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The True Horror of Islam

O Brother

O Brother

Legendary Member
the progression of islam went from peaceful to violent and intolerant as the prophet islam grew stronger. and this is acknowledged by all the scholars around the globe. so it becomes very normal that you will find peaceful verses in the quran, but they have unfortunately been abrogated by the violent ones that followed.
Again I advice you like I did with @Indie go read about when Christians were politically weak and when they gained political powers and started waging wars all over the world!

In this world the weak are not recognised by those with power..
and what is happening today to the Muslims world and other nations mostly in south will remind you of this!

the reality of the matter is that everything is ripe for the choosing. you can choose to rage a war and find a justification in the quran, the hadith and the sira, and you can choose to end a war and find a justification in the same books. the quran is the book that enables and fuels all sorts of contradictions within the spirit of man. in reality it is a book of strategic warfare. it resonates with some key features in muhamad's life, and in the human psyche in general; when you are weak you are subconsciously peaceful, and when you are strong, you become a tyrant without realizing it.
The reality is that the bible was used in the same way by the Church .. most religious books were used out of context for political reasons through out history until this very day the fun part that you want to point finger at others while you want to neglect the bloody history of your own Church and how they justified violence and wars against people who were not even waging wars on Christians!

there is no doubt that there is a very good side to islam, the problem however is that when it is observed in its totality not only does islam fail to produce a rather coherent message, but it rather constitutes a real threat to whoever does not blindly subscribe to your perspective.
I could say the same thing about Christianity, and there are many aspect of Christianity that I love and respect however I do recognize the sheep in wolf's clothing within the Church.

And I never subscribed blindly to Islam.. I subscribed to it with conviction and after many years of rebelling and questioning it!
The message of Islam is the only thing that make sense for me and for thousands of people maybe it constitute a real threat for your faith because Islam is much more logical and coherent for the people in their quests for the truth!


and yet all the pagan tribes that invaded rome and destroyed it became Christians all the way to the furthest corners of europe. and what do you call the ridda in islam? is this not a transgression against the very nature of truth? what truth are you safeguarding in pointing a knife to someone's throat and constantly threatening to slit their throats if they dare to leave?

so on a side note, what if the devil has already deceived you? what is your process to know what is of the devil and what is of God? how exactly would you know? because quite frankly, you need to look back into that which is arrogantly posing as your sirat el moustaqim.. something to think about.
So did many pagan tribes who waged wars on the Muslims adding to it Islam spreading through trade among other means.
And we don't shame the Islamic conquests unlike Christians who rarely like to shed light on how their religion spread all over the world.

Islam spread by many different means and when Islam was in power they showed way more tolerance comparing to when Christians were in power. Now in our modern times Christianity did become more tolerant with secularism taking over but at what expense? And what are the limits?
Like allowing same sex marriage is no the way! They are even trying to enforce it on Islam like they are doing on Christianity.
But again many true Christians will eventually rebel against secularism at least to some extent in my view because if things keeps going in this same direction then there wont be Christianity at all!

As for apostasy through out the history of the Muslim world it wasn't really applied..
Like in the time of Imamf Abu Hanifa he would debate many Atheists or those who denied any religion or prophethood.

Or take the famous poete Al Maari he was atheist and wrote many things against Islam and Shariah yet he died at very old age in his own home!

And again you speak like apostasy in Christianity was totally accepted and tolerated when in fact there was a long history of prosecution against it!

i wonder what world you live in my dear friend. of all the people around the globe, the islamic youth are the ones suffering the most inadequacies, no matter which way you turn.
This suffering is needed and good for our spiritual strengthening..
as we have lost our ways and we are in a quest to find what was lost!

As Muslims we must accept the will of god almighty and all the sufferings exist for the good reason.
When Banu Israel felt at their lowest and were suffering in Egypt many of them became tyrants and the transgressor many of them enjoyed living under pharaoh and in so many ways we have many Qarun alike in the Muslim world today... Many in the Saudi family fits in well with the story of Qarun and traitorhood..

Maybe you believe that suffering is a curse but as Muslims we can not believe that!
It is just part of the long journey!

my only problem is that i give humanity too much credit. do you really not realize what is wrong with your statement? we fight to safeguard a better life for ourselves and our loved ones, not to receive honors in death nor to receive castles in heaven.
The problem with your beliefs as Dark Angel (I don't want to say as Christian) is that you live for this world and not for the eternal life!

This world is not meant to be pleasant all the time! Tribulations will always exist in this world!
This world is life and death, peace and war, happiness and sorrow and so on!

la2 bass smallah, very convincing. we didn't realize the similarities run that deep. man sell these jokes to the swedes or to someone who does not understand arabic and does not know of the history between the sunnis and the majous. oops i mean the shiaas.
The similarities are more than you like them to be :)

You somehow love to be the devil in what differentiate and bring irrelevant stuff.. like your masters who armament extremists on both sides!

And yet again you speak like Christians are free from all this!
Christians have mass slaughtered each other like no other.. comparing to the war Christians waged against each others we would be amateurs!

the religion of the people coming up from the south has nothing to do with the reason why they should not be allowed into the united states. i am Catholic and i denounce mass migration.
I wasn't talking about whether they should be allowed or not! This is not the point!

