The True Horror of Islam

O Brother

O Brother

Legendary Member
It is not about shame. It is about consistency. Jesus preached that we must love our enemies, because only love can conquer evil.
The Quran and the Prophet Muhmmad peace be upon him teaches us over and over about مقابلة الإساءة بالإحسان .
And consistency and patient is actually part of the Muslim way of life that leads to success as mentioned in the holy Quran many times.
It is really sad that you never actually read the Quran.

We differ of course on the understading and how.

Self defence and self-determination as community where we determines our own statehood and our way of life as a community is must or our children might be lost!

We can not allow the evildoers to control the community.

So yes we can wish for others and for our enemies the good because for us goodness is to believe in la ilaha ila lah.
Today you yourself might be bashing Islam but who knows what you will be tomorrow.. The guidance is from god almighty and he guides who ever he wants.

So in that sense yes love your enemies and win the hearts of your enemies with goodness and good words.

This is what the Sirah (biography) of prophet Muhammad A.S.W tells us and teaches us.

But also common sense says if your enemies comes to fight your way of life and seek to destroy you then you must defend it back like many prophets did!

This is what King David (A.S.W) with his mighty men fought for!



we have established with Christ that problems do not get solved by the sword, people can win with the sword all while being on the wrong side, it does not serve veracity with anything. winning a battle and exterminating enemies mean nothing as far as truth is concerned. you can win a thousand battles and be on the wrong side, just as well as you could lose a thousand battles while you are on the right side.

we have learned instead that Truth does not need to be imposed with strength, but rather with understanding. people will always struggle with it, because it is far from easy to grasp, but the answer remains the same, violence begets violence, and those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Well reality is not so easy!
You have to deal with your enemies when they come to destroy you!

The evildoers are here in this world for a reason and they are a fierce enemy who are very determined if you believe you can win them by opening your arms for them then go ahead take your chances and good luck with that.

And don't get me wrong the devil will come back at you with opening arms as well this is how the devil deceives oh ya he is very patient he got his way to win people over as well.

I guess I have read too many biblical and Quranic stories to look at in it this way!


And nobody is talking about imposing the truth but the truth must be protected and must be guarded so it can be taught to the next generations.
It must be easy to be found but if you do not protect it then the truth will be lost and it will be hard to find by the youth.

You seems to forget what kind of world we live in and how important it is to bring up a healthy youth.

As for "those who live by the sword will die by the sword"
Dying fighting for a just cause is a honor in the eye of the believer so why do you have an issue with that?



@Nasser, here is the kicker, both our friends @Rachel Corrie and @Noborders are trying to point out your wrong perception of peaceful islam, yet they each subscribe to a school of islam that completely opposes the other, oftentimes with extreme violence. the majority of wahhabis/salafis consider shias to be ripe kuffars in an ever open season.
And your point is?

Actually as Muslims we have way more in common we can pray together facing the same qibla... we eat and drink the same way by saying bismillah.. we both say la ilaha ila lah muhamadun rassullaah, we both read from the same book the holy Quran.. we both go to pilgrim ye3ni the similarities are countless

You keep talking about how badly Muslims treat each others yet you never think about how Christians treat each others just look how white evangelical Christians are treating the catholics coming from the south.. people are treating each others like shit everywhere.. wake up and start practice the love you preach :)


Peace.
 
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  • Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    @Noborders

    There is a flaw in your reasoning, which comes from islam, that I want to point out to you and let you think about.

    So in that sense yes love your enemies and win the hearts of your enemies with goodness and good words.

    ...

    But also common sense says if your enemies comes to fight your way of life and seek to destroy you then you must defend it back like many prophets did!
    You say that islam teaches you to:

    - Love your enemies
    - Fight them only if they are a threat to you

    But, by definition, an enemy is someone who is a threat to you; otherwise, he or she wouldn't be an enemy.

    This leaves out the first option of loving them.
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    @Noborders

    There is a flaw in your reasoning, which comes from islam, that I want to point out to you and let you think about.



