The Way to Building a Secular Lebanon and Secular Constitution and System

[Rafidi]

The Lebanese constitution states that the "Lebanese state has no religion". Therefore, the National Pact is unconstitutional and therefore an illegal pact. Legally, anyone can become president, PM or speaker. The sectarian/confessional system goes against the secular nature and spirit of the Lebanese constitution. Therefore, in my humble estimation, Lebanon requires a new modern constitution that will modernize the system and remove religion and sectarianism from the public life.

If you are to add a clause in a new constitution, what will that clause be?

If I were to add a clause, I believe this will be a good start:

"All Lebanese are born equal and are to be treated as equal citizens in front of the law irrespective of sect, religion, gender, sex, sexual preference/orientation, color, class, political affiliation and/or any form of differentiation that may set one person apart from the other".

I would also have this in the constitution:

"A modern grading system for public employment shall be set into law and effect whereby the Lebanese individuals with the best brains who merit employment based on their test results shall be given preference and not based on any other discriminating factors such as religious, sectarian or political affiliation".

And I would also like to have this:

"All marriages conducted in Lebanon will be officially registered under one civil law/code. Religiously conducted marriages are a personal choice in places of worship or in private settings and are of no value or consequence in the sight of the common law".

We have this too:

"The Lebanese constitution guarantees the rights of every person to freely express himself and associate. This includes, but not limited to freedom of speech, religion and political affiliation".

Please add your clauses to our fictional secular constitution you would love to see come into reality.

 

[Patriot]

Counter proposal

document the national pact as written law in the constitution
define the norms (a3raf) and add them to the constitution as well

 

[Rafidi]

Counter proposal

document the national pact as written law in the constitution
define the norms (a3raf) and add them to the constitution as well

Your post and proposal are an antithesis to this thread. Therefore off topic. You can start a new thread on that and give it whatever sectarian title you wish.

 

[Rafidi]

"The Lebanese constitution guarantees, without any conditions, the right of citizenship to every person born of a Lebanese father or mother, within or outside Lebanon and to every legal immigrant, who has legally lived or work in Lebanon for a period of five years".

 

[flag-waver]

Why wasnt the constitution like one common marriage law approved when the country was under syrian occupation?
The constitution says to remove political sectarianism once a senate and admin decentralization. Ya3ne l sects byetamano and then sectarian allotment in Parliament is removed.
Second, the election law 7ata law mch sectarian there will be no way the christians, sunni or druze will allow proportional on one district. This is not done anywhere in the world and it wont be done in Leb.
10 districts 14 districts no sect allotment no problem. It will be the same as now. I am for doing a population census and each district gets MPs depending of the size of the district.
The senate needs to be created and there needs to be a rotation between the orthodox, catholic and druze.
Once this is done with admin decentralization i dont care about who becomes speaker, president or PM bas 3a sharet. The sect that takes 1 of them cant take the other 2.

 

[flag-waver]

"The Lebanese constitution guarantees, without any conditions, the right of citizenship to every person born of a Lebanese father or mother, within or outside Lebanon and to every legal immigrant, who has legally lived or work in Lebanon for a period of five years".

Your joking here. Those in Tripoli masalan women have married syrian and palestinian men. Half of Tripoli are married to them
You add them and add their children to their you have no Lebanese left.

 

[Ice Tea]

Impossible to have secularism with Muslims, especially Middle Eastern ones. We all know what they mean by 'secularism'.

 

[Rafidi]

Why wasnt the constitution like one common marriage law approved when the country was under syrian occupation?
The constitution says to remove political sectarianism once a senate and admin decentralization. Ya3ne l sects byetamano and then sectarian allotment in Parliament is removed.
Second, the election law 7ata law mch sectarian there will be no way the christians, sunni or druze will allow proportional on one district. This is not done anywhere in the world and it wont be done in Leb.
10 districts 14 districts no sect allotment no problem. It will be the same as now. I am for doing a population census and each district gets MPs depending of the size of the district.
The senate needs to be created and there needs to be a rotation between the orthodox, catholic and druze.
Once this is done with admin decentralization i dont care about who becomes speaker, president or PM bas 3a sharet. The sect that takes 1 of them cant take the other 2.

This an improvement from you.

We hope you can learn some democratic and secular values after living in Australia for thousands of years and bring those values to contribute in building a modern Lebanon. The Lebanese who have experienced progressive and modern societies should be the hope of Lebanon to modernize. Those stuck inside Lebanon have not seen another option than the version of the Lebanon they were born into. We can have a better version and a modern one of a Lebanon for and of the future.