Look how they are being treated.. look how they separate families and god knows what they are actually doing with these kids!
Do you honestly believe if these people where white with blue eyes they would treat them in the same way?

Many Evangelical Christians are known to be very racist and seriously hateful.
Also they are not big fans of the Catholic Church directly as they see them as a satanist cult.

And speaking about love and peace and all the biggest nations who mass produce mass killing weapons are both Christian nations!
Who both seems to forcibly divide the world into their camps and most wars if not all war are using their weapons!!!

And we speak about all this in time of peace what would happen in time of war? Allah yestourrr!

peace indeed :)
Yes peace.. we all gonna need it and you need more than anyone so PEACE out!
 
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  • Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Again I advice you like I did with @Indie go read about when Christians were politically weak and when they gained political powers and started waging wars all over the world!

    In this world the weak are not recognised by those with power..
    and what is happening today to the Muslims world and other nations mostly in south will remind you of this!



    The reality is that the bible was used in the same way by the Church .. most religious books were used out of context for political reasons through out history until this very day the fun part that you want to point finger at others while you want to neglect the bloody history of your own Church and how they justified violence and wars against people who were not even waging wars on Christians!



    I could say the same thing about Christianity, and there are many aspect of Christianity that I love and respect however I do recognize the sheep in wolf's clothing within the Church.

    And I never subscribed blindly to Islam.. I subscribed to it with conviction and after many years of rebelling and questioning it!
    The message of Islam is the only thing that make sense for me and for thousands of people maybe it constitute a real threat for your faith because Islam is much more logical and coherent for the people in their quests for the truth!




    So did many pagan tribes who waged wars on the Muslims adding to it Islam spreading through trade among other means.
    And we don't shame the Islamic conquests unlike Christians who rarely like to shed light on how their religion spread all over the world.

    Islam spread by many different means and when Islam was in power they showed way more tolerance comparing to when Christians were in power. Now in our modern times Christianity did become more tolerant with secularism taking over but at what expense? And what are the limits?
    Like allowing same sex marriage is no the way! They are even trying to enforce it on Islam like they are doing on Christianity.
    But again many true Christians will eventually rebel against secularism at least to some extent in my view because if things keeps going in this same direction then there wont be Christianity at all!

    As for apostasy through out the history of the Muslim world it wasn't really applied..
    Like in the time of Imamf Abu Hanifa he would debate many Atheists or those who denied any religion or prophethood.

    Or take the famous poete Al Maari he was atheist and wrote many things against Islam and Shariah yet he died at very old age in his own home!

    And again you speak like apostasy in Christianity was totally accepted and tolerated when in fact there was a long history of prosecution against it!



    This suffering is needed and good for our spiritual strengthening..
    as we have lost our ways and we are in a quest to find what was lost!

    As Muslims we must accept the will of god almighty and all the sufferings exist for the good reason.
    When Banu Israel felt at their lowest and were suffering in Egypt many of them became tyrants and the transgressor many of them enjoyed living under pharaoh and in so many ways we have many Qarun alike in the Muslim world today... Many in the Saudi family fits in well with the story of Qarun and traitorhood..

    Maybe you believe that suffering is a curse but as Muslims we can not believe that!
    It is just part of the long journey!



    The problem with your beliefs as Dark Angel (I don't want to say as Christian) is that you live for this world and not for the eternal life!

    This world is not meant to be pleasant all the time! Tribulations will always exist in this world!
    This world is life and death, peace and war, happiness and sorrow and so on!



    The similarities are more than you like them to be :)

    You somehow love to be the devil in what differentiate and bring irrelevant stuff.. like your masters who armament extremists on both sides!

    And yet again you speak like Christians are free from all this!
    Christians have mass slaughtered each other like no other.. comparing to the war Christians waged against each others we would be amateurs!



    I wasn't talking about whether they should be allowed or not! This is not the point!

    Look how they are being treated.. look how they separate families and god knows what they are actually doing with these kids!
    Do you honestly believe if these people where white with blue eyes they would treat them in the same way?

    Many Evangelical Christians are known to be very racist and seriously hateful.
    Also they are not big fans of the Catholic Church directly as they see them as a satanist cult.

    And speaking about love and peace and all the biggest nations who mass produce mass killing weapons are both Christian nations!
    Who both seems to forcibly divide the world into their camps and most wars if not all war are using their weapons!!!

    And we speak about all this in time of peace what would happen in time of war? Allah yestourrr!



    Yes peace.. we all gonna need it and you need more than anyone so PEACE out!
    Don't pretend we don't know. Your Oumma won't know peace until it has converted every single human on earth. Take your bullshit elsewhere habboub, you're talking to folks here who have fasfasoukon and 3ajanoukon.
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    Don't pretend we don't know. Your Oumma won't know peace until it has converted every single human on earth. Take your bullshit elsewhere habboub, you're talking to folks here who have fasfasoukon and 3ajanoukon.
    I'm not pretending anything..

    And Muslims can not convert anyone it goes against what we believe in and it is not our job to convert people this is not how it works in Islam because God is the one who guides!