    You say that islam teaches you to:

    - Love your enemies
    - Fight them only if they are a threat to you

    But, by definition, an enemy is someone who is a threat to you; otherwise, he or she wouldn't be an enemy.

    This leaves out the first option of loving them.

    So you love so called ISIS?

    You would love your enemies in the sense that you would pray for them to be guided on the right path.. or by treating them good etc.
    but yes if they are coming to destroy you then you simply have to defend yourself as that would be the natural response for any human being!

    You are the one who seems to have flaws with reality!
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    So you love so called ISIS?

    You would love your enemies in the sense that you would pray for them to be guided on the right path.. or by treating them good etc.
    but yes if they are coming to destroy you then you simply have to defend yourself as that would be the natural response for any human being!

    You are the one who seems to have flaws with reality!
    No, I don't love ISIS (the organization and what they represent). However, I recognize that the individuals within ISIS are human beings; and, somewhere under the horrible choices they make, there exists some good and the possibility for them to repent and change. And it is only through love that we can bring out that good.

    However, that does not mean we can't defend ourselves in a legitimate situation of self-defense. That means to be under imminent physical threat. And to limit the scope of action to defending oneself and one's people in that moment of danger.

    This is very different from Mohamad's interpretation of defending yourself from the enemy.

    - His definition of "enemy" was anyone who opposed him, even if that opposition wasn't violent.
    - When he wasn't strong enough to impose himself on people, he would wait until he had gathered enough strenght, then returned years later to attack them. This is not self-defense, it's calculated revenge.
    - When he attacked people, it wasn't simply to save his life and the lives of his people. He would also steal their posessions and enslave their women.

    So yeah...the notion of self-defense in Christianity is very different from what Mohamed teached his followers.
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    No, I don't love ISIS (the organization and what they represent). However, I recognize that the individuals within ISIS are human beings; and, somewhere under the horrible choices they make, there exists some good and the possibility for them to repent and change. And it is only through love that we can bring out that good.

    However, that does not mean we can't defend ourselves in a legitimate situation of self-defense. That means to be under imminent physical threat. And to limit the scope of action to defending oneself and one's people in that moment of danger.
    Well that what I said to begin with so you basically don't see any flaws all of sudden in this because you said it yourself now? :lol:
    Why are you so afraid of us agreeing on something?

    And to be clear here.. reaching that level of purifying the heart is not easy, it takes years of true devotions to be at that stage of Ihsan (إحسان‎).
    Mahabbah (محبة) is about cleansing the heart to purify it, to cleanse it.. reaching unconditional love for the almighty Creator.. and this is the only time where unconditional love is possible.

    My Allah purify our hearts and make us of the Muhsinin.

    This is very different from Mohamad's interpretation of defending yourself from the enemy.
    - His definition of "enemy" was anyone who opposed him, even if that opposition wasn't violent.
    - When he wasn't strong enough to impose himself on people, he would wait until he had gathered enough strenght, then returned years later to attack them. This is not self-defense, it's calculated revenge.
    - When he attacked people, it wasn't simply to save his life and the lives of his people. He would also steal their posessions and enslave their women.
    You really need to start reading the whole Sirah of Muhammad (A.S.W) to understand how wrong you are.
    It is not efficient to read only from hate websites like asnwer islam or wikislam whose only agenda is to make a certain idea about the prophet.

    The story of the prophet's journey to Taif in which he (A.S.W) got really hurt in refute all your claims.
    His beautiful Dua after Taif would tell you what kind of man he was!

    Have you read any of his Duah or about any other stories than the ones circulating by the haters?

    So yeah...the notion of self-defense in Christianity is very different from what Mohamed teached his followers.
    I would advice you to read about the history of Christianity in time of political weakness and in time of political strength.
    If you don't recognize there are some differences of Christianity under each particular condition then you are too blinded to recognize your own hypocrisy here.

    but let me ask you this, do you consider Christian saint warriors who used the sword against their enemies to be Christians or Unchristian?
    And no, many of these saints were not just defending themselves many of them were waging wars on a far foreign land.

