talk about one without mentioning the other.
The Nabateans are an ancient nomadic Arab tribe known for their remarkable engineering feats.

It's time we show some Arab pride instead of pretending we're Phoenicians. Nothing built by the Phoenicians withstood the test of time.
So what if they discovered purple dye? My life is not significantly better because I can purple boxers now.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Cordoba's architecture is as much Arabic as it is Islamic.

You can repeat this as much as you want. It does not change the following facts.

The architecture of the Cordoba mosque:

In planning the mosque, the architects incorporated a number of Roman columns with choice capitals. Some of the columns were already in the Gothic structure; others were sent from various regions of Iberia as presents from the governors of provinces. Ivory, jasper, porphyry, gold, silver, copper, and brass were used in the decorations. Marvellous mosaics and azulejos were designed.

Mosaics have a long history, starting in Mesopotamia in the 3rd millennium BC. [Assyrians and their ancestors]. Pebble mosaics were made in Tiryns in Mycenean Greece; mosaics with patterns and pictures became widespread in classical times, both in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. Early Christian basilicas from the 4th century onwards were decorated with wall and ceiling mosaics. Mosaic art flourished in the Byzantine Empire from the 6th to the 15th centuries.​
Azulejo is a form of Spanish and Portuguese painted tin-glazed ceramic tilework.​

The Great Mosque of Córdoba exhibited features and an architectural appearance similar to the Great Mosque of Damascus, which may have been used as a model.

The Umayyad Mosque, also known as the Great Mosque of Damascus located in the old city of Damascus, is one of the largest and oldest mosques in the world.​
After the Muslim conquest of Damascus in 634, the mosque was built on the site of a Christian basilica dedicated to John the Baptist.​
The arcades are supported by two rows of stone Corinthian columns.​

The Corinthian order is the last developed of the three principal classical orders of ancient Greek and Roman architecture.​

Influence on mosque architecture​
The Umayyad Mosque is one of the few early mosques in the world to have maintained the same general structure and architectural features since its initial construction in the early 8th century and its Umayyad character has not been significantly altered.​

Umayyad architecture developed in the Umayyad Caliphate between 661 and 750, primarily in its heartlands of Syria and Palestine [population mostly Aramean, with some Greek, Roman, Assyrian, Phoenician, Jewish, Armenian, Nabatean, and pre-islamic Arab communities]. It drew extensively on the architecture of other Middle Eastern civilizations [same as above] and that of the Byzantine Empire, but introduced innovations in decoration and new types of building such as mosques with mihrab's and minarets.​
The Umayyads adopted the construction techniques of Byzantine architecture and Sasanian architecture [pre-islamic Persians]. They often re-used existing buildings. There was some innovation in decoration and in types of building.​
The Umayyads used local workers and architects. Some of their buildings cannot be distinguished from those of the previous regime. However, in many cases eastern and western elements were combined to give a distinctive new Islamic style. For example, the walls at Qasr Mshatta are built from cut stone in the Syrian manner [see Syria info above], the vaults are Mesopotamian in design [Assyrian] and Coptic and Byzantine elements appear in the decorative carving.​

The [Cordoba mosque] building is most notable for its arcaded hypostyle hall, with 856 columns of jasper, onyx, marble, granite and porphyry. These were made from pieces of the Roman temple that had occupied the site previously, as well as other Roman buildings, such as the Mérida amphitheatre. The double arches were an innovation, permitting higher ceilings than would otherwise be possible with relatively low columns. The double arches consist of a lower horseshoe arch and an upper semi-circular arch. The famous alternating red and white voussoirs of the arches were inspired by those in the Dome of the Rock [Umayyad] and also resemble those of the Aachen Cathedral, which were built almost at the same time. Horseshoe arches were known in the Iberian Peninsula since late Antiquity, as can be seen on the 3rd-century "Estela de los Flavios", now in the archaeological museum of León.

Sources:

Mosque–Cathedral of Córdoba - Wikipedia

Mesopotamia - Wikipedia

Akkadian Empire - Wikipedia

Mosaic - Wikipedia

Azulejo - Wikipedia

Umayyad Mosque - Wikipedia

Corinthian order - Wikipedia

Umayyad architecture - Wikipedia

Syria - Wikipedia
 
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