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The Vatican, the Catholic And Christians Churches

Is the Vatican under Pope Francis

  • Too much interfering in politics

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • Too much leftist

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • Too much anti capitalist

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • Is doing a great job

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • Is doing a Middle job

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • Is doing a bad job

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • Is defending the poor and the environment

    Votes: 4 40.0%
  • It’s position on immigration negative

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • It’s position on immigration positive

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • The pope is a saint in his private life

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • The pope is an inspirational figure

    Votes: 7 70.0%
  • Pope Francis while a saintly figure is wrong in his opposition to populist leaders like Trump or Lig

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • It’s a scandal the Pope refuse to receive Populist Government in Italy

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • Pope refusal of Abortions is great

    Votes: 4 40.0%
  • Pope acceptance not to condemn people and to give second chances even for abortions supporters is ??

    Votes: 4 40.0%

  • Total voters
    10

Iron Maiden

Paragon of Bacon
Orange Room Supporter
@Indie: You just hand-waved serious social and women's rights issues, and downplayed violence against women in Lebanon and even worldwide, all in favour of a baseless accusation and a personal attack. You operate exactly like a rape apologist. You even dare to pretend to advocate for women's rights, while having the nerve to play victim in a hijacking conspiracy. You're so thoroughly selfish and dishonest, you're not even worth debating. You should be ashamed of yourself, and you owe all your sisters whom have suffered and still suffer under real rapists and are still being denied help because of selfish and arrogant people in power like yourself a very deep and sincere apology.

@Iron Maiden: Learn to read. I neither said nor think that Aoune32! condones rape, and strangely enough it wasn't even the only point I brought up, but cherry-picking and straw men are too convenient for you. I was merely offering him perspective which he obviously lacked. Shit, you're talking to the wrong person anyway. Why don't you ask Indie if she supports abortion rights for women rape victims instead. But you already know the answer, and you simply felt the urge to troll. What a ****ing shame.
Go fish, 2 of your 5 points were abt rape victims, one was asking if aoune32 was female, another was asking if he was rich and one abt losing sovereignty over his body.

As an objective reader i cannot respon to 3 of your question, he will have to do it for himself.

I responded to 2 of your more objective wuestions abt alluding that non pro willy-nilly abortion people condone the devastating effects of rape. So ma tetzeka/e ;)

If abortion was only to save women from the stigma of rape and what it entails, i’d be the first one virtue signalling on this forum, but sadly its not, its just a hobby for people who act foolishly with no afterthought for their actions. Aka killing for fun. And make me pay for their actions.

As for indie i already know her stance and dont necessarily agree with everything, but at least she tries and formulate am argument before distributing shame posters right and left.

So help me out here, what is your pov and arguments exactly? Lets stablish the frontier befote we launch the hostilities :)
 

Thawra # Furoshima

Well-Known Member
@Indie: You just hand-waved serious social and women's rights issues, and downplayed violence against women in Lebanon and even worldwide, all in favour of a baseless accusation and a personal attack. You operate exactly like a rape apologist. You even dare to pretend to advocate for women's rights, while having the nerve to play victim in a hijacking conspiracy. You're so thoroughly selfish and dishonest, you're not even worth debating. You should be ashamed of yourself, and you owe all your sisters whom have suffered and still suffer under real rapists and are still being denied help because of selfish and arrogant people in power like yourself a very deep and sincere apology.

@Iron Maiden: Learn to read. I neither said nor think that Aoune32! condones rape, and strangely enough it wasn't even the only point I brought up, but cherry-picking and straw men are too convenient for you. I was merely offering him perspective which he obviously lacked. Shit, you're talking to the wrong person anyway. Why don't you ask Indie if she supports abortion rights for women rape victims instead. But you already know the answer, and you simply felt the urge to troll. What a ****ing shame.
You should be ashamed of yourself
You don’t respect Women specially the most exquisite Lady in this forum Indie
You are a religious hater
 

proIsrael-nonIsraeli

Legendary Member
I am not a Catholic and my opinion probably wouldn't matter much, but it seems natural to allow Catholic priests to marry.
That should stop or at lest dramatically decrease ~2000 years of pedophilia and homosexuality.
 