    Or lets take the so called Holy Wars waged by the Christians for centuries do you consider them to be unchristian?
    Or the Inquisition who mass slaughtered and set people on fire and forced people across far away continents to convert to Christianity what about them were they Unchristian?

    Clearly wars in Christianity were justified and commanded by the Church throughout most of its history if we don't want to say all of it!!!

    It is so easy for you to preach about love in this age and time when so much wars and bloodshed was spilled across continents and when so much nations were conquered.

    The best part of this that all these stuff i mentioned continues to this day but under different name with much more devastating wars against the world weakest countries and by stealing the resources of nations in such destructive evil way and the armament coming from these same nations you pride yourself over..
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    @Noborders

    There is a flaw in your reasoning, which comes from islam, that I want to point out to you and let you think about.



    You say that islam teaches you to:

    - Love your enemies
    - Fight them only if they are a threat to you

    But, by definition, an enemy is someone who is a threat to you; otherwise, he or she wouldn't be an enemy.

    This leaves out the first option of loving them.
    HOLY QURAN 8:61:
    "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that Heareth and Knoweth (all things)."

    HOLY QURAN 2:190:
    Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

    HOLY QURAN 41:34:
    "Nor can Goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!"
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    If you put these in context you will realize that they are figures of speech. I'm not going to bother explaining each and every one, but to give you one example, when Jesus talks about a sword, he means it metaphorically: he knew that what he preached would create a divide between good and evil, and that those who embrace evil would persecute those who follow him. The sword he is talking about is a spiritual one. If he meant a real sword, he would have carried one, and he would have turned his disciples into a small army, instead of allowing his enemies to crucify him.
    If you have sense to understand and explain the violent verses in the Bible, but you simply grow horns and a tail and act like an intellectual zombie when it involves the Holy Quran, then you're mischievous. You aren't worthy of a discussion. You shouldn't even be dignified with a reply.
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    It's not wrong, dear. Read my reply to @Rachel Corrie .

    Many of us Christians grow up only learning the basics of our religion, so we don't know what to answer when people confront us with such verses. But I assure you there is nothing in those verses that contradicts our values, if you put them in context.
    Yes, nothing at all. Even when Jesus got whips and was literally flogging people in the temple. It was not a metaphoric or spiritual whip. He flogged people. He didn't plea with them or beg them to leave the temple. That was a man with 12 followers flogging people. Imagine if he had 12 thousand followers. He would've revolted against the Romans.

    All the prophets and their teachings are one. So dont come here to tell us Jesus (as) was a lamb. He wasnt. He lacked the means to carry out what Muhammad (s) did. All prophets were after justice and fairness and against oppression. None taught in favor of oppression.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    Yes, nothing at all. Even when Jesus got whips and was literally flogging people in the temple. It was not a metaphoric or spiritual whip. He flogged people. He didn't plea with them or beg them to leave the temple. That was a man with 12 followers flogging people. Imagine if he had 12 thousand followers. He would've revolted against the Romans.

    All the prophets and their teachings are one. So dont come here to tell us Jesus (as) was a lamb. He wasnt. He lacked the means to carry out what Muhammad (s) did. All prophets were after justice and fairness and against oppression. None taught in favor of oppression.
    If Muhammad were alive today, he'd be detained in Guantanamo Bay.
    Or maybe Roumieh...
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    The Quran and the Prophet Muhmmad peace be upon him teaches us over and over about مقابلة الإساءة بالإحسان .
    And consistency and patient is actually part of the Muslim way of life that leads to success as mentioned in the holy Quran many times.
    It is really sad that you never actually read the Quran.

    We differ of course on the understading and how.

    Self defence and self-determination as community where we determines our own statehood and our way of life as a community is must or our children might be lost!

    We can not allow the evildoers to control the community.

    So yes we can wish for others and for our enemies the good because for us goodness is to believe in la ilaha ila lah.
    Today you yourself might be bashing Islam but who knows what you will be tomorrow.. The guidance is from god almighty and he guides who ever he wants.

    So in that sense yes love your enemies and win the hearts of your enemies with goodness and good words.