We must accept that the western countries can act as a role model for us, to accommodate diversity and inclusion and separating religion from the state. The western countries have fought their religious wars and concluded that religion is a vehicle for increasing spiritual and not conflict, and therefore should be a private and not public or political affair.

Most times, when secularism is talked of, many get the wrong ideas from both extremes. For example, Muslims see secularism as a Christian reserve. And Christians in Lebanon see the west with a religious lens and not with a secular lens, and they imagine secularism in Lebanon is meant to threaten their existence. The christian in Lebanon tends to be more sectarian than the average Muslim. Of course, this can be understood from the perspective that the Christians naturally feel more threatened and endangered. Granted. However, notions and mentality need to be corrected and laws amended. If there is no official government moves and efforts to enlighten the public and lead us to building a modern state, we will continue to be stuck in this retrogressive state for another hundred years with the constant threat of another civil war. Lebanon can become a role model for coexistence and tolerance, diversity and inclusion and secularism - not the fake coexistence mixed with hatred and sectarian rivalry we currently have in place and we use to boast with to the outside world, who do not know the reality on ground.

Secularism is not anti religion. It is inclusion and accommodating diversity. It is accepting the fact that we are different in some ways and we can agree to relegate those ways we differ on to the back seat and build a state based on what we all believe in and agree on: being Lebanese and Lebanon as a country for all its citizens without any forms of discrimination. Our differences should not act as obstacles to life but as private affairs and should be displayed and take prominence in private settings.

I hope I am making some sense.

 

[Rafidi]

Your joking here. Those in Tripoli masalan women have married syrian and palestinian men. Half of Tripoli are married to them
You add them and add their children to their you have no Lebanese left.

Exaggeration. But if it were true, I do not mind. Even though they are not from my community.

 

[Rafidi]

Impossible to have secularism with Muslims, especially Middle Eastern ones. We all know what they mean by 'secularism'.

The Zionist mole on this forum. Your mission is apartheid and division, racism and genocide. This thread is not meant for you. Find another thread meant for whitewashing israehell's apartheid regime. Now gerrout! Bye.

 

[Iron Maiden]

How would you handle polygamy in this new secular state?

How would u handle honor killing?

How would you handle alcohol?

 

[lebanese1]

lets start by banning sectarian countries like KSA and Iran from funding and arming the parties of their sects in Lebanon

 

[Rafidi]

How would you handle polygamy in this new secular state?

The same as homosexuality. This is my own opinion. After all different secular countries have different outlook on things and laws.

Both homosexuality and polygamy will be decriminalized, but have no legal status. Demo criminalized but not legalized. It is kind of a neutral outlook. Government should be sin-blind.

For example, gay unions do not have legal status. However, if a citizen chooses that path, he would not be discriminated against but also his union would not be recognized under the law. Discriminating against a Lebanese on any basis, including sexual preference should be against the law. Gay union or marriage is a privilege that can be campaigned for and later be granted or not granted.

As for polygamy, the law will regard only the first registered wedding. Subsequent wives cannot be married legally in a civil court or under common law.

How would u handle honor killing?

This is a tribal practice. It is simply murder. Perpetrators would be killed for killing, if we continue having capital punishment, or they can face life imprisonment for murder.

How would you handle alcohol?

A non issue in my opinion. Many so called Muslims drink. Even in their areas or in their homes. It should be a private choice and freedom granted to those who want to drink or deal with alcohol. If the people are truly holy and observant of their faith, they require no one to compel them to drink or not to drink. After all, we are taught "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made manifest from falsehood". I have come across staunch Christians and atheists who do not drink. And ironically, I have come across Muslims who drink. They even stop praying under the excuse that they can't stop drinking "for now". We are not holy as a nation as we pretend to be. We have transformed religion into a vehicle to promote division and evil and not a vehicle to promote spirituality and virtue and charity. Personally, even if you drop me into an ocean of alcohol and cigarettes, I will NEVER drink or smoke. I even detest smoking more than drinking. I see them as unhealthy habits and expending to poison one's own health.

 

[Rafidi]

lets start by banning sectarian countries like KSA and Iran from funding and arming the parties of their sects in Lebanon

This would be a good move to stop foreign influence.

And hopefully, this can be practicalized once we have our own internal source of income from oil and gas.

 

[Ice Tea]

This an improvement from you.