    But we are supposed to invite people to Islam and it called دعوة‎ whether it is in time weakness or in time of strength!
    And in each particular condition there advantages and disadvantages!

    But of course if miraculously we the Muslims became powerful again and had the power to wage wars then the USA would be the first on the list such aggressor nation deserves to be conquered! Wouldn't that be natural thing to do by anyone? But hopefully we wouldn't play their devil games they love to play now days!

    But this converting every single person in the world BS is laughable if that what you want to believe then by all means you can believe that! ;)
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    i always appreciate your long answers. it goes without saying this subject is one of utmost importance to you, and thus i should point out that my replies are not meant to vex you or to shake your faith, but rather consider my posts to be a dissertation on veracity.

    Again I advice you like I did with @Indie go read about when Christians were politically weak and when they gained political powers and started waging wars all over the world!
    even if we assume your point about the change that occurred with Christians gaining political power to be true, it is still not comparable to the case with islam where that spirit was captured and embodied in the very scriptures and has become an integral part of the quran which is being followed to the letter by hundreds of millions of muslems around the globe.

    which brings us back to a major recurring point, you do not delineate between Christianity as doctrine, and between the behavior of some or many Christians across the ages. these are two separate things. what Christians did across the ages is not dictated by Christianity, however what the prophet muhamad did, is now embodied in the quran and the sira and the hadith.

    In this world the weak are not recognised by those with power..
    and what is happening today to the Muslims world and other nations mostly in south will remind you of this!
    your concept of weakness and strength needs to be revised. as i have pointed out earlier, when Christian rome was invaded and destroyed by the barbaric tribe of europe, Christianity still triumphed by converting all of barbaric europe against all odds. this is a recurring theme in Christianity, the crucified Christ was not the end, but rather the beginning of the triumph. and that is the situation with truth, it will always grow back from the ashes because it is intertwined with the universe and with our souls.

    but i am not sure why it matters to you to be recognized by those with power. you do whatever you need to do in this life to become a better person, and all the recognition you need will then flow from within you.

    The reality is that the bible was used in the same way by the Church .. most religious books were used out of context for political reasons through out history until this very day the fun part that you want to point finger at others while you want to neglect the bloody history of your own Church and how they justified violence and wars against people who were not even waging wars on Christians!
    again, the actions of some or many Christians are one thing, the teachings of Christianity is something else. you cannot demarcate the delineation between them and gray out the differences between the two different issues just to serve the point that everybody does the same. yes, all mankind shares the same human nature, but we differ on the path towards salvation. being born Christian does not make one automatically a saint, and being born muslim does not make one automatically a demon. yet the difference in the scriptures is very obvious, just as is the spirit with which each of these scriptures has been written, and this is the key issue.

    I could say the same thing about Christianity, and there are many aspect of Christianity that I love and respect however I do recognize the sheep in wolf's clothing within the Church.
    yes, and there are many of those unfortunately and we try our best to recognize them as well.

    And I never subscribed blindly to Islam.. I subscribed to it with conviction and after many years of rebelling and questioning it!
    The message of Islam is the only thing that make sense for me and for thousands of people maybe it constitute a real threat for your faith because Islam is much more logical and coherent for the people in their quests for the truth!
    that is a very subjective statement that is loaded with inaccuracies. one of the issues that most pious and good muslems suffer from is denial. do not worry, i will not hold it against you, it is very normal. islam may very well represent the right answer for many people around the globe, but you can rest assured that an objective search for truth will lead you elsewhere. and i am very willing to start this process with you from scratch, from the point of no conviction to the point of conclusion, step by step, in the spirit of true companionship. we can open a thread for that if you so wish and delineate the progression from step zero, the invitation is also open for atheists.

    So did many pagan tribes who waged wars on the Muslims adding to it Islam spreading through trade among other means.
    And we don't shame the Islamic conquests unlike Christians who rarely like to shed light on how their religion spread all over the world.
    as i have pointed out, if you live by the sword, you will be taken out by the sword, these are the rules of the earthly world we live in. if you do not find a shame in conquering people, massacring and enslaving millions, then you should. that denial will destroy your humanity, and could on the long run turn you into a monster yourself. veracity agrees that triumph in warfare has usually little to do with truth, in fact the strongest side is not often the righteous one. wasn't this the argument you were trying to drive a few lines before, complaining that "In this world the weak are not recognised by those with power.." you do not have the right to complain when you yourself exhibit no qualms and no shame about conquering and oppressing others.

    'quote]Islam spread by many different means and when Islam was in power they showed way more tolerance comparing to when Christians were in power. Now in our modern times Christianity did become more tolerant with secularism taking over but at what expense? And what are the limits?
    Like allowing same sex marriage is no the way! They are even trying to enforce it on Islam like they are doing on Christianity.
    But again many true Christians will eventually rebel against secularism at least to some extent in my view because if things keeps going in this same direction then there wont be Christianity at all![/quote]
    your notions are very disorganized and chaotic here. from the very first line about the myth of tolerant islam. so i would rather skip this part altogether.