    This is what the Sirah (biography) of prophet Muhammad A.S.W tells us and teaches us.

    But also common sense says if your enemies comes to fight your way of life and seek to destroy you then you must defend it back like many prophets did!

    This is what King David (A.S.W) with his mighty men fought for!
    the progression of islam went from peaceful to violent and intolerant as the prophet islam grew stronger. and this is acknowledged by all the scholars around the globe. so it becomes very normal that you will find peaceful verses in the quran, but they have unfortunately been abrogated by the violent ones that followed.

    the reality of the matter is that everything is ripe for the choosing. you can choose to rage a war and find a justification in the quran, the hadith and the sira, and you can choose to end a war and find a justification in the same books. the quran is the book that enables and fuels all sorts of contradictions within the spirit of man. in reality it is a book of strategic warfare. it resonates with some key features in muhamad's life, and in the human psyche in general; when you are weak you are subconsciously peaceful, and when you are strong, you become a tyrant without realizing it.

    the quran simply works to amplify your essence. if you are a good person by nature, you can find what you need to become better, but if you are an evil person, you can also find exactly what you seek in order to justify your evil and nurture it. and if you are a normal person on the fence between good and evil, it will put you in a schizophrenic state.

    there is no doubt that there is a very good side to islam, the problem however is that when it is observed in its totality not only does islam fail to produce a rather coherent message, but it rather constitutes a real threat to whoever does not blindly subscribe to your perspective.

    Well reality is not so easy!
    You have to deal with your enemies when they come to destroy you!

    The evildoers are here in this world for a reason and they are a fierce enemy who are very determined if you believe you can win them by opening your arms for them then go ahead take your chances and good luck with that.

    And don't get me wrong the devil will come back at you with opening arms as well this is how the devil deceives oh ya he is very patient he got his way to win people over as well.

    I guess I have read too many biblical and Quranic stories to look at in it this way!
    And nobody is talking about imposing the truth but the truth must be protected and must be guarded so it can be taught to the next generations.
    It must be easy to be found but if you do not protect it then the truth will be lost and it will be hard to find by the youth.[/quote]
    and yet all the pagan tribes that invaded rome and destroyed it became Christians all the way to the furthest corners of europe. and what do you call the ridda in islam? is this not a transgression against the very nature of truth? what truth are you safeguarding in pointing a knife to someone's throat and constantly threatening to slit their throats if they dare to leave?

    so on a side note, what if the devil has already deceived you? what is your process to know what is of the devil and what is of God? how exactly would you know? because quite frankly, you need to look back into that which is arrogantly posing as your sirat el moustaqim.. something to think about.

    You seems to forget what kind of world we live in and how important it is to bring up a healthy youth.
    i wonder what world you live in my dear friend. of all the people around the globe, the islamic youth are the ones suffering the most inadequacies, no matter which way you turn.

    As for "those who live by the sword will die by the sword"
    Dying fighting for a just cause is a honor in the eye of the believer so why do you have an issue with that?
    my only problem is that i give humanity too much credit. do you really not realize what is wrong with your statement? we fight to safeguard a better life for ourselves and our loved ones, not to receive honors in death nor to receive castles in heaven.

    And your point is?

    Actually as Muslims we have way more in common we can pray together facing the same qibla... we eat and drink the same way by saying bismillah.. we both say la ilaha ila lah muhamadun rassullaah, we both read from the same book the holy Quran.. we both go to pilgrim ye3ni the similarities are countless
    la2 bass smallah, very convincing. we didn't realize the similarities run that deep. man sell these jokes to the swedes or to someone who does not understand arabic and does not know of the history between the sunnis and the majous. oops i mean the shiaas.

    You keep talking about how badly Muslims treat each others yet you never think about how Christians treat each others just look how white evangelical Christians are treating the catholics coming from the south.. people are treating each others like shit everywhere.. wake up and start practice the love you preach :)
    the religion of the people coming up from the south has nothing to do with the reason why they should not be allowed into the united states. i am Catholic and i denounce mass migration.

    peace indeed :)
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    @Rachel Corrie and @Noborders

    Here are two articles that explain the cleansing of the temple, when Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers.