We hope you can learn some democratic and secular values after living in Australia for thousands of years and bring those values to contribute in building a modern Lebanon. The Lebanese who have experienced progressive and modern societies should be the hope of Lebanon to modernize. Those stuck inside Lebanon have not seen another option than the version of the Lebanon they were born into. We can have a better version and a modern one of a Lebanon for and of the future.

We must accept that the western countries can act as a role model for us, to accommodate diversity and inclusion and separating religion from the state. The western countries have fought their religious wars and concluded that religion is a vehicle for increasing spiritual and not conflict, and therefore should be a private and not public or political affair.

Most times, when secularism is talked of, many get the wrong ideas from both extremes. For example, Muslims see secularism as a Christian reserve. And Christians in Lebanon see the west with a religious lens and not with a secular lens, and they imagine secularism in Lebanon is meant to threaten their existence. The christian in Lebanon tends to be more sectarian than the average Muslim. Of course, this can be understood from the perspective that the Christians naturally feel more threatened and endangered. Granted. However, notions and mentality need to be corrected and laws amended. If there is no official government moves and efforts to enlighten the public and lead us to building a modern state, we will continue to be stuck in this retrogressive state for another hundred years with the constant threat of another civil war. Lebanon can become a role model for coexistence and tolerance, diversity and inclusion and secularism - not the fake coexistence mixed with hatred and sectarian rivalry we currently have in place and we use to boast with to the outside world, who do not know the reality on ground.

Secularism is not anti religion. It is inclusion and accommodating diversity. It is accepting the fact that we are different in some ways and we can agree to relegate those ways we differ on to the back seat and build a state based on what we all believe in and agree on: being Lebanese and Lebanon as a country for all its citizens without any forms of discrimination. Our differences should not act as obstacles to life but as private affairs and should be displayed and take prominence in private settings.

I hope I am making some sense.

I'm afraid so called Lebanese Muslims in the West are not really an example for anyone to follow, considering they are more criminal and violent than Afghans and Iraqis even. Lebanese Christians in the West do extremely well and they are one of the most outspoken anti-Muslim groups out there.

If Lebanese Christians are 'sectarian' for worrying about their existence in their native lands, then what does that make Muslims who all support terrorist organizations in a way or another? Of course Lebanese Christians will never trust Muslims, given everything Christians in MENA have faced in the hands of Muslims. Why should Lebanese Christians believe so called Lebanese Muslims are the ONLY exception in the Muslim world and different from the rest? Throughout history they've proved they are not.

 

[lebanese1]

This would be a good move to stop foreign influence.

And hopefully, this can be practicalized once we have our own internal source of income from oil and gas.

foreign funding of PARTIES (AND NOT THE STATE) have nothing to do with oil and gas.

 

[Rafidi]

lets start by banning sectarian countries like KSA and Iran from funding and arming the parties of their sects in Lebanon

We can also have this clause:

"It is illegal for any member of a Lebanese political party to meet or cooperate with government officials of another country. Political dealings between Lebanon and other countries should be carried out exclusively with the Lebanese government and its ministers".

 

[lebanese1]

We can also have this clause:

"It is illegal for any member of a Lebanese political party to meet or cooperate with government officials of another country. Political dealings between Lebanon and other countries should be carried out exclusively with the Lebanese government and its ministers".

Awesome!

Would HA who said that all their money, food, clothes, medications etc.come from Iran agree to this?

 

[Rafidi]

Awesome!

Would HA who said that all their money, food, clothes, medications etc.come from Iran agree to this?

The problem of Lebanon presently is the fact that the Muslim parties are no longer eager to change the sectarian system. Once Taef got them a share of the pie, they now feel relaxed. So the interest of the people and the country are not considered with urgency as it used to before taef. The present sectarian system suits sectarian parties. That is why there is need for change.

With Lebanon having source of income from oil and gas, our politicians will have some respect for themselves and stop humiliating the image of the country by seeking the aid of other countries and begging.

The role of Hezballah would be discussed. The military and the political roles would have to be separated. The military role would have to be agreed upon by the state as a national requirement to protect the borders and deter the Zionist menace on our southern border. There should be some framework to make politics be politics and military be military. The two should not be mixed in a modern state. Whether hezballah becomes a unit of the military or is given some sort of national recognition like the PMU in Iraq.

 

[joseph_lubnan]

Awesome!

Would HA who said that all their money, food, clothes, medications etc.come from Iran agree to this?

There was a point when FPMers in this forum were arguing vehemently that HA is closer to the secular project than any other party in Lebanon
Just to remind you lest you forget