Thawra # Furoshima

Well-Known Member
I am not a Catholic and my opinion probably wouldn't matter much, but it seems natural to allow Catholic priests to marry.
That should stop or at lest dramatically decrease ~2000 years of pedophilia and homosexuality.
I might agree with that
I m concerned about the high number of gay priests in the Church
Most of them are decent persons who respect their mission but there is a problem with some of them
 

butters

Well-Known Member
Go fish, 2 of your 5 points were abt rape victims, one was asking if aoune32 was female, another was asking if he was rich and one abt losing sovereignty over his body.

As an objective reader i cannot respon to 3 of your question, he will have to do it for himself.

I responded to 2 of your more objective wuestions abt alluding that non pro willy-nilly abortion people condone the devastating effects of rape. So ma tetzeka/e ;)

If abortion was only to save women from the stigma of rape and what it entails, i’d be the first one virtue signalling on this forum, but sadly its not, its just a hobby for people who act foolishly with no afterthought for their actions. Aka killing for fun. And make me pay for their actions.

As for indie i already know her stance and dont necessarily agree with everything, but at least she tries and formulate am argument before distributing shame posters right and left.

So help me out here, what is your pov and arguments exactly? Lets stablish the frontier befote we launch the hostilities :)
@Iron Maiden. The "fun hobby" argument is bullshit and you know it. Ask any woman you know who's had an abortion, if it was a "fun" procedure. Go ahead, I'll wait. Meanwhile, please explain to me why you think women willingly opt for something invasive and painful with a lot of unpleasant side effects, physical and oftentimes emotional, when they could--- are you ready for this??? USE A CONDOM INSTEAD and not have to go through any of that shit, not to mention avoid racking up insane costs that their insurance probably doesn't even cover. Be honest here, does that sound to you like a reasonable argument with any basis in reality?

This "fun hobby" bullshit is nothing more than a harmful shaming tactic. People want to shame others for having fun that they'll never have, because they're jealous and full of shit, so they portray it in the most heinous way possible (baby killing) when in reality people would much rather use latex which doesn't cost $300 a pop, doesn't mutilate you, and doesn't creep into your taxes. The real harm comes when you systemically shame the act of love making to the point where people avoid discussing it until it spontaneously happens which, ironically, results in more unwanted pregnancies and abortions, not less.

So explain to me then: why should rape survivors have to suffer for the sake of other people's petty bullshit? How could you even guarantee that the victims will have the mental and financial stabilities to endure raising a child? If not, doesn't that imply that both the mother and the child will be proper ****ed up?

Better still: do you believe that the same people lobbying to deny them healthcare would ever offer them the financial support they would need?

My POV: no one has to suffer, no one has to endure pain, no one has to put up with any shame. Make abortion legal and accessible for those who want it and let them take full responsibilities for their personal decisions. And last but not least, return bodily sovereignty to women without exception, lest you once again throw rape victims in the darkness.
 

joseph_lubnan

Legendary Member
This is not a discussion about rape and rape is not relevant to this. This is about women's control and choice over their bodies.

Like I said before, so long the child is inside a woman's body she should be able to make her own decisions and live with them. No law or church should have any control over her decision.

It doesn't matter and it is irrelevant how the pregnancy occurred.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
@Indie: You just hand-waved serious social and women's rights issues, and downplayed violence against women in Lebanon and even worldwide, all in favour of a baseless accusation and a personal attack. You operate exactly like a rape apologist. You even dare to pretend to advocate for women's rights, while having the nerve to play victim in a hijacking conspiracy. You're so thoroughly selfish and dishonest, you're not even worth debating. You should be ashamed of yourself, and you owe all your sisters whom have suffered and still suffer under real rapists and are still being denied help because of selfish and arrogant people in power like yourself a very deep and sincere apology.

