The path of ODIN !

ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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For Mithraism (which branched off Indie-Iranians) and practice of Ash Wednesday,

The Mysteries of Mithras: The Pagan Belief That Shaped the Christian World
 
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  • Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    I think that it is true that some people explain and believe that ash Wednesday and Lent have both pagan origins. I am not saying that this point of view is true but it worth being discussed.
    Actually as XMyzo explained "The practice of putting ashes on one's forehead has been known from ancient times. In the Nordic pagan religion, placing ashes above one's brow was believed to ensure the protection of the Norse god, Odin. This practice spread to Europe during the Vikings conquests. This laying on of ashes was done on Wednesday, the day named for Odin, Odin's Day.”

    Lent and Christmas also have connections with pre-Christians traditions. Some people believe that Christmas was really a spin-off of Saturnalia and other similar pagan holidays, and the date was chosen to help early pagans ease into the religious transition of monotheistic Christianity.
     
    VH Redux

    VH Redux

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    For online sources:


    For academic sources: Any book about God Tammouz and Lent rituals (e.g Two Bablyons), any book about Seed of Agni and Indian Fire God and ash rituals (Hinduism and Indus Valley origin books), any book about Indus Valley civilization and Odin (which the above came from).
    you just pasted a very sketchy website quoting some unknown dude saying that "placing ashes above one's brow was believed to ensure the protection of the Norse god, Odin." with no verification.

    that same line is copy-pasted by wiccan and atheist blogs without proof

    just like sayign that jesus is a copy of tammuz or krishna or adonis ... pure lies if you do your research

    as i said there are million ways to poke fun at religion
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I think that it is true that some people explain and believe that ash Wednesday and Lent have both pagan origins. I am not saying that this point of view is true but it worth being discussed.
    Actually as XMyzo explained "The practice of putting ashes on one's forehead has been known from ancient times. In the Nordic pagan religion, placing ashes above one's brow was believed to ensure the protection of the Norse god, Odin. This practice spread to Europe during the Vikings conquests. This laying on of ashes was done on Wednesday, the day named for Odin, Odin's Day.”

    Lent and Christmas also have connections with pre-Christians traditions. Some people believe that Christmas was really a spin-off of Saturnalia and other similar pagan holidays, and the date was chosen to help early pagans ease into the religious transition of monotheistic Christianity.
    Every religion comes from other pagan religions. Christianity is a bit harder to trace as it grew among competitive paganism and both took from each other. What frustrated me here is the subtle claim that Jews are the first-ever religion when that's just plainly absurd and goes against all history and archaeology. I would even argue that Jews themselves are polytheists an did rituals to different Caananite Gods before settling on some weird Mountain God called Yahweh. And a lot of their works and kings are really rip-offs of Babylonians and others. But that's another can of worms.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    you just pasted a very sketchy website quoting some unknown dude saying that "placing ashes above one's brow was believed to ensure the protection of the Norse god, Odin." with no verification.

    that same line is copy-pasted by wiccan and atheist blogs without proof

    just like sayign that jesus is a copy of tammuz or krishna or adonis ... pure lies if you do your research

    as i said there are million ways to poke fun at religion
    First, I'm not poking fun at religion. And I provided you with 10 books. Start with "Two Babylons".
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    just lay out your arguments

    how is judaism a rip off of the canaanite pantheon
    The Old Ones in the Old Book: Pagan roots of the Hebrew Testament, by Phillip West.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    bro just tell me your arguments

    stop pasting book names

    1- Jews worshiped multiple Gods. E.g Abraham did a ritual to a certain Canaanite God. Moses to another.

    2- Modern translation pretended they were all the same God.

    3- Yahweh was a random Mountain God that had nothing to do with most of the stories.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    4- Moses was never in Egypt. Not recorded with his events in Ancient Egyptian writings. When they recorded everything even conquests by enemy Nubians.

    5- Jews included themselves in the history of other civilizations as they were desert dwellers and behind.
     
    VH Redux

    VH Redux

    Member
    1- Jews worshiped multiple Gods. E.g Abraham did a ritual to a certain Canaanite God. Moses to another
    2- Modern translation pretended they were all the same God.
    Israelites worshiped canaanite deities at some point and it got yahweh angry

    what is the name of the canaanite god abraham did a ritual to?



    3- Yahweh was a random Mountain God that had nothing to do with most of the stories.
    source for that
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    i will read it when i have the time

    in the mean time lay out your own arguments and stop pasting links and book names please
    You can just read page 211 forward. Has the summary you'd need.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    what is the name of the canaanite god abraham did a ritual to?
    El. referenced in The Old Ones book.


    source for that
    "In fact, it seems that the ancient Israelites weren't even the first to worship Yhwh – they seem to have adopted Him from a mysterious, unknown tribe that lived somewhere in the deserts of the southern Levant and Arabia."



    Yahweh, according to Amzallag, was transformed from one god among many to the supreme deity by the Israelites in the Iron Age (c.1200-930 BCE) when iron replaced bronze and the copper smelters, whose craft was seen as a kind of transformative magic, lost their unique status. In this new age, the Israelites in Canaan sought to distance themselves from their neighbors in order to consolidate political and military strength and so elevated Yahweh above El as the supreme being and claimed him as their own. His association with the forge, and with imagery of fire, smoke, and smiting, worked as well in describing a god of storms and war and so Yahweh’s character changed from a deity of transformation to one of conquest. Miller and Hayes comment:

    Perhaps the most noticeable characteristic of Yahweh in Israel’s early poetry and narrative literature is his militancy. The so-called “Song of the Sea” in Exodus 15:1-18 and the “Song of Deborah” in Judges 5 are typical in their praise of Yahweh, the divine warrior who could be counted on to intervene on behalf of his followers…Thus it may have been primarily in connection with Israel’s wars that Yahweh gained status as the national god. During times of peace, the tribes will have depended heavily on Baal in his various local forms to ensure fertility. But when they came together to wage war against their common enemies, they would have turned to Yahweh, the divine warrior who could provide victory. (112)

    On further research, I found that he originally was God of a Mountain tribe (relation to Iron mining in the Levant).
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    I'm not interested in your emotional and village-idiot defense of Christianity in every thread either. The Lebanese civil war is over. You clearly don't know the simple historic timelines for religions and claim that everything that is pagan is okay if Jews had it. When Jews are the biggest thieves of Pagan religions to begin with.