    Cleansing of the Temple | Word on Fire

    https://catholicexchange.com/deeper-meaning-story-jesus-moneychangers

    If you have sense to understand and explain the violent verses in the Bible, but you simply grow horns and a tail and act like an intellectual zombie when it involves the Holy Quran, then you're mischievous. You aren't worthy of a discussion. You shouldn't even be dignified with a reply.
    There is a difference between a parable and a command. No islamic scholar will claim that Mohammad's commands were not to be taken literally.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    All the prophets and their teachings are one. So dont come here to tell us Jesus (as) was a lamb. He wasnt. He lacked the means to carry out what Muhammad (s) did. All prophets were after justice and fairness and against oppression. None taught in favor of oppression.
    Not true. Jesus had twelve disciples but hundreds or thousands of followers. One of Jesus' disciples was called Simon the zealot. The zealots were a group of revolutionary jews who fought against the romans. So, if Jesus wanted fighting men, he could have used the zealots. However, He said: "give to Cesar what is due to Cesar and to God what is due to God;" and "my kingdom is not of this world."
     
    ignis

    ignis

    New Member
    Self-defense is a natural behavior and concept, having no need for any explicit divine inspiration or revelation, animals and all lowly creatures instinctively practice it without there being a prophet revealing it to them or guiding them to it. Loving one's enemies, however, is hardly natural or instinctive, it is defending others against the lepers (sinners, or apparent enemies) and/by treating/loving the lepers at the same time, and this entails that at the expense of one's self (self-sacrifice). Defending oneself and others - including the lepers - , against leprosy, even at the expense of one's self, is indicative of supernaturally/divinely inspired behaving human beings.

    Now, Islam itself believes that Allah's message to humanity is gradually revealed and is culminated ultimately in the Quran. Surely, to defend against leprosy one must first develop and experience the notion of defending against / containing the lepers for being transmitters of the disease (leprosy carriers and spreaders), but this wouldn't be fulfilled or completed or divinely sealed except if it culminates into loving and defending (i.e. including) the lepers, against leprosy, even at the expense of one's self. What kind of prophet would one be if not only does he not pave the way for this ultimate / divinely inspired / completed message, but frustrates it and attempts to reverse it or eliminate it for what it is, but a false, deceived and deceiving, one, a prophet of Satan?
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    A few points Nasser raised in his post, which I have researched upon and concluded the following (and you can also research indepthly):

    1. The punishment for apostasy, if it doesn't involve treason is not capital punishment.

    2. Illicit sex, whether homosexual or heterosexual is not capital punishment either.

    Both of these can be observed in the Quran and how the Quran does not promote capital punishment for apostates and illicit sex. Both issues are controversial among Muslim scholars and there are differences in opinion.
    Is this why Nasrallah said Muslims should have carried out the death fatwa against the "murtad" Salman Rushdie, the man who dared criticize the Quran?


    You say apostasy and homosexuality are not punishable by death in Islam, yet in every country that's governed by Sharia, be it Iran or Saudi Arabia, the punishment for apostasty is death. (And that includes conversion to another religion than Islam).

    Rechtsgutachten_betr_Apostasie_im_Islam-1.jpg
    Above is a legal opinion on apostasy by the Fatwa committee at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, concerning the case of a man who converted to Christianity: "Since he left Islam, he will be invited to express his regret. If he does not regret, he will be killed according to rights and obligations of the Islamic law." The Fatwa also mentions that the same applies to his children if they entered Islam and left it after they reach maturity.


    So please spare us all the nonsense about Islam being a religion of peace and tolerance.
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    @Rachel Corrie and @Noborders

    Here are two articles that explain the cleansing of the temple, when Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers.

    Cleansing of the Temple | Word on Fire

    https://catholicexchange.com/deeper-meaning-story-jesus-moneychangers



    There is a difference between a parable and a command. No islamic scholar will claim that Mohammad's commands were not to be taken literally.
    You can use whatever word you like. Parable, cleansing, canning, whipping, etc

    A leader of 12 followers went on an angry rampage and was whipping people. That's no spiritual cleansing. That's carnal punishment. Beating people is not a parable. It is a violent act.
     