    As for apostasy through out the history of the Muslim world it wasn't really applied..
    these lines should be reserved to those who do not know about the wards of ridda. the fact is that from the very beginning of islam people were not allowed to leave under the penalty of death, and they were subdued by force, even when they were not convinced. so come one my friend, you need to get your feet back on the ground.
    Like in the time of Imamf Abu Hanifa he would debate many Atheists or those who denied any religion or prophethood.
    and yet here are the teachings of the hanafi school, established by mr. abou hanifa himself:
    Hanafi – recommends three days of imprisonment before execution, although the delay before killing the Muslim apostate is not mandatory. Apostates who are men must be killed, states the Hanafi Sunni fiqh, while women must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam.[86] Penalty for Apostasy limited for those who cause Hirabah after leaving Islam, not for personal religion change.[87]
    Or take the famous poete Al Maari he was atheist and wrote many things against Islam and Shariah yet he died at very old age in his own home!
    every muslim you ask will tell you that islam is the religion of tolerance and peace, even the millions protesting in pakistan because asia bibi was not executed will give you that same answer.
    And again you speak like apostasy in Christianity was totally accepted and tolerated when in fact there was a long history of prosecution against it!
    i would make the opposite argument. many people do not leave Christianity nor do they deny Christ even when they know they will die for it, as has been recorded in history all the way from the early disciples, to the latest isis episodes. some beliefs cannot survive without keepng a sword pointed at the throats of their followers, other beliefs do not get renounced even when knives and swords run through the throats of the believers.

    This suffering is needed and good for our spiritual strengthening.. as we have lost our ways and we are in a quest to find what was lost!
    this is the kind of suffering i was referring to. the type that will lead you down to your own demise. did you really migrate to sweden to embrace this mentality my friend? honestly, seek help. take a step back from whoever is pushing these ideas in your mind. embrace your humanity away from the monstrosity you are uttering.

    As Muslims we must accept the will of god almighty and all the sufferings exist for the good reason.
    When Banu Israel felt at their lowest and were suffering in Egypt many of them became tyrants and the transgressor many of them enjoyed living under pharaoh and in so many ways we have many Qarun alike in the Muslim world today... Many in the Saudi family fits in well with the story of Qarun and traitorhood..

    Maybe you believe that suffering is a curse but as Muslims we can not believe that!
    It is just part of the long journey!

    The problem with your beliefs as Dark Angel (I don't want to say as Christian) is that you live for this world and not for the eternal life!

    This world is not meant to be pleasant all the time! Tribulations will always exist in this world!
    This world is life and death, peace and war, happiness and sorrow and so on!

    The similarities are more than you like them to be :)

    You somehow love to be the devil in what differentiate and bring irrelevant stuff.. like your masters who armament extremists on both sides!

    And yet again you speak like Christians are free from all this!
    Christians have mass slaughtered each other like no other.. comparing to the war Christians waged against each others we would be amateurs!

    I wasn't talking about whether they should be allowed or not! This is not the point!

    Look how they are being treated.. look how they separate families and god knows what they are actually doing with these kids!
    Do you honestly believe if these people where white with blue eyes they would treat them in the same way?

    Many Evangelical Christians are known to be very racist and seriously hateful.
    Also they are not big fans of the Catholic Church directly as they see them as a satanist cult.

    And speaking about love and peace and all the biggest nations who mass produce mass killing weapons are both Christian nations!
    Who both seems to forcibly divide the world into their camps and most wars if not all war are using their weapons!!!

    And we speak about all this in time of peace what would happen in time of war? Allah yestourrr!
    i think you have lost it a bit here. you are just rumbling for the most part, with all due respect :)

    Yes peace.. we all gonna need it and you need more than anyone so PEACE out!
    you still broker in earthly peace my friend.
    14 :27 سلاما اترك لكم سلامي اعطيكم ليس كما يعطي العالم اعطيكم انا لا تضطرب قلوبكم و لا ترهب
     
    O Brother

    O Brother

    Legendary Member
    i always appreciate your long answers. it goes without saying this subject is one of utmost importance to you, and thus i should point out that my replies are not meant to vex you or to shake your faith, but rather consider my posts to be a dissertation on veracity.
    This subject seems important for you as well :)
    Don't flatter yourself so much :smug: my faith for sure wont be shaken by what we say here.. it's not like anything new is being said here either..
    I see it more as your views and understandings vs mine as simple as that and no more..

    even if we assume your point about the change that occurred with Christians gaining political power to be true, it is still not comparable to the case with islam where that spirit was captured and embodied in the very scriptures that are being followed to the letter by hundreds of millions of muslems around the globe.

    which brings us back to a major recurring point, you do not delineate between Christianity as doctrine, and between the behavior of some or many Christians across the ages. these are two separate things. what Christians did across the ages is not dictated by Christianity, however what the prophet muhamad did, is now embodied in the quran and the sira and the hadith.

    Yes one must distinguish between Tanzil/revelations, the teachings and the actions of the followers.

    Our religion is not meant to be all about fancy nice words but more of dealing with realism and life in general.
    It is easy for us to say our faith is to love our enemies and stop at that point and no more meanwhile wars are being waged.