    And it all comes down to the fact that you're brainwashed with Christianity because of your personal problems and the fact that the church feasted on your weakness as a vulnerable person. You're like every other guy in a Christian hug group. And not worth my time or my charts and timelines.
    there is a reason why i do not discuss these topics except with select people. these topics require a type of understanding that does not stem from prejudice, preconceived notions, internet memes and cheat-sheets (be it v 1.0 or v 2.0), otherwise the discussion will be an exercise in futility. you are not raising this topic to engage in a meaningful exchange of ideas, where people can learn and benefit from, but you are rather carrying out an ideological agenda. i do not mind discussing ideologies, but never with mechanical foot soldiers.

    for truth be told, there is nothing much to be discussed when you are raising the sort of claims that reflect neither intellect nor veracity. either you cannot perceive that, which makes this sort of discussion way beyond you, or you can perceive it and you simply want to troll, provoke and insult the way you have been doing. you come across like another angry neo-atheist; and seen one, seen them all. the tactics, the provocations, the insults, the indirect side discussions, the shoulder patting, etc..

    regardless, you will not be able to address any sophisticated topic, in particular ones of this nature, without addressing that problem within you first. theological discussions by themselves are usually quite interesting, but unfortunately for you, you are not ready.
     
    VH Redux

    VH Redux

    Member
    El. referenced in The Old Ones book.
    i meant a bible verse

    El was a canaanite deity and israelites were a canaanite tribe

    they strayed away from yahweh and worshiped baal and el at many junctures but this doesnt point out to polytheism in judaism


    "In fact, it seems that the ancient Israelites weren't even the first to worship Yhwh – they seem to have adopted Him from a mysterious, unknown tribe that lived somewhere in the deserts of the southern Levant and Arabia."



    Yahweh, according to Amzallag, was transformed from one god among many to the supreme deity by the Israelites in the Iron Age (c.1200-930 BCE) when iron replaced bronze and the copper smelters, whose craft was seen as a kind of transformative magic, lost their unique status. In this new age, the Israelites in Canaan sought to distance themselves from their neighbors in order to consolidate political and military strength and so elevated Yahweh above El as the supreme being and claimed him as their own. His association with the forge, and with imagery of fire, smoke, and smiting, worked as well in describing a god of storms and war and so Yahweh’s character changed from a deity of transformation to one of conquest. Miller and Hayes comment:



    On further research, I found that he originally was God of a Mountain tribe (relation to Iron mining in the Levant).
    this is just speculation

    " adopted Him from a mysterious, unknown tribe that lived somewhere in the deserts of the southern Levant and Arabia" kay.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    Active Member
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    there is a reason why i do not discuss these topics except with select people. these topics require a type of understanding that does not stem from prejudice, preconceived notions, internet memes and cheat-sheets (be it v 1.0 or v 2.0), otherwise the discussion will be an exercise in futility. consequently you are not opening a discussion that people can learn and benefit from, but you are rather carrying out an ideological agenda. i do not mind discussing ideologies, but never with mechanical foot soldiers.

    for truth be told, there is nothing much to be discussed when you are raising the sort of claims that reflect neither intellect nor veracity. either you cannot perceive that, which makes this sort of discussion way beyond you, or you can perceive that and you simply want to troll, provoke and insult, the way you have been doing. you are simply another angry neo-atheist, and seen one, seen them all. the tactics, the provocations, the insults, the indirect side discussions, the shoulder patting, etc..

    regardless, you will not be able to address any sophisticated topic, in particular ones of this nature, without addressing that problem within you first. theological discussions by themselves are usually quite interesting, but unfortunately for you, you are not ready.
    Hehe. I'm actually a theist. And a Druze Gnostic that knows more about religion than our lowly student "Jesus of Nazerth" which is your God. And I wouldn't say you're not ready for theology, you're not ready for rational discourse as a whole. You are an exoteric Christian. At the very surface of understanding and religious practice. Not even your renowned Christian historians adopt your responses or take them seriously. And I can't but meet you with a pitiful smile and remember when the Hermetics of Europe said to you Christians "Milk for babes and meat for men."
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    i meant a bible verse

    El was a canaanite deity and israelites were a canaanite tribe

    they strayed away from yahweh and worshiped baal and el at many junctures but this doesnt point out to polytheism in judaism
    The Bible in modern translations mixed up all references to El and Baal and made them point to Yahweh. Even when that resulted in contradictions.


    Exodus 6:2 :

    And God spoke to Moses and said to him
    I am Yahweh. And I showed to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El-Shaddai, and by my name, 'Yahweh', I did not make myself known to them.
    Genesis 15:7(ESV): 'And he said to him [Abraham], "I am Yahweh who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess."'


    this is just speculation

    " adopted Him from a mysterious, unknown tribe that lived somewhere in the deserts of the southern Levant and Arabia" kay.
    The origin / location of the tribe is speculation. But EL being higher than Yahweh, and Yahweh being a foreign adoption is not. But agreed upon in Caananite/Jewish history.
     
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