Unlike you, I actually am a woman, and I know very well the wolves in sheeps' clothing who usurp terms like "women's rights" in order to take advantage of women.
 

joseph_lubnan

Legendary Member
Unlike you, I actually am a woman, and I know very well the wolves in sheeps' clothing who usurp terms like "women's rights" in order to take advantage of women.
Im not one of those wolves, I fully support equal rights for women, and I am more feminist than you :)

There is no such thing as "women's rights" "equality between men and women" for they have no more rights than any other groups, and they are certainly and obviously not men :) the correct cause is for "equal rights"
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I am not a Catholic and my opinion probably wouldn't matter much, but it seems natural to allow Catholic priests to marry.
That should stop or at lest dramatically decrease ~2000 years of pedophilia and homosexuality.

If the issue was celibacy, 80% of the clergy victims wouldn't be boys and young men. They would be women.
 

joseph_lubnan

Legendary Member
If the issue was celibacy, 80% of the clergy victims wouldn't be boys and young men. They would be women.
I don't care what causes them to molest children, I am more interested in seeing them exposed, arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and I am interested in seeing the church insititution held accountable and liable in court for protecting and condoning these criminal acts. I am also interested in an awareness campaign about these dangerous criminal acts against innocent children, so parents are better informed and take better precaution as they expose their children to this institution that covers and condones the molestation of children.
 

butters

Well-Known Member
@butters adding the rape argument only serve to confuse the issue. It doesn't matter how the pregnancy occurred, it's about women's choice after it ocurrs.
...which people refuse to recognize (and probably never will), unless you try to give them examples where failing to do so results in gross injustice and a violation of their human rights. Get it? That's called advocacy, and the subject is women's right to choose. If you're still confused/disturbed, then I really don't know what else to tell you.
 

joseph_lubnan

Legendary Member
...which people refuse to recognize (and probably never will), unless you try to give them examples where failing to do so results in gross injustice and a violation of their human rights. Get it? That's called advocacy, and the subject is women's right to choose. If you're still confused/disturbed, then I really don't know what else to tell you.
I understand that :)
Just saying it is a narrow case and it detracts from the broader issue. The point is that even if people concede that it's ok in case of rape, what about all the other cases? Fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter how the pregnancy happened.

Besides, some women may choose to keep the baby in a rape case, and it is their choice as well. I understand that rape and incest examples are good short cuts to bring people closer to your point of view but I don't think they are effective or conducive to the real and important argument.
 

Thawra # Furoshima

Well-Known Member
I don't care what causes them to molest children, I am more interested in seeing them exposed, arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and I am interested in seeing the church insititution held accountable and liable in court for protecting and condoning these criminal acts. I am also interested in an awareness campaign about these dangerous criminal acts against innocent children, so parents are better informed and take better precaution as they expose their children to this institution that covers and condones the molestation of children.
So you want to hold the whole church accountable
So if 1,5 billion member of the Church and 98 percent of priests and bishops and nuns have nothing to do with these accusations
You want to punish them all
You are anti religious
First fihmak much Kawi
If you say that the guilty and those who protected them should be prosecuted than we all agree
 

joseph_lubnan

Legendary Member
So you want to hold the whole church accountable
So if 1,5 billion member of the Church and 98 percent of priests and bishops and nuns have nothing to do with these accusations
You want to punish them all
You are anti religious
First fihmak much Kawi
If you say that the guilty and those who protected them should be prosecuted than we all agree
Sure the church is an institution, and it knowingly and systematically covered vile illegal crimes against children. It should be held accountable under the law.
 