    Islam is a complete way of life, meaning everything must be dealt with let it be good and bad.
    Wars for instance is something very real in this world that must be dealt with and addressed so there must be regulations and laws on how to deal with it or how it is conducted!
    Or lets take crimes they are also very real and must be dealt by the laws and with considerations.

    In other words Islam or the Quran do not avoid certain topics so it can be more approving for certain people like the gentiles in Paul's case but by being strongly firm and complete and it doesn't shame out from the previous scriptures but it actually confirm them.
    As Christian following Paul's teachings you chose to neglect the Mosaic Law..

    This might be welcomed by many but these people would be lying to themselves in reality as all these stuff will always be dealt with!
    The Prophet Muhammad didn't do anything but confirm the old scripture and if you as Christian didn't neglect them then you wouldn't have a problem with him!

    your concept of weakness and strength needs to be revised. as i have pointed out earlier, when Christian rome was invaded and destroyed by the barbaric tribe of europe, Christianity still triumphed by converting all of barbaric europe against all odds. this is a recurring theme in Christianity, the crucified Christ was not the end, but rather the beginning of the triumph. and that is the situation with truth, it will always grow back from the ashes because it is intertwined with the universe and with our souls.

    but i am not sure why it matters to you to be recognized by those with power. you do whatever you need to do in this life to become a better person, and all the recognition you need will then flow from within you.

    It matter because when in time of weakness your weakness is recognized instead there would be lots of suffering and your enemies will try to humiliate you and even try eliminating you but if you are strong then your strength is recognized and considered very much!

    And again this recurring theme you speak of is to be found within the Muslim history as well and by much greater force and much greater destruction.. the Mongols swept large part of the Muslim world like Samarkand was completely destroyed and Baghdad was totally sacked yet Islam over lived it all and the invaders becoming Muslims themselves.

    And in many ways most likely Muslims will overcome what they are going through today.

    that is a very subjective statement that is loaded with inaccuracies. one of the issues that most pious and good muslems suffer from is denial. do not worry, i will not hold it against you, it is very normal. islam may very well represent the right answer for many people around the globe, but you can rest assured that an objective search for truth will lead you elsewhere. and i am very willing to start this process with you from scratch, from the point of no conviction to the point of conclusion, step by step, in the spirit of true companionship. we can open a thread for that if you so wish and delineate the progression from step zero, the invitation is also open for atheists.
    I could say the same thing about you as well.. this is why everyone have different beliefs.
    In my journey I came to the conclusion that Islam is the truth while you came to the conclusion that Jesus died for your sins!
    Islam makes more sense for me and Christianity makes more sense to you.. what more is there to it?

    With Christianity I'm simply not convinced with Paul nor with trinity..

    your notions are very disorganized and chaotic here. from the very first line about the myth of tolerant islam. so i would rather skip this part altogether.
    sure.. sure...

    these lines should be reserved to those who do not know about the wards of ridda. the fact is that from the very beginning of islam people were not allowed to leave under the penalty of death, and they were subdued by force, even when they were not convinced. so come one my friend, you need to get your feet back on the ground.

    i would make the opposite argument. many people do not leave Christianity nor do they deny Christ even when they know they will die for it, as has been recorded in history all the way from the early disciples, to the latest isis episodes. some beliefs cannot survive without keepng a sword pointed at the throats of their followers, other beliefs do not get renounced even when knives and swords run through the throats of the believers.
    The Ridda battles were mostly about some tribes not wanting to pay Zakat to the new Khalifa and some Mushriks claiming prophethood a revolt in the early period after the death of the prophet but this revolt was simply crushed!

    These events are a topic in themselves

    and yet here are the teachings of the hanafi school, established by mr. abou hanifa himself:
    Hanafi – recommends three days of imprisonment before execution, although the delay before killing the Muslim apostate is not mandatory. Apostates who are men must be killed, states the Hanafi Sunni fiqh, while women must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam.[86] Penalty for Apostasy limited for those who cause Hirabah after leaving Islam, not for personal religion change.[87]

    every muslim you ask will tell you that islam is the religion of tolerance and peace, even the millions protesting in pakistan because asia bibi was not executed will give you that same answer.

    i would make the opposite argument. many people do not leave Christianity nor do they deny Christ even when they know they will die for it, as has been recorded in history all the way from the early disciples, to the latest isis episodes. some beliefs cannot survive without keepng a sword pointed at the throats of their followers, other beliefs do not get renounced even when knives and swords run through the throats of the believers.
    Yes, it is known that most if not all mazahib agrees on the punishment apostasy but still through out history it was rarely applied..

    this is the kind of suffering i was referring to. the type that will lead you down to your own demise. did you really migrate to sweden to embrace this mentality my friend? honestly, seek help. take a step back from whoever is pushing these ideas in your mind. embrace your humanity away from the monstrosity you are uttering.
    How did this end up with me emigrating?
    Why do you always go in circles to end it with this?
    We are talking about suffering in general then you turn it about me out of nowhere!

    I'm not the one who is suffering but children who are dying from hunger and from bombs raining on them at the same time the Paulinist send their Love Drones dropping their lovely Bibles on them..