    Lebanon_not_Arabic

    Lebanon_not_Arabic

    Well-Known Member
    Interesting

    سؤال جرئ: متى يحل دم إنسان في الإسلام ؟


     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    You can use whatever word you like. Parable, cleansing, canning, whipping, etc

    A leader of 12 followers went on an angry rampage and was whipping people. That's no spiritual cleansing. That's carnal punishment. Beating people is not a parable. It is a violent act.
    for some reason, you are under the impression that Goodness makes God meek and submissive. it is not the case. on several occasions Jesus indicated that the ugliest and unforgivable sins is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the disfiguration of Truth and graying the lines between good and evil. the temple is where the truth of God was announced to the people. what Jesus did in the temple was not to set an example for people to follow whenever they reach a disagreement, He specifically pointed a different path for humanity to solve its conflicts. you have to possess an understanding of the jewish religion and what the temple represents to know what the cleansing of the temple means and how the temple was in fact hollowed out and became meaningless with Jesus on the Cross, and why both merchants and live stock set for sacrifice were driven out.

    but regardless, it is always interesting that in these discussions most muslims actively search for what they consider to be the worst parts of the bible and often times present them out of context in order to justify the violence condoned within the history of islam and the corresponding belief system. the truth however remains that there is no justification for these acts of violence, suppression, and terror other than being a manifestation of the worst bits that humanity has to offer.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Is this why Nasrallah said Muslims should have carried out the death fatwa against the "murtad" Salman Rushdie, the man who dared criticize the Quran?


    You say apostasy and homosexuality are not punishable by death in Islam, yet in every country that's governed by Sharia, be it Iran or Saudi Arabia, the punishment for apostasty is death. (And that includes conversion to another religion than Islam).

    View attachment 11158
    Above is a legal opinion on apostasy by the Fatwa committee at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, concerning the case of a man who converted to Christianity: "Since he left Islam, he will be invited to express his regret. If he does not regret, he will be killed according to rights and obligations of the Islamic law." The Fatwa also mentions that the same applies to his children if they entered Islam and left it after they reach maturity.


    So please spare us all the nonsense about Islam being a religion of peace and tolerance.
    the one that got away.. (watch it on youtube)

     
    T

    Thoma

    New Member
    You can use whatever word you like. Parable, cleansing, canning, whipping, etc

    A leader of 12 followers went on an angry rampage and was whipping people. That's no spiritual cleansing. That's carnal punishment. Beating people is not a parable. It is a violent act.
    This is a clear case of clutching at straws, to say the least. The passage in question never mentions 'Jesus flogging or whipping people' which is just your own implication from a passage that hardly implies it. The existence of animals among the group that Christ drove out from the temple and Christ's character as reflected in all four Gospels, his apostles and followers both sufficiently serve in ascertaining the possibility that the whip was used solely/mainly on/for animals in driving them out as was and is normally the case. I call this detail/distinction not being explicitly stated poetic justice against the temple merchants, and a 'helping straw' for desperate drowning muslim apologists for one timeless tragicomic scene.

    Even if for argument's sake we grant that Jesus did hit some of the merchants with the whip while driving them and their cattle out, it's still hardly "Jesus flogging or whipping people' as in Mohammad-and-his-followers-style, and more like your mother or father driving unwelcomed guests and their cattle out of their backyard.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    You can use whatever word you like. Parable, cleansing, canning, whipping, etc
    What does the word parable have to do with the others? I did not use the word parable as a synonym of the others.

    A leader of 12 followers went on an angry rampage and was whipping people. That's no spiritual cleansing. That's carnal punishment. Beating people is not a parable. It is a violent act.
    If you bothered to read the links I provided, you would have realized Jesus did not whip people. He dispersed the sacrificial animals out of the temple to signal that no such sacrifice was necessary to please God.
     
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