Thawra # Furoshima

Well-Known Member
Sure the church is an institution, and it knowingly and systematically covered vile illegal crimes against children. It should be held accountable under the law.
So you want to punish innocent people because I m Catholic and I haven’t molested anyone in my life ; I am a member of the Church like 1,5 billion people
So you are not different than Stalin or Hitler or Nero who persecuted millions of People because of their Religion
 

joseph_lubnan

Legendary Member
So you want to punish innocent people because I m Catholic and I haven’t molested anyone in my life ; I am a member of the Church like 1,5 billion people
So you are not different than Stalin or Hitler or Nero who persecuted millions of People because of their Religion
Not you :)
The church is an institution and it is responsible and accountable for its actions under the law.
 

Thawra # Furoshima

Well-Known Member
Not you :)
The church is an institution and it is responsible and accountable for its actions under the law.
You mean if one priest committed molestation the Church should pay financial compensation
I will agree with this
But let’s say one priest committed mollestation he should go to jail
If his bishop knew he should also be jailed
But let’s say his bishop didn’t know
Are you calling for that Bishop if he is innocent to be jailed
 

Iron Maiden

Paragon of Bacon
Orange Room Supporter
@Iron Maiden. The "fun hobby" argument is bullshit and you know it. Ask any woman you know who's had an abortion, if it was a "fun" procedure. Go ahead, I'll wait. Meanwhile, please explain to me why you think women willingly opt for something invasive and painful with a lot of unpleasant side effects, physical and oftentimes emotional, when they could--- are you ready for this??? USE A CONDOM INSTEAD and not have to go through any of that shit, not to mention avoid racking up insane costs that their insurance probably doesn't even cover. Be honest here, does that sound to you like a reasonable argument with any basis in reality?

I am all for personnal freedom, so if your argument is about Accepting abirtiin for someone eho got raped or is risking death due to the pregnancy then by jove am all for it.

The simple truth is that these cases are nowhere near the najority of abortion cases.
Most are done by recidivist women who have plenty of unprotected sex. Plenty of other ways to hav sex.
Its not natural that by the age of 22 a woman has already had 7 abortions. And believe there are lots of those.

This "fun hobby" bullshit is nothing more than a harmful shaming tactic. People want to shame others for having fun that they'll never have, because they're jealous and full of shit, so they portray it in the most heinous way possible (baby killing) when in reality people would much rather use latex which doesn't cost $300 a pop, doesn't mutilate you, and doesn't creep into your taxes. The real harm comes when you systemically shame the act of love making to the point where people avoid discussing it until it spontaneously happens which, ironically, results in more unwanted pregnancies and abortions, not less.
Asking people to be responsible by using protection is not shaming them. You are doing them a disservice when you tell them its okay there’s always a way out no matter how ugly it is.

So explain to me then: why should rape survivors have to suffer for the sake of other people's petty bullshit? How could you even guarantee that the victims will have the mental and financial stabilities to endure raising a child? If not, doesn't that imply that both the mother and the child will be proper ****ed up?
Again with the rape survivors. They are a minority and i already pointed out that it should be acceptable in the case of a forced/criminal pregnancy.

Better still: do you believe that the same people lobbying to deny them healthcare would ever offer them the financial support they would need?
The money can be used to teach people abt safe sex practices. People have the right to ask where their taxes are going, and killing babies is something i do not wish to pay for.

My POV: no one has to suffer, no one has to endure pain, no one has to put up with any shame. Make abortion legal and accessible for those who want it and let them take full responsibilities for their personal decisions. And last but not least, return bodily sovereignty to women without exception, lest you once again throw rape victims in the darkness.

I am not gonna talk abt rape again, but the sovereignty point is unterresting.
Lets say a couple is having loving consensual sex, accidental pregnancy happens, the woman does not want to have the baby but the man does, why is this accidental act only under the sovereignty of the eoman. She was doing a consensual act and knew the risks.

Or the other way around, accidental pregnancy and the woman wants the baby but the man doesnt, why do you want to force him to pay alimony for something he doesnt want?

Is it moral to force any of thise two cases just because the sovereignty if the wman’s body?
 
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