    Or enforcing economical sanctions on nations making sure children suffer among other things!

    i think you have lost it a bit here :) you are just rumbling here :)
    Lets just say that you cant bother answering all of that because some points are just hard to argue against?
    So avoiding it all together is so much easier! My advice next time do not make statements about the Shia/Sunni divisions out from nowhere as your history is not so much better within Christianity with all the wars they waged on each others!


    you still broker in earthly peace my friend.
    14 :27 سلاما اترك لكم سلامي اعطيكم ليس كما يعطي العالم اعطيكم انا لا تضطرب قلوبكم و لا ترهب
    Beautiful verse.. the earthly peace is in total submission to the almighty merciful creator..

    And in the hereafter
    إِلَّا قِيلًا سَلَامًا سَلَامًا - 56:26
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I see a contradiction in the post

    While you start with :

    I don’t want to discuss Abrahamic religions in their original forms as they were ‘revealed’ thousands of years ago, as that doesn’t concern me and is not related to this topic.
    You then situate this discussion within an analysis of a text that is 1400 years old


    Below some quotations of some verses (Surat AlTawbah) that indicates what was previously mentioned:

    فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلاَ يَقْرَبُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ إِن شَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

    قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ
    Can you clarify how this quoted text from the Quran does not discuss one of the Abrahamic religions in their origins?
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    The Quran and the Prophet Muhmmad peace be upon him teaches us over and over about مقابلة الإساءة بالإحسان .
    And consistency and patient is actually part of the Muslim way of life that leads to success as mentioned in the holy Quran many times.
    It is really sad that you never actually read the Quran.

    We differ of course on the understading and how.

    Self defence and self-determination as community where we determines our own statehood and our way of life as a community is must or our children might be lost!

    We can not allow the evildoers to control the community.

    So yes we can wish for others and for our enemies the good because for us goodness is to believe in la ilaha ila lah.
    Today you yourself might be bashing Islam but who knows what you will be tomorrow.. The guidance is from god almighty and he guides who ever he wants.

    So in that sense yes love your enemies and win the hearts of your enemies with goodness and good words.

    This is what the Sirah (biography) of prophet Muhammad A.S.W tells us and teaches us.

    But also common sense says if your enemies comes to fight your way of life and seek to destroy you then you must defend it back like many prophets did!

    This is what King David (A.S.W) with his mighty men fought for!
    حقاً أنه بوست مسخرة
    How are you suggesting that imposing your own narrow understanding of:
    مقابلة الإساءة بالإحسان
    to mean an Islamic State is I7ssan to start with
    Are you real, or do you project some delusions and make these delusional posts sound like what Muslims believe.
    I did not hear anyone but you coming up with an argument of the sort. Can you provide us with quotes from the Sira that spoke of self-determination for example.
    I also want to read at least one text from the Quran in which Mohamed is speaking to a group called Muslims or Muslimoun and is asking then for self-determination.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    It is important to situate Islam within its historical contexts and before we start speaking or discussing it as rational agents.

    1- Mohamed did not claim that he was the Prophet of Islam. Throughout the Quran, which is the text attributed to Mohamed we see الله speaking to Mohamed. Mohamed himself does not say anything in the Quran.

    2- The elect group in the Quran is not called Muslims. It is called المؤمنون. This word does not mean believers, but means those who have faith. It included Nassara and Jews who did not have to convert to a new religion called Islam.

    3- المؤمنون was the identity of the community until the reign of Al Ma'moun. This group which were Nassara and Jews who had faith that Mohamed is the Prophet of the Jews prophesized by Malachi in the Tanakh being the prophet that would bring peace between Judeans and Israelites.

    4- The main message of Mohamed to the Jews was that Jesus was the Messaiah, and that he was not God.

    Islam and Muslims on the other hand was the identity that was constructed by the Persian Seljuks in Nishapur in Iran.

    1- This stage was when al-Mutawakel adopted the Shafeii sect which was produced in Iran to consolidate the faith under the law of the sovereign Muslim Sultan.

    2- In Khorasan and Nishapur the Hadith of the Prophet was written 300 years after his death to replace the Book of Moses being the book of law and construct the Muslim Shari'a, which Mohamed himself did not write. But Persians in Khorassan like Muslim, Bukhari and Tabari.

    3- the old faith of المؤمنون was considered heretical and was targeted by several military campaigns to impose the consolidated central Muslim identity and law by Salahudin al-Ayoubi, and the Mongoles both imposed the Shafeii sect over the population of Syria and Iraq.

    4- Islam is a political concept that creates a division between Christianity, Judaism and Muslims. This religion was not the product of either the Quran or Mohamed, but of the Seljuks who were Persians from Khorassan.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

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    It is important to situate Islam within its historical contexts and before we start speaking or discussing it as rational agents.

    1- Mohamed did not claim that he was the Prophet of Islam. Throughout the Quran, which is the text attributed to Mohamed we see الله speaking to Mohamed. Mohamed himself does not say anything in the Quran.

    2- The elect group in the Quran is not called Muslims. It is called المؤمنون. This word does not mean believers, but means those who have faith. It included Nassara and Jews who did not have to convert to a new religion called Islam.

    3- المؤمنون was the identity of the community until the reign of Al Ma'moun. This group which were Nassara and Jews who had faith that Mohamed is the Prophet of the Jews prophesized by Malachi in the Tanakh being the prophet that would bring peace between Judeans and Israelites.

    4- The main message of Mohamed to the Jews was that Jesus was the Messaiah, and that he was not God.

    Islam and Muslims on the other hand was the identity that was constructed by the Persian Seljuks in Nishapur in Iran.

    1- This stage was when al-Mutawakel adopted the Shafeii sect which was produced in Iran to consolidate the faith under the law of the sovereign Muslim Sultan.

    2- In Khorasan and Nishapur the Hadith of the Prophet was written 300 years after his death to replace the Book of Moses being the book of law and construct the Muslim Shari'a, which Mohamed himself did not write. But Persians in Khorassan like Muslim, Bukhari and Tabari.

    3- the old faith of المؤمنون was considered heretical and was targeted by several military campaigns to impose the consolidated central Muslim identity and law by Salahudin al-Ayoubi, and the Mongoles both imposed the Shafeii sect over the population of Syria and Iraq.

    4- Islam is a political concept that creates a division between Christianity, Judaism and Muslims. This religion was not the product of either the Quran or Mohamed, but of the Seljuks who were Persians from Khorassan.
    since you cannot be mistaken, then probably the khurassan people also wrote surat al 3imran in the quran.
    إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ ۗ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْعِلْمُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ ۗ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ (19) فَإِنْ حَاجُّوكَ فَقُلْ أَسْلَمْتُ وَجْهِيَ لِلَّهِ وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِ ۗ وَقُل لِّلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْأُمِّيِّينَ أَأَسْلَمْتُمْ ۚ فَإِنْ أَسْلَمُوا فَقَدِ اهْتَدَوا ۖ وَّإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ الْبَلَاغُ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِالْعِبَادِ
     
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    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    2- The elect group in the Quran is not called Muslims. It is called المؤمنون. This word does not mean believers, but means those who have faith. It included Nassara and Jews who did not have to convert to a new religion called Islam.

    3- المؤمنون was the identity of the community until the reign of Al Ma'moun. This group which were Nassara and Jews who had faith that Mohamed is the Prophet of the Jews prophesized by Malachi in the Tanakh being the prophet that would bring peace between Judeans and Israelites.

    4- The main message of Mohamed to the Jews was that Jesus was the Messaiah, and that he was not God.

    Islam and Muslims on the other hand was the identity that was constructed by the Persian Seljuks in Nishapur in Iran.

    1- This stage was when al-Mutawakel adopted the Shafeii sect which was produced in Iran to consolidate the faith under the law of the sovereign Muslim Sultan.

    2- In Khorasan and Nishapur the Hadith of the Prophet was written 300 years after his death to replace the Book of Moses being the book of law and construct the Muslim Shari'a, which Mohamed himself did not write. But Persians in Khorassan like Muslim, Bukhari and Tabari.

    3- the old faith of المؤمنون was considered heretical and was targeted by several military campaigns to impose the consolidated central Muslim identity and law by Salahudin al-Ayoubi, and the Mongoles both imposed the Shafeii sect over the population of Syria and Iraq.

    4- Islam is a political concept that creates a division between Christianity, Judaism and Muslims. This religion was not the product of either the Quran or Mohamed, but of the Seljuks who were Persians from Khorassan.
    since you cannot be mistaken, then probably the khurassan people also wrote surat el 3imran in the quran.
    إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ ۗ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْعِلْمُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ ۗ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ (19) فَإِنْ حَاجُّوكَ فَقُلْ أَسْلَمْتُ وَجْهِيَ لِلَّهِ وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِ ۗ وَقُل لِّلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْأُمِّيِّينَ أَأَسْلَمْتُمْ ۚ فَإِنْ أَسْلَمُوا فَقَدِ اهْتَدَوا ۖ وَّإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ الْبَلَاغُ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِالْعِبَادِ

    since you cannot be mistaken, then probably the khurassan people also wrote surat el 3imran in the quran.
    إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ ۗ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْعِلْمُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ ۗ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ (19) فَإِنْ حَاجُّوكَ فَقُلْ أَسْلَمْتُ وَجْهِيَ لِلَّهِ وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِ ۗ وَقُل لِّلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْأُمِّيِّينَ أَأَسْلَمْتُمْ ۚ فَإِنْ أَسْلَمُوا فَقَدِ اهْتَدَوا ۖ وَّإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ الْبَلَاغُ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِالْعِبَادِ


    Islam in this context mean monotheist. King David, Abraham, Joseph, Jesus and Jacob are called Muslim to G.d in the Quran. This means monotheists.This is in relation to first verse.

    The second verse does not depart from King David seeking the face of G.d in the Psalms.

    The word الدِّينَ means the law. It is a Hebrew word. It appears in the Quran in the story of Joseph when he entered in
    دين الملك

    Iranian theology uses two texts from the Quran to manipulate the original message, one is أطيعوا الله و أطيعوا الرسول. Here they make the claim that the obedience of the Prophet is obedience of the Hadith which was written in Iran. Whoever does not obey would then be persecuted.

    The verse you mentioned is used to make the claim that Mohamed came with Islam as the law, but the verse clearly says that the law to G.d is Islam. This is the law to G.d is monotheism not the law of the Sultan.

    Islam is the law of the Sultan in its understanding of the sectarian groups which were written in Iran, mainly Shafeii and Twelver Shi'a.
     
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    Mighty Goat

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    إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ ۗ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْعِلْمُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ ۗ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ (19) فَإِنْ حَاجُّوكَ فَقُلْ أَسْلَمْتُ وَجْهِيَ لِلَّهِ وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِ ۗ وَقُل لِّلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْأُمِّيِّينَ أَأَسْلَمْتُمْ ۚ فَإِنْ أَسْلَمُوا فَقَدِ اهْتَدَوا ۖ وَّإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ الْبَلَاغُ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِالْعِبَادِ
    And yes the Koran has been manipulated. The older Mu'tazelah faith until al Ma;moun believed that the Quran was created by men, and this was the main reason for their persecution as heretics by the Iranian imposed and consolidated Shafeii sect along with the Quran they wrote to stay in government.

    The Quran was altered to suit the whims of Muslim Sultans.

    The first stage of its alteration was during the Umayyad Abdul Malek Ben Marwan who adopted the Niqud system from Hebrew to dott the Syriac Quran. The original Quran was written in Syriac, which is the ancient and undotted Arabic. Certainly this is not the Quran of Mohamed. I mean the dotted Quran is not.

    Several narratives about the inaccuracy of the Quran also exist about the Quran which was collected by Othman and this is why it is called مصحف عثمان. This is not Mohamed.

    We do not know where is the text that Mohamed preached.
     
    Apostate

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    I see a contradiction in the post

    While you start with :



    You then situate this discussion within an analysis of a text that is 1400 years old




    Can you clarify how this quoted text from the Quran does not discuss one of the Abrahamic religions in their origins?
    The 'today' mainstream interpretations still take every single verse as a source of regulation. Therefore, it is as of today.
    While interpretations of other religions have evolved with time, Islam, unfortunately, remained the same. And even Muslims who do not adhere to every strict instruction, they still acknowledge its validity and proclaim that it is divinely inspired.

    And since they take every verse as a source of regulation, I also said this:

    In other words, even in its most moderate mainstream interpretations it is not a religion for self. It is a religion that actively seeks imposing its ideas on others, even by means of physical and/or psychological abuse or threats, and even financial abuse when they’re in power (by means of Jizya).
    And that is what is being practiced in muslim societies, when they have the power to do so.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    The 'today' mainstream interpretations still take every single verse as a source of regulation. Therefore, it is as of today.
    While interpretations of other religions have evolved with time, Islam, unfortunately, remained the same. And even Muslims who do not adhere to every strict instruction, they still acknowledge its validity and proclaim that it is divinely inspired.

    And since they take every verse as a source of regulation, I also said this:



    And that is what is being practiced in muslim societies, when they have the power to do so.
    It is better if we can read these interpretations from modern sources, it would be more appealing to argue with than taking the text without knowing what are the theological sources are saying. I think.
     
    Apostate

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    Your will, my hands.
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    It is better if we can read these interpretations from modern sources, it would be more appealing to argue with than taking the text without knowing what are the theological sources are saying. I think.
    Be my guest. Go ahead and let us know :)

    I wonder how badly someone can misinterpret the obvious.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    Be my guest. Go ahead and let us know :)

    I wonder how badly someone can misinterpret the obvious.
    I am not interested in such interpretations, but quoting a text which is 1400 years old does not tell us how the clergy is using it, I believe that this is the argument you are presenting. I will bring sources to support every claim I am making in my posts for sure.
     
    Iron Maiden

    Iron Maiden

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    So @Mighty Goat it’s safe to say that, according to what u hav posted, today’s quran is just a piece if doctered stories suited to the needs and aspirations of the rulers of the societies conquered by mohamed and his followers, and theres nothing ‘divine’ abt it asmuslims claim
     
    Apostate

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    Your will, my hands.
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    And yes the Koran has been manipulated. The older Mu'tazelah faith until al Ma;moun believed that the Quran was created by men, and this was the main reason for their persecution as heretics by the Iranian imposed and consolidated Shafeii sect along with the Quran they wrote to stay in government.

    The Quran was altered to suit the whims of Muslim Sultans.

    The first stage of its alteration was during the Umayyad Abdul Malek Ben Marwan who adopted the Niqud system from Hebrew to dott the Syriac Quran. The original Quran was written in Syriac, which is the ancient and undotted Arabic. Certainly this is not the Quran of Mohamed. I mean the dotted Quran is not.

    Several narratives about the inaccuracy of the Quran also exist about the Quran which was collected by Othman and this is why it is called مصحف عثمان. This is not Mohamed.

    We do not know where is the text that Mohamed preached.
    So God have sent a messenger to deliver his last and most important message to mankind. However, circumstances made the original book disappear and what we have is an altered version by rulers for political gains.

    If God is to send a divine message, and can't make sure that it is preserved for generations to see it. I wonder if we should take that 'divine' message seriously to begin with.
     
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